Hypothetically speaking...

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I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
 
I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
Why in the world waste time on meaningless trivia like this, when there is so much important that can be discussed. The problem with something like this would be that someone new would come in down the line and think that this could be serious. I certainly would not want to mislead anyone, so would not take part in this discussion.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
The Siri theory has been disproved–please contact the Catholic newspaper Catholic Family News. They did an article totally refuting the Siri theory. Please ask them to email or send it to you—It should put all your ideas to rest. Since the Siri theory is incorrect and the Post vatican II Popes are valid you need not answer the other questions-----TAKE A DEEP BREATH—😃
 
I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
Not again!!! Throw this theory in the bin!
 
The Siri theory has been disproved–please contact the Catholic newspaper Catholic Family News. They did an article totally refuting the Siri theory. Please ask them to email or send it to you—It should put all your ideas to rest. Since the Siri theory is incorrect and the Post vatican II Popes are valid you need not answer the other questions-----TAKE A DEEP BREATH—😃
I did not see that article but I did see an article arguing against that article you speak of here: thepopeinred.com/defense.htm

I’ll probably ask CFN to email me their article though.

I’m not saying I believe in the Siri thesis, but I was just wondering what it would mean if it was true in regards to my previous questions.

What bugs me too is that I received the Eucharist last Sunday while questioning if my own baptism was valid. Did I sin by doing that?
 
What bugs me too is that I received the Eucharist last Sunday while questioning if my own baptism was valid. Did I sin by doing that?
No need to worry. Even if the Priest’s ordination was invalid, it would not nullify your Baptism. Anyone can baptise validly, even a lay person or a heretic.
 
Exactly. I mean, I consider myself a traditionalist but seriously this is wack job conspiracy stuff.
DITTO, and proud of you, Hijikata. This kind of stuff is what puts Traditionalist in a bad light.
It seems the ones fighting SOOOO hard to overthrow Rome, is the ones in these positions of excommunications. I do hope the Pope will make a decision VERY soon.

The Catholic Church has been fought against since it’s beginning. Now with the allegations being thrown at them by certain groups who are all over the internet, the Church is facing ANOTHER Crisis. One that these groups, themselves, have fabricated.

I pray that all “will endure till the end” as spoken of in the Bible.

Please EVERYONE, BELIEVE what Jesus said…
“The gates of Hell will not prevail” Stay true to the ONE AND ONLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. Do not listen to anything that makes your faith waver in any way.👍
 
I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
ANYTHING that causes confusion is fathered by the FATHER OF CONFUSION-Satan. Don’t let confusion upset you. Just don’t believe any of it. Keep your faith. 😃
 
I really need some guidance here…

Alright, today my thoughts on this subject, which I am about to say, has really started to haunt me. So, I need some kind of closure here.

This thread is not to debate about whether or not the Siri Thesis is true.

I’m only saying that…

Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that the Siri Thesis is true. And I only say this because it seems plausible, and if the three days of darkness prophecy is true then obviously at some point in time whether it be now or in the future an antipope would have to of taken the papacy in order for the holy spirit to pick a “true” pope.

So, if the Siri Thesis is true then does that mean that:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
  2. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
  3. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
My main concern is that I fear my baptism may not of been valid since it was done by an NO priest. - I was thinking that if the Siri Thesis is true then could it be possible that my baptism is not valid? It is really bugging me and I might already have scruples and so that coupled with this is kinda driving me nuts…
First, the validity of your baptism does not depend upon the person conferring the baptism. As Pax et Caritas pointed out, baptism can be validly conferred by a non-catholic, even a pagan. So, you can rest easy there.

I’m not going to debate the Siri thesis with you because you don’t want to debate and it would pull us into a debate on sedevacantism, which is against forum rules. I will address your other questions, but please be aware that the Siri thesis can be disproven, and I’m merely addressing these as hypothetical questions.

Also, the Siri thesis can refer to several different ideas, so I’m not sure which variation of it is the one that’s concerning you. However, let’s take a look at your questions in a broad sense:
  1. The Cardinals of today are not valid Cardinals?
If the position was conferred by someone who was not a valid pope, then no, such men would not be cardinals.
  1. Some Catholic priests today are not valid priests? And if that is the case then which priests are valid?
Even if they were following an invalid pope, this would not invalidate their ordinations. Now, the ordination ceremony has been changed since Vatican II, so some people have tried to claim that it is invalid, but they cannot prove this, nor do they have any authority to do so. Therefore, even if the Siri thesis were true (which it’s not) it does not follow that new priests could be declared invalid.
  1. Vatican II was not valid? And if that is the case then are all NO Masses not valid and only TLM Masses are valid?
If both Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI weren’t real popes, then Vatican II wouldn’t have been valid. However, this fact would still have no effect on the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. Even if it had been promulgated by an invalid pope, this would not either, in itself, invalidate that form of the Mass. You would have to prove that it had been changed so much that it no longer conveyed the same essential meaning, and only a pope can make that determination.

Please keep in mind that this is all just to show you some problems with making assumptions. The Siri thesis is false, but even it were true, the issues that have been raised have logical problems of their own.

I hope this helps get you thinking critically about all this. God bless.
 
No need to worry. Even if the Priest’s ordination was invalid, it would not nullify your Baptism. Anyone can baptise validly, even a lay person or a heretic.
Great! Does the same go for my confirmation?
First, the validity of your baptism does not depend upon the person conferring the baptism. As Pax et Caritas pointed out, baptism can be validly conferred by a non-catholic, even a pagan. So, you can rest easy there.

I’m not going to debate the Siri thesis with you because you don’t want to debate and it would pull us into a debate on sedevacantism, which is against forum rules. I will address your other questions, but please be aware that the Siri thesis can be disproven, and I’m merely addressing these as hypothetical questions.

Also, the Siri thesis can refer to several different ideas, so I’m not sure which variation of it is the one that’s concerning you. However, let’s take a look at your questions in a broad sense:

If the position was conferred by someone who was not a valid pope, then no, such men would not be cardinals.

Even if they were following an invalid pope, this would not invalidate their ordinations. Now, the ordination ceremony has been changed since Vatican II, so some people have tried to claim that it is invalid, but they cannot prove this, nor do they have any authority to do so. Therefore, even if the Siri thesis were true (which it’s not) it does not follow that new priests could be declared invalid.

If both Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI weren’t real popes, then Vatican II wouldn’t have been valid. However, this fact would still have no effect on the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. Even if it had been promulgated by an invalid pope, this would not either, in itself, invalidate that form of the Mass. You would have to prove that it had been changed so much that it no longer conveyed the same essential meaning, and only a pope can make that determination.

Please keep in mind that this is all just to show you some problems with making assumptions. The Siri thesis is false, but even it were true, the issues that have been raised have logical problems of their own.

I hope this helps get you thinking critically about all this. God bless.
Thank you cam for addressing my questions. I need not to worry about my confirmation then either, right? The variation I am referring to is the one in which Siri picked a successor before he died. The Apostolic Succession can never be broken, right?

Of course, I believe with the rest of you that the gates of hell will not prevail. But if the Three Days of Darkness prophecy is true then at some point a false pope will enter the picture. Also, the other prophecies mention about the Church will be in a eclipse. Not to mention the approved Fatima message which states that, “the Great Apostasy will begin at the top”.

It seems at some point in time something will be or already has gone terribly wrong with the papacy.
 
Great! Does the same go for my confirmation?

Thank you cam for addressing my questions. I need not to worry about my confirmation then either, right?
Unlike baptism, confirmation must be administered by a bishop or by a priest designated by the bishop. A person with an invalid ordination cannot administer the sacrament. However, as I pointed out earlier, even if the Siri thesis were true, you could not assume that your bishop was invalid.

The Church instructs us to always assume that sacraments are valid unless we have a good reason to suspect them. This is partly because sacraments depend upon the intention of the one who confers them, and we can never know for sure what a person was thinking. So, you could get suspicious about ANY particular administration of a sacrament, but that would not be beneficial. We are supposed to trust in Divine Providence because God does not try to trick us into damnation.
The variation I am referring to is the one in which Siri picked a successor before he died. The Apostolic Succession can never be broken, right?
There are several variations of this supposed scenario. I think you are referring to the one in which Cardinal Siri was supposedly elected to the papacy, but prevented from pubicaly announcing it. Instead, Cardinal Roncalli was presented as Pope John XXIII. The story then goes on to say that Siri kept this secret all his life and chose his own successor who is also a secret pope.

The problem is that the Church was constituted by Christ as a visible society, and this cannot be changed. Thus, the Church cannot have a “secret pope”. Such a pope would not be able to fulfill his office, since he couldn’t be leading a Church that didn’t know him. It is for this reason that a Pope is considered valid if he is acknowledged as such by the Church as a whole.

There are many rules that must be followed to elect a pope, and throughout history, these rules have been broken. The Church, however, has always considered the elected men as valid once they are accepted because universal acceptance is evidence of a valid pope.

Thus, Pope John XXIII must be considered the valid pope, because it is not permitted to go back after the fact (especially since he is now dead) and declare his papacy invalid. You can understand why this is so if you consider this example: Suppose you decided that Pope Pius IX was not a valid pope. (Yes, some have claimed this). If this type of thinking was permitted, you could then dismiss the First Vatican Council, because he called that council. You could also deny the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, because he proclaimed that doctrine. Now, the Church says that you must accept this doctrine or you are a heretic. But, if you denied the validity of the pope who proclaimed it, you could deny the doctrine.

You can see how you end up removing yourself from the Church by taking this path. That is why the Church says that the matter of a particular papacy being valid is not a matter of debate once that pope has been accepted by the Church as a whole. Once that occurs, we have Divine Assurance that he is the vicar of Christ.

Now what of Cardinal Siri being “hushed”? Even if he had been elected (and we have no proof that he was), he failed to publicly proclaim this, allowed Pope John XXIII to be acknowledged, and also publicly supported Pope John XXIII as the Pope. Thus, even if he had been elected, he effectively resigned from the papacy.
 
Very good post #12 by Cam 100. Informative, POLITE, and to the point.
Thanks for your kindness:D
 
Very good post #12 by Cam 100. Informative, POLITE, and to the point.
Thanks for your kindness:D
Thank you for the kind words. I think it is important to show people that they are not the only ones who have run across ideas such as these, yet have found them to be lacking. All too often, people who encounter these ideas and are concerned by them are dismissed, and they feel that the only ones who really understand them are the ones who are promoting these incorrect ideas! This just reinforces their interest in these notions. It is like becoming part of an elite group that possesses secret knowledge.
 
Great! Does the same go for my confirmation?

Thank you cam for addressing my questions. I need not to worry about my confirmation then either, right? The variation I am referring to is the one in which Siri picked a successor before he died. The Apostolic Succession can never be broken, right?

Of course, I believe with the rest of you that the gates of hell will not prevail. But if the Three Days of Darkness prophecy is true then at some point a false pope will enter the picture. Also, the other prophecies mention about the Church will be in a eclipse. Not to mention the approved Fatima message which states that, “the Great Apostasy will begin at the top”.

It seems at some point in time something will be or already has gone terribly wrong with the papacy.
Please FORGET all this rubbish.
 
In regards to Siri supposedly choosing a successor - Popes don’t choose their succesors. They are chosen by a Conclave.

Even if Blessed John XXIII himself was an invalid Pope, the cardinals who chose his successor (Paul VI) in conclave after John XXIII died were certainly NOT invalid, or at least not enough of them to affect the result of the Conclave.

Remember John XXIII was only in office for five years, not like he had nearly time to appoint a whole new invalid College of Cardinals or anything like, so the choice of Paul VI was perfectly valid.
 
I agree with Auntie M and Cam100 above. While we may think (rightly) that the Siri Theory is “rubbish”, it is best to take a calm and reasoned approach to answering these questions. People who ask in good faith are in danger of being led astray – and invective and contempt does not serve to bring people to the light.

There is a similar thing about the moon landings supposedly being a hoax, covered up by the US Gov’t. A particular show on this conspiracy theory depicted claims of “evidence” that the landings were faked, based on analysis of the photos from Apollo 11.

While I have no doubt about the moon landings, it did not help that NASA did not address these points, or point to a place where such refutations could easily be found. To me, it does not help to say, “This has already been addressed, we’re not playing this game anymore”; while this may be true – that these are old questions – they are in fact made new again by the fact that they are new questioners who may not have had access to the answers. If you don’t have the time or inclination to answer, then kindly say “This has been addressed here and here and here. If you have any more questions that have not been addressed, please refer them to us.”

It’s the same when we hear the same old tired saws about Catholicism from critics. The questions are not always motivated by malice, but by ignorance (refer to Abp Fulton Sheen’s comment on Catholicism vs what people think is Catholicism). We need patience to deal with might very well be a fear of being wrong – literally, *damned *wrong. And we’re not talking about moon landings or Roswell or D.B. Cooper; we are talking about people’s souls.

I admit I myself have had “whit if…” fears. And kind reassurance with patient guidance through Scripture, the Church Fathers, the Catechism, etc, has done (and will do) more to allay my fear and strengthen my faith than sneers, contempt, and dismissal. Apostle Thomas doubted; after all that time with Jesus Himself, he still doubted; and yet, Jesus did not slap him upside the head or roll His eyes or sigh with exasperation. He invited Thomas to touch Him in His own wounds, to see for himself.

Why are we so unkind to those who are no worse than an Apostle? Why are we ourselves unwilling to act like our own Saviour? To love each other, as He loves us? To assume good faith on the part of the doubter, and to treat that doubt with patience and our own good faith?

I’m not saying this as some holier-than-thou; my reaction is almost always knee-jerk, sarcastic, cynical, sigh-shrug-eyeroll; and then I read replies, like those above, that are patient, kind, informative, and chock full o’ caritas.

[/soapbox]
 
I would like to thank you, cam, again and to all who have addressed my concerns. I think it is best to assume that papacy is legit today since I have no sure way of knowing either way.

But according to the Fatima prophecy, the three days of darkness, and other prophecies pertaining to the eclipse of the Church, it seems something will be going wrong eventually to the papacy.

Again, thank you all.
 
I would like to thank you, cam, again and to all who have addressed my concerns. I think it is best to assume that papacy is legit today since I have no sure way of knowing either way.

But according to the Fatima prophecy, the three days of darkness, and other prophecies pertaining to the eclipse of the Church, it seems something will be going wrong eventually to the papacy.

Again, thank you all.
Yes, there are many prophecies that predict hard times for the pope. Yet I know of none from approved sources that actually say that the papacy will essentially disappear.

In any event, we must always place our trust in the teachings of the Church over ANY of these prophecies. The Church teaches us infallibly. All prophecies after the apostles are categorized by the Church as private revelations and are never infallible. This applies even to widely-known prophecies such as Fatima. Even though the person transmitting the prophecy might be a saint, they are not protected from making a mistake. Sometimes prophecies are later mistranslated. They could also be simply misunderstood. Take a look at this article on private revelations from the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia:

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Private_Revelations

In addition, remember that even though the Church approves a prophecy, this does NOT mean that the Church guarantees that this prophecy is correct or that it will occur. It simply means that it contains nothing anti-Catholic. So even approved prophecies can be wrong.

God insists that we follow the teachings of His Church. He never requires us to follow any particular private revelation or prophecy. They are sometimes helpful, but we must not place too much weight on them. The Church already teaches us EVERYTHING we need to obtain salvation.
 
The irony is, that if you truly believe scripture, you will also realize that there is nothing you can do to stop a prophesy from happening.

We can criticize and critique the Church, the Popes, the Bishops until the cows come home. But if a prophesy is meant by God to be fulfilled, it will be, whether we bellyache or not.

Something to ponder.
 
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