I am 100% pro reproductive freedom

[byHisGrace]

“If we were perfectly harmonious we would all be getting married right after puberty and never denying ourselves.”

Do you believe that Jesus and St. Paul were not harmonious? Right now, the Kingdom is present, but we must see and hear beyond the physical to the spiritual reality. It is, but it is not yet.

Jesus told us that in the reality, rather than the image of the Kingdom, there will be no marriage. Celibates choose, through God’s call and by His grace, to live as a sign of the Kingdom in this world, so as to be spiritually free to love all others, being available to help them in spiritual and physical need, and hopefully, to bring them to Jesus. Thus celibate priests and religious are a loving sign of God’s presence in our world and in our lives.

As for artificial contraception, it is a lie. Separating the one we love from their fertility makes it probable that we will come to merely use each other to slake our passions, as opposed to totally sharing ourselves with each other, body, fertility, and spirit.

Natural Family Planning respects God’s plan for marriage. We sometimes use it to offer up the pleasure of our passions for a serious reason. Life is always a blessing. God tells us this again and again throughout the OT. In complete freedom and love, the conjugal act binds us physically and spiritually. Removing the possibility of life destroys the potential fruitfulness of the union, the way in which our earthly families most resemble the fruitfulness of the Trinity.

Just as God the Father and God the Son share a total, self-giving love, which results in the Holy Spirit which blows through the world carrying the Word of Creation on Its breath, so too the conjugal act expresses the total self-giving of spouses which also may result in the creation of new life. God is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is also Love.

I know this because I, too, am a sinner. Away from the Church when I met and married my husband, we contracepted. It left me empty and aching with a void I did not understand until I read the words of an old celibate man in the Vatican who expressed the intimate, painful feelings of my woman’s heart in his Theology of the Body. God’s plan is unconditional love and life. The more we embrace it, the more we live as God created us to live, the happier we are.

I am leaving my cynicism behind and becoming a happy, sappy idealist, and pray for everyone else to be given the grace to discover the joy of His Truth. How awesome our God is!

May God bless you and rain His abundant graces upon you and your loved ones!

Robin,
I apologize for that last post with no comments from me…I hit the submit button a little too fast.

Thank you for your post, it was beautiful and heartfelt, and expressed the Truth much more effectively than I could. I, too, was a self-induced victim of the contraceptive mentality, and now I live with it’s effects. Finding the depths of the truth of this teaching not only gave me great joy…but was instrumental in bringing me home to the Church.
May God bless you!

 

[Angainor]

byHisGrace:

Angainor,
I don’t think there is much more I can say if you can’t see the moral difference, which is clearly outlined in Church teaching and was supported by all Christian denominations including yours. You have entirely missed the point of the sanctity of the sexual act and the fact that it is holy and for a purpose. It is the substitution of man’s will in place of God’s in the act of sex that is the problem. It is something holy that is a total giving of self and openness to life. The fact that some may not “see” the moral difference is beside the point. If you view this sacred act as “spilling semen in the womb” then I understand your difficulty in understanding the teaching.

“Spilling semen in the womb” my be an oversimplification of my position. I was trying to be concise as possible without getting too graphic. However, I don’t believe marriage is a sacrament, and I certianly don’t view marital relations as something that is near-sacramental as you seem to. I was surprised at your post. Maybe there isn’t anything more constructive we can say to each other. Thanks for the interesting discussion. May God bless you, too.

 

[byHisGrace]

“Spilling semen in the womb” my be an oversimplification of my position. I was trying to be concise as possible without getting too graphic. However, I don’t believe marriage is a sacrament, and I certianly don’t view marital relations as something that is near-sacramental as you seem to. I was surprised at your post. Maybe there isn’t anything more constructive we can say to each other. Thanks for the interesting discussion. May God bless you, too.

Angainor,
With all due respect, your responses in this thread run along the lines of “I don’t believe marriage is a sacrament”…or “I don’t view”…etc. Its apparent that you don’t agree. My attempts at getting you to see the beauty of this teaching obviously have failed. I assume you are not open to changing your mind on the issue. If you don’t see the sanctity of marriage or the sex act as the Church teaches AND AS YOUR CHURCH used to teach…I can do nothing more than point you to the truth. I am curious as to why you never answered my question…“Does the truth change?” IMHO, we are here to conform our lives to Christ and the truth. Do you have a final source of authority other than your opinion?
May God bless you.

 

[Angainor]

Robin L. in TX:

As for artificial contraception, it is a lie. Separating the one we love from their fertility makes it probable that we will come to merely use each other to slake our passions, as opposed to totally sharing ourselves with each other, body, fertility, and spirit.

That may be so, that is why I rate NFP as more harmonious as ABC. If it is so, it is the unhealthy view of the spouse that is the sinful part. You admit this is not inevitable, only probable. Meaning, it is at least possible to use artificial contraception without using eachother for passions.

Catholic teaching, as I understand it, is that artificial contraception is gravely sinful in and of itself.

Speaking of priests and nuns, do you ever get the least bit irritated that they don’t do their part in propogating the Cathoic population? Imagine all the not-to-be sons that could have followed in their biological father’s footsteps into the priesthood.
Robin L. in TX:

Do you believe that Jesus and St. Paul were not harmonious?

To be truthful, I haven’t completely come to peace in my heart on this question. In many ways, if I found out that Jesus was married it fit better into my understanding of Jesus’ mission on earth. I do not think it is an impossiblity that he was married. As it is, I am about 80% sure Jesus was not married. But that is another discussion.

 

[Angainor]

byHisGrace:

If you don’t see the sanctity of marriage or the sex act as the Church teaches AND AS YOUR CHURCH used to teach…I can do nothing more than point you to the truth.

You seem to know more about this than I do. To my knowledge, defining ABC as a sin has never been part of Lutheran common confessional creeds.

byHisGrace:

I am curious as to why you never answered my question…“Does the truth change?”

The truth does not change. What has changed is the dynamics of the relationship between human beings, their biology, and the realities of the world around them.

Take two couples, each having relations at the same frequency. One couple lives in ninth century Europe. The frequency with which this couple has relations would produce an average of 3.6 (or whatever) children.

The next couple lives in modern western society. Fertility levels are way up. More children survive to adulthood. Good things. If this couple had relations at the same frequency as the ninth century couple they would have an average of 9.8 (or whatever) children.

It is OK to plan. If a couple plans with NFP they are having relations with less frequency than the ninth century couple. Some might say that couple is having relations that are at a frequency that is less than “normal”. They are behaving outside their created nature.

If a couple plans with ABC they may end up with the same number of children as the ninth century couple and have relations at the same frequency. Some might say this frequency is more “normal”. This couple is also behaving outside of their created nature by more directly choosing when they are fertle.

Both are compromises. Like I said, I consider no family planning whatsoever (like the ninth century couple) to be the most harmonious, but the realities of modern life make this too difficult.

 

[byHisGrace]

Angainor,
Regardless of what the Lutheran confessional creed might say, you would be wise to review what Luther, Wesley, et. al. taught about this. If you don’t follow Luther as a guide, then WHO is your point of authority? Yourself and your opinion?

I have been lost as to the logic of your thinkin until the last few posts. You’ve said you don’t believe marriage is a sacrament or that marital relations are sacramental. You also said the “truth does not change”…but "the dynamics between human beings…and the “realities of the world around them” have. Thats moral relativism at its best. I can only conclude that is what you hold to.
You then site the differences as to the frequency of ses as somehow supporting your position and suggestiing that frequesncy that is “less than normal” means “they are behaving outside their created nature.” WHAT? We are CALLED to behave outside our nature! If someone punches me in the face , my nature makes me want to punch him back. I am called to turn the other cheek!

Finally, your comment to Robin regarding priests and nuns doing their part to “propagate the Catholic population” totally misses the point and could be considered offensive. The Church does NOT teach us to “propagate the Catholic population” . The teaching on ABC is about not “playing God” in the marital relationship.

Our opinions mean nothing unless they conform to unchanging truth. That truth is found in Christ and our source of the authority is the Church as Christ found and intended it.
I pray you remain open minded and encourage you to go deeper into what the Church teaches.
May God bless you!

 

[Angainor]

byHisGrace:

Angainor,
Regardless of what the Lutheran confessional creed might say, you would be wise to review what Luther, Wesley, et. al. taught about this. If you don’t follow Luther as a guide, then WHO is your point of authority? Yourself and your opinion?

I do not follow Luther. As a protestant there is no WHO with regards to authority. Protestants take responsibility for their own understanding of the truth. This does not mean they hold themselves to be authorities.
do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21

byHisGrace:

I have been lost as to the logic of your thinkin until the last few posts. You’ve said you don’t believe marriage is a sacrament or that marital relations are sacramental. You also said the “truth does not change”…but "the dynamics between human beings…and the “realities of the world around them” have. Thats moral relativism at its best. I can only conclude that is what you hold to.

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” Matthew 9:16-17

byHisGrace:

You then site the differences as to the frequency of ses as somehow supporting your position and suggestiing that frequesncy that is “less than normal” means “they are behaving outside their created nature.” WHAT? We are CALLED to behave outside our nature!

I don’t see it that way. When we behave outside of our created nature is when we get into trouble. I see all sin as behaving outside our created nature. We are called to behave outside our sinful nature, yes. I think there is a frequency to marital relations that falls within the realm of our created nature. Practicing NFP brings the frequency down below that. NFP is less harmonious than no family planning.

byHisGrace:

Finally, your comment to Robin regarding priests and nuns doing their part to “propagate the Catholic population” totally misses the point and could be considered offensive.

What are we talking about here? Reproduction.

 

[byHisGrace]

Angainor:

I do not follow Luther. As a protestant there is no WHO with regards to authority. Protestants take responsibility for their own understanding of the truth. This does not mean they hold themselves to be authorities.
do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21

“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment, for the patch will pull away from the garment, making the tear worse. Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.” Matthew 9:16-17
I don’t see it that way. When we behave outside of our created nature is when we get into trouble. I see all sin as behaving outside our created nature. We are called to behave outside our sinful nature, yes. I think there is a frequency to marital relations that falls within the realm of our created nature. Practicing NFP brings the frequency down below that. NFP is less harmonious than no family planning.What are we talking about here? Reproduction.

Angainor,
We’ve beaten this to death. You don’t believe marriage is a sacrament. You don’t believe in the sanctity of sex. You claim to be Lutheran but do not follow what Luther taught. You frequently site your position as your opinion. You have only yourself to follow as to your own interpretation of absolute truth. You’re not absolutely sure whether Jesus was married or not. You have a theory of “created nature” and have associated it with the frequency of sex. I say to you as charitably as I know how, that I can only conclude that as long as you only have yourself to depend on and your own interpretation of God’s will, then you will continue to remain lost in a sea of moral relativism.
May God richly bless you!

 

[Angainor]

byHisGrace:

Angainor,
We’ve beaten this to death. You don’t believe marriage is a sacrament. You don’t believe in the sanctity of sex. You claim to be Lutheran but do not follow what Luther taught. You frequently site your position as your opinion. You have only yourself to follow as to your own interpretation of absolute truth. You’re not absolutely sure whether Jesus was married or not. You have a theory of “created nature” and have associated it with the frequency of sex. I say to you as charitably as I know how, that I can only conclude that as long as you only have yourself to depend on and your own interpretation of God’s will, then you will continue to remain lost in a sea of moral relativism.
May God richly bless you!

I’m just testing everything. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

“Everything” just happens to include Jesus’ marital status. How can I be “absolutely sure” Jesus wasn’t married? It happend 2000 years ago, and the new testament writers don’t say he wasn’t married.

I sometimes state my position as my opinion because I don’t consider myself an authority. I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it. I’m hoping they test my ideas as well.

Oh, and fortunately I do not have just myself to depend on. There is Christ’s Church. Whatever I say and what ever you say, the Church will always be a pillar of truth.

:bounce: Before you go for good, I have one question for you. What is it that makes you think I am lost in a sea of moral relativism? If I say “I don’t know”, as in “I don’t know for sure if Jesus was married” I may be lost, but it is not moral relativism.

Moral relativism is when I plant a flag in the ground and call it truth and you plant a flag in the ground and call it truth and then go on to shrug our shoulders and say “oh well, what’s true for you is true for you and what’s true for me is true for me. It’s all good.”

 

[byHisGrace]

Angainor:

I’m just testing everything. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

“Everything” just happens to include Jesus’ marital status. How can I be “absolutely sure” Jesus wasn’t married? It happend 2000 years ago, and the new testament writers don’t say he wasn’t married.

I sometimes state my position as my opinion because I don’t consider myself an authority. I don’t expect anyone to take my word for it. I’m hoping they test my ideas as well.

Oh, and fortunately I do not have just myself to depend on. There is Christ’s Church. Whatever I say and what ever you say, the Church will always be a pillar of truth.

:bounce: Before you go for good, I have one question for you. What is it that makes you think I am lost in a sea of moral relativism? If I say “I don’t know”, as in “I don’t know for sure if Jesus was married” I may be lost, but it is not moral relativism.

Moral relativism is when I plant a flag in the ground and call it truth and you plant a flag in the ground and call it truth and then go on to shrug our shoulders and say “oh well, what’s true for you is true for you and what’s true for me is true for me. It’s all good.”

Angainor,
I mean in all sincerity, God bless you for your persistence. However, you’re all over the map on this. You said you’re just testing …testing against what? testing against what authority? You said the “Church”. What Church? You say you’re a Lutheran but you don’t subscribe to what Luther believed. You certainly don’t subscribe to what the Catholic Church teaches…I asked you earlier …where do you find authority outside your own interpretation? You can’t. You can’t just say “Christ’s Church”. Which one? They don’t agree. So you are left to divine it for yourself. The truth does not change. And since you have no compass for your interpretation other than what you believe you are “inspired” to choose…you ARE INDEED swimming in a see of moral relativism. It really is that simple. You indeed have to depend on a Pillar of Truth. The problem is, you can’t define specifically for me where that Pillar exists. And until you do, you only have your opinion and whatever opinions you choose to adopt from other sources…which do not agree even among themselves. This ALONE should give you pause to consider seriously what the Catholic Church teaches.
May God Bless you!

 

[Angainor]

byHisGrace:

You said you’re just testing …testing against what? testing against what authority?

What is so important about authority? If I entered the Twighlight Zone tomorrow where everyone but me disappeared off the face of the earth, along with all Christian writings there ever were (including the Bible), the Truth would still exist. I could still search for that Truth, although I might not get very far. Truth exists without an earthly authority. It is our job to seek it.