I am a distrubutist and i am proud of it - Catholic Distrubutism makes me proud of being Catholic!

[MindOverMatter2]

I was honestly beginning to think that the faith was merely a vehicle for right wing liberal greedy capitalism. But now I have recently found this Distrubitist theory of economics, advocated by the Thomist Donald P. Goodman III and many learned and important Catholics, and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

See here - distributistreview.com/mag/

youtube.com/watch?v=IRtyOkfpvSI&feature=related

Peace.

 

[Windfish]

Are you saying that you were contemplating leaving the Faith?

Catholicism accommodates all kinds of view provided that they are consistent with Church teaching. Check out this guy, he’s an anti-Statist Catholic:

youtube.com/user/tumbleweedjoe

 

[brianwalden]

While I disagree with socialism for pragmatic reasons, I don’t think there’s anything about socialism in and of itself that prevents a Catholic from endorsing it. Please inform me if I’m wrong about this. Of course they may be (and I would say definitely are) elements in the way that specific governments implement socialism that contradict the faith.

Overall I would be concerned if you were considering leaving the Church over any political system. It’s dangerous to subscribe ideologically to any specific strain of political thought - there’s no one political system that is always best in all times and places. If your political views conflict with your faith, you should first try to determine what’s wrong with those views.

 

[CDNowak]

While I disagree with socialism for pragmatic reasons, I don’t think there’s anything about socialism in and of itself that prevents a Catholic from endorsing it. Please inform me if I’m wrong about this. Of course they may be (and I would say definitely are) elements in the way that specific governments implement socialism that contradict the faith.

Socialism is contrary to natural law, as well as Catholic Social Teaching, because it deprives men of their right to property. The Capitalist respects private property very much, like Chesterton’s thief he desires to respect it more fully.

Overall I would be concerned if you were considering leaving the Church over any political system. It’s dangerous to subscribe ideologically to any specific strain of political thought - there’s no one political system that is always best in all times and places. If your political views conflict with your faith, you should first try to determine what’s wrong with those views.

Socialism, Capitalism, and Distributism are economic theories, not political ones. Further if a religion were to endorse only capitalism, one could well find difficulty following it do to the lack of morality it promotes.

I was honestly beginning to think that the faith was merely a vehicle for right wing liberal greedy capitalism. But now I have recently found this Distrubitist theory of economics, advocated by the Thomist Donald P. Goodman III and many learned and important Catholics, and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

I do hope you find the time to read Servile State (Belloc) which provides an accessible guide to why ownership was considered the only solution to the ethical issue of the labor/capitalist dispute by Pope Leo XIII (Rerum Novarum).

 

[MindOverMatter2]

While I disagree with socialism for pragmatic reasons, I don’t think there’s anything about socialism in and of itself that prevents a Catholic from endorsing it. Please inform me if I’m wrong about this.

The Catholic faith in the “Catechism” has condemned socialism. This of course doesn’t mean that every aspect of socialism is wrong. It seems to me that there are some good aspects, such as sharing the common good. But this aspect have been mixed up with other ideas which pervert and stretch the nature of sharing to an extent that undermines other social goods such as real private property. Thus sharing the social good in the “context” of socialism is invalid. Similarly, capitalism today see private property as an absolute right. But this is not true. Private property is good, only to the extent that it respects the rights and dignities of other human beings. A capitalism that is allowed to work unregulated to the demise of the moral dignity and property rights of others is intrinsically evil, and in this case the state has a morally responsibility to step in and regulate the market toward the common good of all, because an act of theft is taking place under a false notion of a free-market.

If your political views conflict with your faith, you should first try to determine what’s wrong with those views.

If the Catholic faith was to endorse the murder and rape of small children as a dogma, in all honesty I would lose my faith. Thankfully they do not do this. Similarly, while I am self critical I would expect any intelligent person of any religion to be critical of their faith as well as of themselves; otherwise it just a cult. I don’t really know for certain that the Catholic faith is the true faith, thus there is the possibility of my losing faith. There is also the possibility of my being led away from the faith because of the false representation of Catholic social teaching. At the same time there is always the possibility of loss due to a misunderstanding of my faith. But I have always found that I learn more positive things about my faith the more I look at it critically. More importantly I am always looking for good reasons to remain Catholic because I want to be Catholic. I am not saying that others should follow my path. But I am interested in maintaining a rational faith, not a blind belief. Also, politics for me is a “moral issue”. Its a issue about how natural goods should be distributed. They should be distributed in a manner that full-fills the common good as well as the good of the individual, rather than just the good of a small minority that control and hold all the property. Such a minority would be by itself be a mini economic state within a state distributing according to its whim rather than the common good. That’s economic slavery and is an unjustified use of property. In a true moral capitalist society, everybody would have there own private property and a means to produce things sufficiently for there needs and a means to compete in the market place without losing there human dignity and right to private property. There would be no real losers, even if the distribution of wealth is unequal.

 

[Liinus]

Is this a philosophical discussion?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I was honestly beginning to think that the faith was merely a vehicle for right wing liberal greedy capitalism. But now I have recently found this Distrubitist theory of economics, advocated by the Thomist Donald P. Goodman III and many learned and important Catholics, and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

See here - distributistreview.com/mag/

youtube.com/watch?v=IRtyOkfpvSI&feature=related

Peace.

You may want to reconsider your pride. All pride is problematic. For example, instead of feeling proud of the Catholic Church, you should hold it in high esteem. There a big difference between pride and esteem (I’m not talking self esteem here, but esteem).

Also, I tend to have socialistic ideals, like government taking care of the poor, and I think I fit in with the Catholic Church. Go back to the Gospels and ask what would Christ do. Christ, I think, was a socialist at heart.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

You may want to reconsider your pride. All pride is problematic. For example, instead of feeling proud of the Catholic Church, you should hold it in high esteem. There a big difference between pride and esteem (I’m not talking self esteem here, but esteem).

Also, I tend to have socialistic ideals, like government taking care of the poor, and I think I fit in with the Catholic Church. Go back to the Gospels and ask what would Christ do. Christ, I think, was a socialist at heart.

I here what you are saying. But I mean “proud” in a different sense like “I am black and I am proud”. Its a statement of dignity, as in I now feel dignified as a Catholic, where as before I felt ashamed of identifying myself with the Catholic faith.

 

[Abu]

Robert Sock
Christ, I think, was a socialist at heart.

No. As Fr John Corapi explains:
“The common error is to think that socialism helps the poor and disenfranchised. As Pope Leo XIII pointed out as long ago as 1891 in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum, socialism does not help the poor. Rather, it reduces everyone to the same lowest common denominator of poverty and misery, while at the same time drying up the very sources of capital.”

In the parable of the talents, Jesus Christ, God the Son, lauds the servant who has multiplied talents – “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mt 25: 14-30).

In his outstanding work Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 43-47, (with a new edition, since), Dr Alejandro Chafuen has examined carefully the teaching of Christ and wealth. Citing the case of the rich young man in Luke 18:18-25, Dr Chafuen remarks that many authors think that Jesus was condemning the possession of riches, but “the Late Scholastics indicated that this was not the correct interpretation. Citing Luke 14:26, where Jesus says, ‘If any man come to Me without hating his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and his own life too, he cannot be My disciple,’ the Scholastics pointed out that this passage does not enjoin Christians to hate their fathers. Such doctrine would contradict the Fourth Commandment. Thomist and Scholastic interpretations of this passage is that the entrance to the kingdom of Heaven is denied to anyone who values things more than God. In Matthew’s Gospel (10:37), the same passage reads: ‘Anyone who prefers father or mother to Me is not worthy of Me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to Me is not worthy of Me.’ It would be a violation of the natural order to value a created thing above its creator, as did the young ruler who pursued riches as his ultimate goal.

“As is indicated in Luke (12:29-31): ‘you must not set your heart on things to eat and things to drink; nor must you worry. It is the pagans of this world who set their hearts on all these things. Your father well knows you need them. No; set your hearts on His kingdom, and these other things will be given you as well.’ Dr Chafuen notes that “many people close to Jesus were quite wealthy for their times. Joseph seems to have had his own business and perhaps a donkey; Peter owned a fishing boat, and Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus praised the rich man Zaccheus. It was the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea who kept faith even when the Apostles were beset by doubt (Mt 27:57). Jesus does not condemn the possession of riches but, rather disordered attachment to them.”
Notice also that Jesus did not ask His Apostles to renounce their property.

brianwalden
I don’t think there’s anything about socialism in and of itself that prevents a Catholic from endorsing it. Please inform me if I’m wrong about this.

No Catholic maybe a true socialist.
Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”

The Welfare State is condemned.
From Centesimus Annus , 48, John Paul II, 1991:
“Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State [Welfare State] are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Distributionism…an economic outlook that will NEVER happen…it’s either capitalism with a touch of socialism or pure capitalism that will win the day NOT this distributionist nonsense. Chesterton was on that trip…never happened then, never will…

Lobbyists, big corporations, big government, pacs, and the voter mentality as well as the financial system and capitalist infrastructure will make sure it’ll never happen

Sounds good to tell people you believe in it but it has about the same chances as anarchy, nazism, communism, and trekkiism LOL!

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Distributionism…an economic outlook that will NEVER happen…it’s either capitalism with a touch of socialism or pure capitalism that will win the day NOT this distributionist nonsense. Chesterton was on that trip…never happened then, never will…

Lobbyists, big corporations, big government, pacs, and the voter mentality as well as the financial system and capitalist infrastructure will make sure it’ll never happen

Sounds good to tell people you believe in it but it has about the same chances as anarchy, nazism, communism, and trekkiism LOL!

I am no-longer infected by posts like this as i now realize what the church truthfully represents. The Capitalism you speak of is not true capitalism.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Thomist and Scholastic interpretations of this passage is that the entrance to the kingdom of** Heaven is denied to anyone who values things more than God. **

I tend to see a lot of people using and distorting church teaching as an excuse to promote immoral and selfish acts in an economic context.

God is love, and to love is to share the good of what God gives to you, so that others can partake in the glory of Gods goodness. Love is necessarily social in its distribution, but not to the extreme of socialism when understood in the context of our current situation on earth. In heaven there will be no capitalism since there will be an absolute abundance of good. Private property is good. But it is not absolute. If your use of property and claim to wealth comes at the detriment of others, for example their homes and property, or their food and their essential needs, then this is evil and surely a mortal sin. A human being without the good of property has been bared from the social order that God intended. It is not love. Therefore private property is obviously conditional in that you have a duty to another’s well being as well as yourself. You have private property to serve the good of the community as well as yourself. One does not have wealth simply for themselves but they also have a moral obligation to the needs of others. Hence a rich man goes to hell, if he or she does not use his riches to serve the love of God. This fact also has a binding significance in how we do economics, since we must create a system that serves the common good and not just the good of the individual. Thus it is legitimate to say that an economic use of property which damages or undermines the common good should actually be an illegal as well as immoral use of property just like murder is illegal, and as such a legitimate state ought to have a moral and legal right to intervene on behalf of the common good and obtain that property for the dignified right of the common good. I would say that a capitalist economy is potentially a good since “trading” property isn’t necessarily an evil; but rather an unregulated market place is an evil thing since it undermines the common good. So, this requires something that exists in-between socialism and capitalism, but at the same time it is not socialism or a market that concerns itself with the individual alone. I reject socialism because it takes away private property.

But distributism respects private property and the common good. Sharing the love of God is always a holy and just act so long as it respects the dignity of all people. A true and moral capitalism is obviously not what we have today since it would be impossible that people would be living in poverty and be living without a home, or would be denied proper health treatment on the account of not having enough money. An economy truly regulated to the benefit of the common good would look very different to the world we live in today. I am not saying that everybody must be equal in such a world as that is not necessary. So long as the lowest wage earner is living a sufficiently dignified life that can support his or here family without fear or worry, then it doesn’t matter that there would be richer people in the world.

If you can’t see that, then i feel sorry for you.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

The Welfare State is condemned.
From Centesimus Annus , 48, John Paul II, 1991:
“Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State [Welfare State] are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good."

Lets read things in context: catholicity.com/commentary/hargrave/05601.html

*Beginning with Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, the Church, to use the phrase of Pope John Paul II, declared her “citizenship status” and began to take a more active interest in social and economic questions. While that encyclical was primarily concerned with the socialist revolutionary threat against the right of private property, Leo also had something to say about the role of the state with respect to the poor and laboring masses. He wrote:

[W]hen there is question of defending the rights of individuals, the poor and badly off have a claim to especial consideration. The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government.

This concern for the poor in general and the poor worker in particular has been a consistent theme of Catholic social doctrine since the time of Leo’s writing (1891, not long after the Bismarckian reforms). The Church has recognized a de facto bill of rights for the working class in all countries, rights that are “based on the nature of the human person and on his transcendent dignity.” These rights are drawn from the many social encyclicals that have been written in the last 120 years, and are summarized and listed in paragraph 301 of the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church.

They are:

*** The right to a just wage.**
* The right to rest.
* The right to a working environment and to manufacturing processes that are not harmful to the workers' physical health or moral integrity.
* The right that one's personality in the workplace should be safeguarded without suffering any affront to one's conscience or personal dignity.
* **The right to appropriate subsidies necessary for the subsistence of unemployed workers and their families.**
* The right to a pension and to insurance for old age, sickness, and in case of work-related accidents.
* The right to social security connected with maternity.
* The right to assemble and form associations.

 

[Rocinante]

I was honestly beginning to think that the faith was merely a vehicle for right wing liberal greedy capitalism. But now I have recently found this Distrubitist theory of economics, advocated by the Thomist Donald P. Goodman III and many learned and important Catholics, and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

See here - distributistreview.com/mag/

youtube.com/watch?v=IRtyOkfpvSI&feature=related

Peace.

faith is way too often co-opted as a vehicle for right wing greedy capitalism, but wwjd, right?

i reject the gospel of supply side jesus too:
youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M

 

[MindOverMatter2]

faith is way too often co-opted as a vehicle for right wing greedy capitalism, but wwjd, right?

i reject the gospel of supply side jesus too:
youtube.com/watch?v=AK7gI5lMB7M

Thank you so much for posting this. I was in fits of laughter!!!

I say no to supply side Jesus!

 

[Elixir]

and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

So you were considering leaving Christ’s Church for your politics and it took this bit of political theory to make you realize you are part of something special?

 

[Rocinante]

Thank you so much for posting this. I was in fits of laughter!!!

I say no to supply side Jesus!

it is a shame that so many people don’t see the contradiction between the gospels and conservative economic policies, but that video sure drives the point home.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

So you were considering leaving Christ’s Church for your politics and it took this bit of political theory to make you realize you are part of something special?

It wasn’t so much that i wanted to leave, but rather i was being pushed away from the catholic faith because of what i believe to be self evidently wrong. I wanted to leave or perhaps disobey the church for what i “thought” was the core of its church teaching. But i wanted to stay Catholic for other reasons. The fact is nearly every debate i got in to with a Catholic on this subject seemed to express a common association between Hardcore no holds bared capitalism and catholic teaching. They would often use scripture and church teaching to prove their point. My pain was further increased when i realized that the Catholic church had rejected socialism which i believed to be a positive social force, even though i wasn’t a very active socialist. They seemed to be the only ones that were acknowledging that there was something wrong with the current economic climate and how society is run to the detriment of the poor and defenseless. The catholic faith, when expressed through the words of some Catholics appeared to justify the economic oppression of human beings. They appeared to support “survival of the fittest” insofar as economics was concerned.

I now believe that i was ignorant of what my faith actually taught and was instead seeing it through the eyes of right wing capitalists who see the faith as a justification to exploit the poor. I was seeing it the way they wanted me to see it.

 

[Abu]

CDNowak
Socialism, Capitalism, and Distributism are economic theories, not political ones. Further if a religion were to endorse only capitalism, one could well find difficulty following it do to the lack of morality it promotes.

Strange that politics and economics should be confused like that – it seems very common. Could you identify what “lack of morality”? I thought that morality was for individuals to exercise. What is “capitalism” for you and how does your view of capitalism promote immorality?

Rocinante
it is a shame that so many people don’t see the contradiction between the gospels and conservative economic policies.

Can you show the contradiction simply?

MindOverMatter2
I now believe that i was ignorant of what my faith actually taught and was instead seeing it through the eyes of right wing capitalists who see the faith as a justification to exploit the poor.

How is Catholicism seen to justify exploiting the poor? Which “right wing capitalists” do such a thing to Catholicism, and how?

 

[JDaniel]

You may want to reconsider your pride. All pride is problematic. For example, instead of feeling proud of the Catholic Church, you should hold it in high esteem. There a big difference between pride and esteem (I’m not talking self esteem here, but esteem).

Also, I tend to have socialistic ideals, like government taking care of the poor, and I think I fit in with the Catholic Church. Go back to the Gospels and ask what would Christ do. Christ, I think, was a socialist at heart.

Robert:

I’m not sure one could pigeonhole Christ as a socialist, or as one leaning towards socialism. Surely He would have known that the best method of distribution is what we call Capitalism. Unfortunately, it takes incredible resources to distribute to so many needy.

We are a country of 300 million people. The world is a globe comprised of 6.5 billion people. Of this 6.5 billion people, 6 billion, or so, earn less than $2.00 per day, according to the World Bank. The US, at full fury, can only admit about 1 million people a year to its numbers. The rest of the world, is reproducing 80 million new people every year. We have no chance at all at helping the poor of the world. We can only do our small part.

If, on the other hand, we could get the rest of the world on board with Capitalism, they might be able to help themselves. But, at this late date, I’m not so sure.

God bless,
jd