I am a distrubutist and i am proud of it - Catholic Distrubutism makes me proud of being Catholic!

[JDaniel]

i don’t blame the banks. corporations are legally required to serve the financial interests of their investors even if it means taking advantage of every possibly way of screwing the rest of us. i blame the government for failing to ensure that corporations serve the people through appropriate regulation.

rocinante

Actually, what the government did was to hold a gun to the heads of our nation’s banks that required them to level the playing field, allowing access to the American Dream by everybody, under the pain of forfeiture of the right to do business. The results of CRA is what we currently have. The meltdown. First caused by forcing the economy into depression, then expecting that reduction in the value of stuff to somehow be handled by its own collapse. Yep, our government (USA) failed to ensure that corporations serve all of the people, including the stockholders.

God bless,
jd

 

[Rocinante]

They are reproducing 80 million new poor each and every year. The US takes in about 1 million of them each year, which is all that we can absorb. Even if we gave out all of the accumulated global wealth, it would only amount to a gnat on an elephant’s rear end.

I think this portends the coming of God in the not too distant future.

that or the need to stop preaching about the evils of modern contraception methods.

 

[Rocinante]

Rocinante:

What exactly is unbridled capitalism? Can you give us any examples in our current world?

God bless,
jd

no, it is a straw man. but what is socialism but bridled capitalism? it is a matter of balance.

 

[JDaniel]

ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=121

All you could come up with is one company? One poor example of a company that even more poorly emulates capitalism?

The International Labor Organization has estimated that 250 million children between the ages of five and fourteen work in developing countries-at least 120 million on a full time basis. Sixty-one percent of these were in Asia, 32 percent in Africa, and 7 percent in Latin America.

The Earth consists of more than 3.25 billion kids under the age of 18. You’re pointing out 1/13th of them? And, that’s proof positive of the failure of Capitalism?

Most working children in rural areas were found in agriculture; urban children worked in trade and services, with fewer in manufacturing, construction and domestic service. Many of these children work in factories with horrible conditions such as unsafe environment, low wages, and excessive amounts of working hours. One company who is responsible for promoting slave labor is Nike…

Much of these kids work for their families in order to help feed their families - or some sicko parents. That’s the fault of Capitalism?

Today, Nike is a four billion dollar business that has had its ups and downs. Currently, Nike is having difficulties with the publicity it is receiving about its labor practices in China, South Korea, Indonesia, and Vietnam. In China, employees for Nike work twelve hour shifts for several days a week. Their wages are as low as sixteen cents an hour. There are sixteen people to a dorm room, and many pregnant women are fired. One specific example of this treatment is in the Wellco Factory, Dungguan China. The work-shift is eleven to twelve hours a day, seven days a week. It is obligatory–if the employee do not stay, he/she is fined.

One can find atrocities in every walk of life. So, do we condemn all walks of life?

On occasion, the employee gets every other Sunday off. Wages are as low as 16¢ an hour, $6.92 a week, and $358.84 a year. Workers are not allowed to talk. There is constant pressure to produce and workers are always yelled at. If one does not complete the high production quota, they must stay until they do without additional pay. There have been some cases of corporal punishment. Pregnant women have been fired. The factory is noisy, filled with dust and fumes. Workers have fainted, overcome by the long hours and the fumes. One worker died; another lost an arm; others have had their fingers broken by the equipment. Most workers never heard of the Nike code of conduct, which generally states that management practices must recognize the dignity of the individual and the right to a workplace free of harassment, abuse or corporal punishment. In addition to ensuring internal and external monitoring, Nike will sever ties with contractors found to be in violation of the Code. There is no union, and workers are afraid that if they complain, they will be fired. When a group of workers stopped working in March to protest that they had not been paid, they were fired. In the sewing section, there were 13 to 15-year old children illegally employed. The supervisor warns workers in advance of any inspection. The factory is cleaned and if workers are interviewed it is always in the presence of factory management. The persisting problem is whether or not Nike’s Code of Conduct is enforced. Nike’s code of conduct is a document that ensures the right to a fair, clean and safe environment for its workers.

Nike is not a Capitalist corporation in any real sense of that word. It is an example of an abusive, Capitalist-hating company that is run for the benefit of the few that are on top. We should not be buying from them. I have no argument with that. The argument I have is widening any label placed on them to the rest of capitalism - which is a small minority of companies. I can’t help that there are those who operate very poorly.

It condemns and prohibits child labor, requires that employees are paid a fair wage,

OK. what is a fair wage?

provides a set amount of hours in which employees can work

,

What is a proper and fair number of hours that can be worked?

prohibits mistreatment or discrimination of any form

,

How can anyone outlaw discrimination? You and I discriminate almost moment to moment, in our lives.

makes factories enforce programs that benefit workers health and safety

,

I think most decent American companies do these things willingly. If one has a farm and mis-treats his farm animals, his family won’t eat for log.

and recognizes and respects workers wishes to form unions.

So, not only do we have the government stealing 25% our our earnings, we now have another entity, or two, taking 5 - 10% more. Where does that money go? Union leaders?

cont . . .

 

[JDaniel]

cont . . .

Because of the negative publicity and awareness of the problem, Phil Knight made public speeches in May of 1998 regarding his plan for the labor conditions. He announced that Nike’s plans were to: “Expand independent factory monitoring to include nongovernmental organizations, foundations and educational institutions, and to make summaries of the findings public, have all Nike shoe factories meet U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration indoor air quality standards by the end of 1998, expand education programs near the Asian footwear factories, increase a short-term enterprise loan program to assist 1,000 families each in Vietnam, Indonesia, Pakistan and Thailand, and Finance university research on global economics and public forums on global manufacturing issues such as independent monitoring and air quality standards, and raise the minimum age of workers to 18 at shoe factories and 16 at apparel and equipment factories.” Although Nike has tried to make some improvements with the labor conditions and make the public feel at ease, some are still quite skeptical. Phil Knight promises seem far-fetched to most of the Indonesian workers but they are willing to give anything a chance. Wages are very important to the workers within the Asian countries. Nike needs to pay a livable wage to cover the basic necessities for their 500,000 Asian employees.

As it should be.

There is definitely something wrong when Americans pay $100.00 for a pair of shoes and the workers only receive about $3.00 to make them.

Well, let’s see? They make the shoes, labor cost = $3.00, raw material = $5.00 (or more). Then they need to be loaded and shipped. Loading and shipping at point of origin = about $10.00 per pair of shoes. Then the cartons must be placed on freighters. Loading employees, $0.15 per pair. The ship then ship sets sail, cost 5.00 - 6.00 per pair. Then the ship arrives at an American port. Costs and duties, about 1.00 per pair. The cartons are off-loaded by union employees here, about $0.85 per pair. They must be stored. Say 1.00 per pair. (We’re now up to, let’s see, $27.00 per pair)

Then they must be broken open and customs inspected, say 1.00 per pair. Then re-boxed. then separated out for a diversity of distributors, say $1.00 per pair. then re-cartoned and shipped out to those distributors. Say 2.00 per pair. They are then received at their proper distributors, unloaded and stored. Say 1.00 per pair. (We’re up to about $33.00 per pair - all the while, workers have been earning money for their endeavors).

At the distributor, they are then stored, displayed and sold. A typical distributor must operate on a percentage of 25 - 30% of selling price. So, let’s take the lower, say $25.00. After the sale, the shoes are separated out to be shipped again to the end-retailers. (We’re now at about $58.00 per cost of a pair of shoes.) Now, add the costs of loading, shipping unloading and storing at the end-retailer and we add another say 5% of selling price. So, about $5.00 more dollars. (Now we’re up to $63.00 per pair.)

Next, the retailer has its own costs (which includes maybe a measly 5% profit). Advertising, stocking and re-stocking the floor. Cost of cashiers. Cost of returns. Federal taxes. Union dues. Parking lots. Air conditioning. Lights. Etc., etc. Easily totaling 32% of selling price

Any problems with this picture?

Nike’s Washington lobbyist said that “Nike is the only company that has people dedicated exclusively to labor-practice enforcement.”

Again: one measly company to condemn an entire economic system. Do you see how many people were at the trough throughout this process? Do you see the expenditures on distribution mechanics? Do you realize that what Nike is being made to do will drive up their costs even more? guess who will pay for those increases. Will you be willing to pay $135.00 per pair of shoes? Or, maybe $150.00 per pair? I don’t think so - despite your good intentions.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

that or the need to stop preaching about the evils of modern contraception methods.

The annihilation of the unborn is not the answer, Rocinante. Where do we stop it. Do we enforce it? How do we enforce it? Contraception, as a fix, is fraught with problems.

It would certainly help if we could find another life-supporting planet or two.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

no, it is a straw man. but what is socialism but bridled capitalism? it is a matter of balance.

Precisely!

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

i don’t blame the banks. corporations are legally required to serve the financial interests of their investors even if it means taking advantage of every possibly way of screwing the rest of us. i blame the government for failing to ensure that corporations serve the people through appropriate regulation.

rocinante

Rocinante:

WE are their investors!

Well, you and I may not personally be. But, we certainly could be. If I had my last $100,000.00 tied up in a bank’s stock, I’d want, no, rather I’d demand, performance! You can’t own every make of car in the world. You can’t own every make of computer in the world. We make choices; we discriminate. Sometimes our choices work out for our betterment. Sometimes not.

I can tell you that I was in business for myself. I had a good company. I had great employees. Almost everyone was pretty contented and happy. Then, along came Uncle Sam. He regulated me, and pretty much the whole rest of our industry right out of business. 150 employees. Two owners.

But, to tell you the truth, I’m glad I’m out. If I had to continue to take what the governments dishes out, I might have committed a mortal sin.

God bless,
jd

 

[tonyrey]

There must be a radical flaw in any political system which does not ensure that all its citizens enjoy the basic necessities of life. The prime responsibility of any government is to ensure there is not gross inequality which leads to unnecessary deprivation and suffering.

 

[JDaniel]

There must be a radical flaw in any political system which does not ensure that all its citizens enjoy the basic necessities of life. The prime responsibility of any government is to ensure there is not gross inequality which leads to unnecessary deprivation and suffering.

Tonyrey:

I think the flaw is inherent in the system by nature of multitudes of people. We don’t seem to want ex-businessmen as our leaders. We usually don’t elect them. Now, one could make the claim that attorneys are ex-businessmen. But, I never saw them as real businessmen. Real businessmen are people who have to meet payrolls. Remit withheld employment taxes. Remit withheld union fees and dues. Pay 50% of social security. Pay unemployment taxes. Pay workers compensation taxes. Pay sales taxes. Pay health insurance co-shares.

Real businessmen have to weigh out the ultimate cost of raising prices, because their costs of raw materials have escalated. Or, their tax burden has increased. Or, wage and hour has caused an increase in the minimum wages of some, or all, of their workers.

Government officials charge in like wounded Rhinos. Usually without really thinking things through very well. If they had left me alone, I would not be receiving phone calls from ex-employees encouraging me to get back into business so I could re-hire them.

Government regulation is the direct and proximate cause of my ex-employees’ sufferings.

God bless,
jd

 

[markomalley]

There must be a radical flaw in any political system which does not ensure that all its citizens enjoy the basic necessities of life. The prime responsibility of any government is to ensure there is not gross inequality which leads to unnecessary deprivation and suffering.

Why is that Uncle’s concern?

I would submit that there is something inherently flawed in any economic system where materialism is the object. Unfortunately, since human beings (flawed human beings) are involved in the process, that means that there will never be any economic system that, in practice, is not going to be flawed…or perhaps one should state is not going to have its vulnerabilities exploited.

 

[Abu]

Rocinante
after the financial meltdown you can say with a presumably straight face that the problem is too much regulation?
i blame the government for failing to ensure that corporations serve the people through appropriate regulation.
the need to stop preaching about the evils of modern contraception methods.

1. The facts are that the recent financial crisis in the U.S. has the hallmarks of the same interventionist policies that deepened and prolonged the Great Depression. As Federal Reserve chairman between 1987 and 2006, Greenspan acted even more irresponsibly than the Fed officials in the 1930’s who he criticized over the “excess credit” that directly brought about the Great Depression. Rather than, “sopping up the excess reserves,” Greenspan added even more, transforming a stock market bubble into a housing and consumer spending bubble of historic and unprecedented proportions.
2. You seem quite unaware that the contraceptive mentality has produced the abortion mentality and holocaust, the global demographic meltdown happening in Europe, the gathering storm in the East, and the family meltdown in the Christian nations of the West.

 

[C_S_P_B]

The two smartest men I have ever heard are below:

Judge Andrew Napolitano Natural Rights & The Patriot Act** **

---

Meltdown | Thomas E Woods, Jr.

---

To think that both are Catholic!

Like them I am a Libertarian, but I tend more toward an Eliottician Socionomist approach in my beliefs as a modification to Austrian Economics. So I have a few differences with them, but not many.

 

[Abu]

MindOverMatter2
economic dictatorship has supplanted the free market

In Quadragesimo Anno, Pius XI, 1931, #88, stated that “economic dictatorship…has recently displaced free competition, and in #41:
“however, she can in no wise renounce the duty God entrusted to her to interpose her authority, not of course in matters of technique for which she is neither suitably equipped nor endowed by office, but in all things that are connected with the moral law.

Pius XI acknowledged that **there are limits to what the moral theologian may say within the economic sphere, since each “employs each its own principles in its own sphere.” **(#42).

As Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185 explains:
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”

That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and worse crimes. That’s why we have the Catholic Church to guide us – She who invented charity in the West. It’s time to face reality.

No wealth can be created until it is produced – that’s why the Catholic Late Scholastic system of free enterprise works so well to enable everyone to produce some wealth and to do with it as they choose through free-will. The economic laws they discovered are based on the principles of human action – of cause and effect involving God-given reason.

Free enterprise doesn’t emphasise greed and self over the common good – do you know of any legitimate business that can survive without giving its customers value for money, with other similar businesses competing for the customers’’ patronage? Is the State going to do a better job of allocation of scarce resources?

through the eyes of right wing capitalists who see the faith as a justification to exploit the poor

.
You have failed to answer (post #19):
How is Catholicism seen to justify exploiting the poor? Which “right wing capitalists” do such a thing to Catholicism, and how?

 

[tonyrey]

Tonyrey:

I think the flaw is inherent in the system by nature of multitudes of people. We don’t seem to want ex-businessmen as our leaders. We usually don’t elect them. Now, one could make the claim that attorneys are ex-businessmen. But, I never saw them as real businessmen. Real businessmen are people who have to meet payrolls. Remit withheld employment taxes. Remit withheld union fees and dues. Pay 50% of social security. Pay unemployment taxes. Pay workers compensation taxes. Pay sales taxes. Pay health insurance co-shares.

Real businessmen have to weigh out the ultimate cost of raising prices, because their costs of raw materials have escalated. Or, their tax burden has increased. Or, wage and hour has caused an increase in the minimum wages of some, or all, of their workers.

Government officials charge in like wounded Rhinos. Usually without really thinking things through very well. If they had left me alone, I would not be receiving phone calls from ex-employees encouraging me to get back into business so I could re-hire them.

Government regulation is the direct and proximate cause of my ex-employees’ sufferings.

God bless,
jd

I’m not acquainted with the situation in the US but I do know that the new Conservative government in the UK favours big business and unemployment is increasing as a result of their cuts to public services…

 

[tonyrey]

Why is that Uncle’s concern?

I would submit that there is something inherently flawed in any economic system where materialism is the object. Unfortunately, since human beings (flawed human beings) are involved in the process, that means that there will never be any economic system that, in practice, is not going to be flawed…or perhaps one should state is not going to have its vulnerabilities exploited.

No system is invulnerable but if the government is not concerned it’s a very bleak outlook for the most vulnerable **people **in society…

 

[JDaniel]

I’m not acquainted with the situation in the US but I do know that the new Conservative government in the UK favours big business and unemployment is increasing as a result of their cuts to public services…

Tony:

Help me out here. How would cuts to public services cause an increase in unemployment? Is the public sector a large part of your employment number?

Ours is about 35 to 40 million. That’s about 35% of our workforce.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

I was honestly beginning to think that the faith was merely a vehicle for right wing liberal greedy capitalism. But now I have recently found this Distrubitist theory of economics, advocated by the Thomist Donald P. Goodman III and many learned and important Catholics, and this has made me see an alternative to leaving the faith and becoming a socialist. I am feeling so happy and joyous right now. I am really apart of something special.

See here - distributistreview.com/mag/

youtube.com/watch?v=IRtyOkfpvSI&feature=related

Peace.

MoM:

The biggest single problem that I see with this economic concept is that it removes power from people that thrive on it. Most, or, at least a great many, of our politicians crave power. To abruptly remove it from them is to do so at your own possible peril. The mortgage industry was doing just fine until the politicians intervened and started throwing their weight around.

True, not everyone could own a house, under the older system. But, not everyone should own a house. A house is not an entitlement. You live with mom and dad, or in a cheaper apartment, until you can own.

Power, it would seem, does corrupt.

On a further note, considering the state of the rest of the world, distributism may be much too late an invention.

God bless,
jd

 

[yorkshiregirl]

Lets read things in context: catholicity.com/commentary/hargrave/05601.html

*** The right to a just wage.**
* The right to rest.
* The right to a working environment and to manufacturing processes that are not harmful to the workers' physical health or moral integrity.
* The right that one's personality in the workplace should be safeguarded without suffering any affront to one's conscience or personal dignity.
* **The right to appropriate subsidies necessary for the subsistence of unemployed workers and their families.**
* The right to a pension and to insurance for old age, sickness, and in case of work-related accidents.
* The right to social security connected with maternity.
* The right to assemble and form associations.

When I say I am a ‘Socialist’ it is exactly these things above I am thinking about. I generally vote Labour here not because I want some huge state or because some policies of theirs don’t want to make me tear my hair out, because they do. However when I vote, I vote for the poorest person I know. As much as the others may say they are for the poor, I remember the way the poor suffered under their last administration. I pray it will not be the same this time. Unfortunately there are no Catholic political parties - it would make it so much easier. Until there are, I have to make my decisions on those who put their names on the ballot papers. When I eventually stand in front of St. Peter he may tell me I got it wrong, but I hope God will see I made my decisions for the lesser of society, not because I was going to do better from them.

 

[markomalley]

When I say I am a ‘Socialist’ it is exactly these things above I am thinking about. I generally vote Labour here not because I want some huge state or because some policies of theirs don’t want to make me tear my hair out, because they do. However when I vote, I vote for the poorest person I know. As much as the others may say they are for the poor, I remember the way the poor suffered under their last administration. I pray it will not be the same this time. Unfortunately there are no Catholic political parties - it would make it so much easier. Until there are, I have to make my decisions on those who put their names on the ballot papers. When I eventually stand in front of St. Peter he may tell me I got it wrong, but I hope God will see I made my decisions for the lesser of society, not because I was going to do better from them.

Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.

Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, 120
​

Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again *the principle of subsidiarity *must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.

John Paul II, Centesimus Annus, 48
​

Just something to think about.