I am a Moderate Catholic (or, here's a big target on my forehead)

[Steadfast]

I am a moderate Catholic. Here are a few things I think and believe:

1. I do not see it as my duty to slander Luther and Calvin at every opportunity. I continue to believe that they both had much to say which is valid and valuable, I consider them to have been Christian men of unusual gifts who followed their consciences as closely and as honestly as they could.
2. I try always to assume first that Protestant Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ and to deal with them in light of the fact.
3. I don’t read stupid or bad books (Fr. O’Hare’s book on Luther, for example, “Triumph” by W. Crocker for another).
4. When I encounter drooling fundamentalists, I ignore them, whether they’re Protestant or Catholic.
5. I do not think that the Western Church will collapse if we don’t return to the Tridentine mass.
6. I think Vatican II resulted in a truly Catholic consensus with both the left and the right envisioning different conclusions and, having been forced to compromise, ended up with a series of documents they have proceeded to interpret or ignore as they see fit.
7. I think that if we take the whole results of the council in view we actually end up with pretty much what one encounters “on the ground” in the average Catholic parish (whatever that is).
8. I don’t pretend that the Church has always believed in Transubstantiation, but that its earliest conceptions on the Sacrament, while truly upholding the Real Presence, made no reference to such scholastic subtleties.
9. I believe that Abortion is murder.
10. I believe that the diocesan priesthood should be open to married men.
11. I do not believe that priestly ordination should be open to women.
12. I believe that the Bible is truly the Word of God and as such is much more than merely an ancient document relating the historical experience of a specific ethnic group with their god.
13. I believe the Bible to be the most important part of the living tradition of the church such that it deserves it’s own category but that it remains nonetheless a part of that tradition.
14. I have problems with the theory of evolution (remembering that it is, after all, a theory), but I don’t consider its acceptance to be deadly to saving faith.

Cont’d

 

[Steadfast]

1. I think Soteriological Justification has a definite forensic aspect too often lost in legal language but which, nonetheless, is properly spoken of as a reckoning by God of sinners as righteous for the sake of Christ.
2. I believe the atonement to have been both vicarious and substitutionary.
3. I think my co-religionists have tended to make far too much of Mary while my Protestant brothers and sisters (with a few exceptions) have tended to make far too little of her.
4. I think the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and of the Immaculate Conception of the BVM were unfortunately conceived, of extremely questionable catholicity and have created unnecessary ecumenical difficulties.
5. I think Birth-Control is a Bad Idea but I don’t think the Church should have that much to say about what a husband and his wife do in the marriage bed. I can understand the concern about and prohibition of specifically abortifacient forms of birth control but a rule against contraception (meaning the prevention of conception) seems a bit silly since it’s pretty much exactly what NFP effects, just without the introduction of a prophylactic device.
6. I think divorced and remarried Catholics, after confession and penance should be readmitted to full sacramental fellowship if only after the first divorce.
7. I don’t like the rosary.
8. I believe the priestly sex abuse scandal to have been, mostly the result of emotionally immature homosexuals being allowed to remain positions where they had liberty to prey on adolescents.
9. I believe the bishops of the church who shuffled offending priests, required secrecy from the victims of their predations and who only expressed grief and concern after the scandal hit the media are culpable of not only giving aid and comfort but of creating and perpetuating the culture responsible.
10. I only catch glimpses of the peace I recall from my youth in a church where the Sacrament is reserved.
11. I believe that an immediate experience of the divine can be had but that it is not for everyone.

 

[Ace86]

1. I don’t pretend that the Church has always believed in Transubstantiation, but that its earliest conceptions on the Sacrament, while truly upholding the Real Presence, made no reference to such scholastic subtleties.

I wonder what Jesus would say about that. All doctrine is true, even if the early Christians didn’t understand some of it.

*Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst. But I told you that although you have seen (me), you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." The Jews murmured about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven," and they said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring 18 among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

I am the bread of life.
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. Then many of his disciples who were listening said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?" Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father." As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. Jesus then said to the Twelve, "Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."*

 

[Steadfast]

Not sure what your point is.

I don’t deny the real presence, I don’t even deny transubstantiation, all I am saying is that full-blow doctrine came much later.

 

[Brendan]

Not sure what your point is.

I don’t deny the real presence, I don’t even deny transubstantiation, all I am saying is that full-blow doctrine came much later.

I would disagree.

In the Trinity, the early Christians understood 3 Divine Persons in 1 Godhead. The word to describe it came later.

The same is true for Transubstantiation. The early Christians understood it as we do, but the word to describe it came later.

 

[Steadfast]

Do you have any examples of early Christians understanding the real presence to entail a distinction between accident and essence such that the bread and wine cease to exist, only the appearances (accidents) remain even if they didn’t use the word “Transubstantiation” to describe it?

I know they all believed that they receive the True Body and Blood of Jesus in the Sacrament. But where do they distinguish this way?

 

[rescath]

How do you define “moderate” Catholic – that you believe some things that the Church teaches but not others?

 

[whatevergirl]

I think that all things should be done in moderation. Except being Catholic.

 

[Steadfast]

How do you define “moderate” Catholic – that you believe some things that the Church teaches but not others?

It’s a matter of attitude really.Is there anything heretical or heterodox in what I wrote?

 

[whatevergirl]

It’s a matter of attitude really.Is there anything heretical or heterodox in what I wrote?

It’s a matter of relativism…if you don’t want to do something, or believe in it…then it becomes so. Not so.

About 5 years ago, I could see myself writing nearly all of what you posted. But, now, through prayer…research…it seems as though my ‘opinions’ were wrong.

I have often let pride stand between me and my relationship with God.

 

[Steadfast]

It’s a matter of relativism…if you don’t want to do something, or believe in it…then it becomes so. Not so.

About 5 years ago, I could see myself writing nearly all of what you posted. But, now, through prayer…research…it seems as though my ‘opinions’ were wrong.

I have often let pride stand between me and my relationship with God.

Again, an example from what I’ve written of my doing this would be helpful.

 

[ChristopherM]

I guess i just have a problem with labels within the church (moderate, Neoconservative, Traditionalist)

if you label yourself one way or another then Your not really adhering the first mark of the church that we are One.

I pray that one day maybe some day when one announces they are Catholic, it is crystal clear exactly where you stand. Its not “I’m Catholic… but I think divorced and remarried Catholics, after confession and penance should be readmitted to full sacramental fellowship if only after the first divorce.”

you would then imply that upon your own thoughts you believed different than what the church believes…if you pass your belief on as formal Catholic belief then i would call that heresy…

 

[TorontoCatholic]

1. I think the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and of the Immaculate Conception of the BVM were unfortunately conceived, of extremely questionable catholicity and have created unnecessary ecumenical difficulties.

I know many Orthodox and Protestants have problems with these dogmas, but who cares if the dogmas are true? We must never compromise the true faith for mere ecumenical relations.

1. I think Birth-Control is a Bad Idea but I don’t think the Church should have that much to say about what a husband and his wife do in the marriage bed. I can understand the concern about and prohibition of specifically abortifacient forms of birth control but a rule against contraception (meaning the prevention of conception) seems a bit silly since it’s pretty much exactly what NFP effects, just without the introduction of a prophylactic device.

Is it okay then for a married couple to have anal sex or oral sex with intention of vaginal penetration and thus no intention to conceive? Is it okay to masturbate? By saying this you question the Church’s authority in matters of morals. The Church has said contraception is gravely sinful since day 1. This was accepted without question for 19 and a half centuries, even by all Protestants until 1931. Why must this change now? Paul VI said case closed in 1967 with Humanae Vitae, therefore, the case is closed.

By saying that it’s pretty much the same as NFP introduces a consequentialist attitude, which is very dangerous. NFP does not prevent conception from taking place like artificial contraceptives do. Although the intention may be the same, the means are very different. NFP is morally acceptable, artifical contraceptives are not.

1. I think divorced and remarried Catholics, after confession and penance should be readmitted to full sacramental fellowship if only after the first divorce.

The divorced and remarried Catholic is still committing adultery.

1. I don’t like the rosary.

Why not?

 

[ChristopherM]

Why not?

That bugged me too

why not?

 

[Steadfast]

Re: the IC and PI the questionable catholicity is the real problem. They remain either heretical or nondogmatic in the East.

Re: Sexual Activity. It’s nobody’s business but the married couple’s

Re: the Rosary, I just don;t like it.

Neither did St. Therese, so I am in good company.

 

[pprimeau1976]

If you want to call yourself a moderate Catholic, great. I consider myself moderate as well. Mind you I never stop being Catholic, I just don’t refer to turning water into Kool-aid as transubstantiating it.

Likewise, I can call myself a moderate male because I don’t watch ESPN 24x7, or even 1x7. Let’s face it…I hate sports. But I’m still a man.

If you ever call yourself a moderate poster, I will have to declare you ANATHEMA though. Ooops…that wasn’t moderate.

 

[whatevergirl]

You don’t have to like the Rosary to be a devout Catholic. It’s not a mortal sin to not pray the Rosary. But, I used to not ‘get it,’ not so much I didn’t like it…but over time…I’ve grown to really like the time asking Mary to pray for me. Who better to ask than the mother of Christ?

Regarding the pride statement…starting every sentence with I!!

 

[thebigbrainiac]

An interesting, and thoughtful post. I must say that I agree with much of what you say, and I will address most of the points where I believe we differ in opinion. I am a Catholic (no prefixes for me, thanks).

1. When I encounter drooling fundamentalists, I ignore them, whether they’re Protestant or Catholic.

I like to defend the faith when I encounter people who attack it, Protestants or Catholics.

1. I do not think that the Western Church will collapse if we don’t return to the Tridentine mass.

Neither do I, in fact, I think that would be a harmful change. Yet, it is hard to deny that there are problems with the new liturgy as well.

1. I believe that the diocesan priesthood should be open to married men.

Simply, I disagree, though this is the Eastern tradition.

1. I think the dogmas of Papal Infallibility and of the Immaculate Conception of the BVM were unfortunately conceived, of extremely questionable catholicity and have created unnecessary ecumenical difficulties.

I can only agree here with the last point, and only somewhat. They are necessary aspects of the faith, and have been long believed by the Christian church.

1. I think Birth-Control is a Bad Idea but I don’t think the Church should have that much to say about what a husband and his wife do in the marriage bed. I can understand the concern about and prohibition of specifically abortifacient forms of birth control but a rule against contraception (meaning the prevention of conception) seems a bit silly since it’s pretty much exactly what NFP effects, just without the introduction of a prophylactic device.

The failure here is the understanding of the use of NFP. People shouldn’t be using it simply to avoid pregnancy, without serious reasons. You shouldn’t want to just not have children, that’s not the point of NFP.

1. I think divorced and remarried Catholics, after confession and penance should be readmitted to full sacramental fellowship if only after the first divorce.

If they are not living in a state of sin, then there really is no problem. If, in the eyes of the Church, they are having marital relations with someone who they are not married to, this is something that needs to first stop and be repented of, otherwise the sacramental confession cannot even work.

1. I don’t like the rosary.

And, I don’t like the divine offices. It’s really not terrible, prayer is best when it is a fruitful reflection of your interior life.

1. I believe that an immediate experience of the divine can be had but that it is not for everyone.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean, but I think I disagree. I think that everyone can have the divine experience.

 

[whatevergirl]

Sometimes, I wonder…just throwing this out there…when people type up posts announcing that they are moderate Catholics…maybe they want people to sway them? Maybe this is a cry for help, steadfast. (j/k)

 

[Caesar]

Why is it never enough to just follow the teachings of the Church? But NOOOO, people have to question everything and personalize it…