I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

Well, I can’t honestly be sure of course, such a claim is empty unless really experienced.

Thank you. I hear many such claims and they all sound empty. I wish people would not take it to mean that I think they are empty, I just don’t get anything supernatural out of it.

All I can say is that in order for me to be certain of the experience I would be allowed to ask questions, and I would imagine the answers would surprise me. Now you could argue that even asking questions and getting surprising answers could be part of a hallucination, (on and on we go…) But hallucinations and illusions are tricks of the mind, God doesn’t reveal Himself to trick you or make you guess, my faith tells me the answers would be crystal clear, even after the experience is long over.

Even if the answers were clear, that doesn’t mean that they weren’t an hallucination. Let me give you an example…
If your phone rang, in the middle of the night and you answered.
If the voice said ‘this is A from the forums, I am a tall man’.
There is a real possibility that you dreamed, or hallucinated that. (I would say a strong possibility since I don’t have your number). Even though the facts check out (I am a man, and would be considered tall at 185cm), that doesn’t mean that the phone call really happened.
How would you discover the truth of the matter, when your memory is quite clear about the whole thing?
I would (if it were me) do things like checking phone records, ask those living with me if they remember the phone ringing, etc…the thing is, it would do no good to ask myself if it was real - I already know that I think so.

As to the second comment “If I had such an experience, I would certainly relate it here”
Hmmm… I don’t know, maybe. I guess it all depends on what the “hallucination” is telling you. Personally I think the internet is a terrible way to evangelize (for lack of a better term)

I am not trying to evangelize, but I would share it here because it is relevant to the conversations which I have put so much in to.
Also many others have put much into these discussions. I would feel that I owed them that bit of honesty.

 

[_A]

Here’s a question for A and anyone else,

Can you think of an experience or situation that cannot be hallucinated or made to look convincing through illusion?

I’m thinking too…

I don’t think so, but as you gather independent verification of details, the most likely answer becomes apparent.

I don’t want to get into full-blown solipsism here, but it is certainly possible to make someone hallucinate just about anything (I use ‘hallucinate’ in the broad, non-clinical sense here to mean 'having your senses misled).
I think if we can find exceptions, that will be helpful.

 

[Mr.Bee]

Even if the answers were clear, that doesn’t mean that they weren’t an hallucination. Let me give you an example…
If your phone rang, in the middle of the night and you answered.
If the voice said ‘this is A from the forums, I am a tall man’.
There is a real possibility that you dreamed, or hallucinated that. (I would say a strong possibility since I don’t have your number). Even though the facts check out (I am a man, and would be considered tall at 185cm), that doesn’t mean that the phone call really happened.
How would you discover the truth of the matter, when your memory is quite clear about the whole thing?
I would (if it were me) do things like checking phone records, ask those living with me if they remember the phone ringing, etc…the thing is, it would do no good to ask myself if it was real - I already know that I think so.

Eeewww… Indeed that would be weird if you called me up in the middle of the night, I would hope it was all the Nyquil I took

But seriously. If I did get the call, I would ask: “What do you want?” Your answer might determine how seriously I considered the experience. (How the heck did you get my number!! might be another question).

But you’re right, you can’t know for sure. And these hypothetical examples don’t really satisfy either.

 

[_A]

Eeewww… Indeed that would be weird if you called me up in the middle of the night, I would hope it was all the Nyquil I took

But seriously. If I did get the call, I would ask: “What do you want?” Your answer might determine how seriously I considered the experience. (How the heck did you get my number!! might be another question).

But you’re right, you can’t know for sure. And these hypothetical examples don’t really satisfy either.

Some philosophers claim that nothing can be known for sure. I think with the situation as I have described it, you have ways of being reasonably certain. You could indeed ask me how I got your number, but more importantly, you could check with the telephone company to see if a call came in to your number at that time, and further check if it came from my location.
It would not be perfect, but as you can see, an independant, unbiased observer (the phone company’s electronic records) provide a reasonable amount of certainty that I did not make such a call.
As you can see though, the fact that the voice made claims (I am a man, and I am tall) does not play into this. Also, the fact that the claims are true is meaningless in this case.
Now I would really like to know if anyone has an example of something which cannot be ‘hallucinated’.
For that matter, I can see that the word ‘hallucinate’ is not the best one to describe what I am trying to…does anyone have other suggestions?

 

[Mr.Bee]

Some philosophers claim that nothing can be known for sure. I think with the situation as I have described it, you have ways of being reasonably certain. You could indeed ask me how I got your number, but more importantly, you could check with the telephone company to see if a call came in to your number at that time, and further check if it came from my location.
It would not be perfect, but as you can see, an independant, unbiased observer (the phone company’s electronic records) provide a reasonable amount of certainty that I did not make such a call.
As you can see though, the fact that the voice made claims (I am a man, and I am tall) does not play into this. Also, the fact that the claims are true is meaningless in this case.
Now I would really like to know if anyone has an example of something which cannot be ‘hallucinated’.
For that matter, I can see that the word ‘hallucinate’ is not the best one to describe what I am trying to…does anyone have other suggestions?

It becomes difficult and clouded when comparing a typical situation like the one you described, and an encounter with God, a situation that most, if not all would consider miraculous.

Comparing examples that fall into the realm of strange and “supernatural”, such as ghosts, UFO’s or sightings of Bigfoot, may very well indeed be hallucinations, hoaxes or misunderstandings, but they all have explanations that are tangible. Even your example falls into the realm of possibility if you were to put your mind and energy into it.

But I thought we were talking about God? Specifically a “Yahweh encounter” And that is what interests me about your question. Everything else, (UFO, Bigfoot, creepy phone calls…) if it were to happen to me, would require an explanation rooted in earthly reality.

If I had an encounter that claimed to be a message from God, I might approach it differently. And the difference would be this:
I would ask a question or two - Who are you? & What do you want?

This is all assuming I’m a sane individual. But I would want to make sure of who exactly I’m encountering, The fact that I’m able to ask the question freely should be a good indication, and the answer would be evidence to whether it’s really God, the devil, or just me freaking out on cheap wine. If it really was God I was talking to, and God is what I believe Him to be, then illusion and superstition are powerless. If you don’t believe in God, then my explanation makes no sense.

But here is a twist to my explanation. I don’t think a truly rational, sane and faithful person of God really wants to have one of these Yahweh experiences. Do you realize what that actually involves? Talking to God?!? Not even the Pope or Mother Teresa got to talk to God personally, and if they did they didn’t talk about it to anyone afterward. And besides, if God does decide to come and talk to you, it probably means two things, He’s either really upset, and/or He want you to do something really, really, really difficult. But I feel strongly that God never resorts to cheap, commercial and obvious tactics such as “Yahweh experiences” and dramatic visions like those out of Hollywood. His ways are dignified and effective.

So, the people who hallucinated the Yahweh experience are probably the ones who started the wacky cult churches, or did something worse…

And the people who have had genuine spiritual encounters, probably didn’t expect or want it in the first place, and hopefully are quietly doing what they are asked to do.

I know this answer won’t satisfy you A, To me questions of faith don’t mix well with rationality. But it’s how I would know the difference.

 

[mmm1]

What would be the point? You have no similar event. All your events will have humans around who could have been manipulating. Please get to your point.

Hi, A. I’m not sure if this discusion is ongoing, but I do have a thought for you. You were reluctant to give Water an example of a single instance of hundreds of people hallucinating the same thing at the same time & at the same place. After several posts back & forth, you posted the above.

I’m not the best person to describe this to you, but I’m curious about your thoughts regarding the events in Fatima on Oct. 13, 1917. Thousands witnessed a miracle in which the sun plunged toward the earth & “danced” around. Others also witnessed this from other locations. Many nonbelievers & skeptical journalists went to witness the spectacle & to prove how foolish the peasant believers were. Many nonbelievers witnessed the miracle & converted that day. I believe an atheist journalist wrote about the experience. This miracle happened after heavy downpours. The ground & clothing of the people were soaked. The ground & clothing dried instantly, I believe after days of downpours. Hallucinations don’t dry clothing…

 

[mmm1]

I have to help my daughter study science, but I’ll check back.

 

[_A]

It becomes difficult and clouded when comparing a typical situation like the one you described, and an encounter with God, a situation that most, if not all would consider miraculous.

I was just trying to describe the question I was asking.

Comparing examples that fall into the realm of strange and “supernatural”, such as ghosts, UFO’s or sightings

or Yahweh sightings

of Bigfoot, may very well indeed be hallucinations, hoaxes or misunderstandings,

Yes all of them, even the one I added in there. If you think about it, there are many mutually exclusive religions out there. If one of them is ‘right’ the rest are ‘wrong’. So Zeus sightings, Apollo abductions and Flying Spaghetti Monster encounters, will all need reasonable rebuttal before moving into the Abrahamic faiths.

but they all have explanations that are tangible. Even your example falls into the realm of possibility if you were to put your mind and energy into it.
But I thought we were talking about God? Specifically a “Yahweh encounter” And that is what interests me about your question. Everything else, (UFO, Bigfoot, creepy phone calls…) if it were to happen to me, would require an explanation rooted in earthly reality.

Why would you just believe what might be a wrong faith? Have you seriously examined and discarded every other faith available?
If you did decide not to follow a faith, how did you decide which faiths were ‘wrong’ and which were ‘right’?

If I had an encounter that claimed to be a message from God, I might approach it differently. And the difference would be this:
I would ask a question or two - Who are you? & What do you want?

This is all assuming I’m a sane individual. But I would want to make sure of who exactly I’m encountering, The fact that I’m able to ask the question freely should be a good indication, and the answer would be evidence to whether it’s really God, the devil, or just me freaking out on cheap wine. If it really was God I was talking to, and God is what I believe Him to be, then illusion and superstition are powerless. If you don’t believe in God, then my explanation makes no sense.

You ain’t kidding…I can make no sense of it. I don’t even understand why you have discarded many faiths in favour of one. How do you tell the difference when it all comes down to personal feeling?

But here is a twist to my explanation. I don’t think a truly rational, sane and faithful person of God really wants to have one of these Yahweh experiences. Do you realize what that actually involves? Talking to God?!? Not even the Pope or Mother Teresa got to talk to God personally, and if they did they didn’t talk about it to anyone afterward. And besides, if God does decide to come and talk to you, it probably means two things, He’s either really upset, and/or He want you to do something really, really, really difficult. But I feel strongly that God never resorts to cheap, commercial and obvious tactics such as “Yahweh experiences” and dramatic visions like those out of Hollywood. His ways are dignified and effective.

It is still perfectly possible to hallucinate a dignified and effective being. In fact, I have not yet heard about a single thing which could not be hallucinated.

So, the people who hallucinated the Yahweh experience are probably the ones who started the wacky cult churches, or did something worse…

Yup, to me, all of them. I have seen no reason to prefer one over another.

To me questions of faith don’t mix well with rationality.

I think that sums up our conflict nicely.

 

[_A]

Hi, A. I’m not sure if this discusion is ongoing, but I do have a thought for you. You were reluctant to give Water an example of a single instance of hundreds of people hallucinating the same thing at the same time & at the same place. After several posts back & forth, you posted the above.

I’m not the best person to describe this to you, but I’m curious about your thoughts regarding the events in Fatima on Oct. 13, 1917. Thousands witnessed a miracle in which the sun plunged toward the earth & “danced” around.

I think Richard Dawkins said it best (in “The God Delusion”) when he wrote…
Richard Dawkins:

But any of those apparent improbabilities [namely that the crowd experienced a mass hallucination etc.] is far more probable than the alternative: that the Earth was suddenly yanked sideways in its orbit, and the Solar System destroyed, with nobody outside Fatima noticing. I mean, Portugal is not that isolated.

 

[mmm1]

Hi, A. Being new at this kind of discussion, I had wondered for a while what atheists thought about that event. In real life I would be way too timid & uneducated to disagree with Richard Dawkins, but I do disagree with him. I would never convince him of anything, but that’s ok. I just don’t believe thousands would hallucinate about the same thing. Wouldn’t some in the crowd be looking around like,“Huh, what is wrong with them? Why are they freaking out? What kind of mushrooms did they have in their lunch?” Some in the crowd would invariably be unable to see all the commotion. The rest of the people were terrified. Again, not everyone would see the EXACT same hallucination. The people who weren’t so sensitive to hallucination, weren’t so gullible, would start spreading the word that it was a hoax. I don’t think any such reports have come from all those thousands.

Again, people from outside of Fatima did witness the sun’s strange behavior. If we’re going to consider (just for argument’s sake) that Christians are correct & God exists, we have to go all the way & really imagine a God who could create universes just for kicks. Dawkins isn’t doing that. He’s placing silly human limitations on Him. Honestly, who says God would have to yank the earth sideways & destroy the solar system in order to accomplish this? I think the Being that created the sun could make it plunge & dance a little without following the observable rules of physics if He wants. God can laugh at the little lessons we’ve learned over the millenia & make the sun dance if He wants too.

And I’m still curious how the ground & clothing dried instantaneously from a mass hallucination.

 

[_A]

And I’m still curious how the ground & clothing dried instantaneously from a mass hallucination.

I don’t know that it was a mass hallucination, either. What I think is that the sun did not jump around all over the earth, so whatever it was was pretty localized.
I don’t know all the details, but could it be an hallucinogenic agent in the water supply? Could it have been an atmospheric effect?

What reason is there to think that the real boss of the whole universe decided to make this kind of demonstration?

Isn’t it much more likely that something pretty ordinary happened? (I am not saying that either explanation is correct, just more likely)

 

[mmm1]

Thanks for replying & answering me so openly, A. I’m getting a little nervous because I haven’t discussed things like this with atheists before, just a teeny bit with a skeptical relative. I read a little bit of your 1st thread a while back, & I’m feeling intimidated because you were so intelligent & likable, with cool pictures, too… Anyway, I guess it could have been an atmospheric thing or something in the water, but of course I (I don’t know how to put something in italics, but I would italicize the I) don’t think so. The part that is also fascinating is, Mary had told the children for months that they would see a miracle on that day. So, it could have been a flukey kind of thing, but what are the chances that thousands are affected by a substance in the water on THAT day? Or that a wierd atmospheric sun mirage happen in THAT location on the SAME day? I wish I knew more details to share with you, but it is interesting.

 

[mmm1]

What reason is there to think that the real boss of the whole universe decided to make this kind of demonstration?

Sorry to post twice in a row, but I just now had a thought about this. I honestly believe God loves all of us so fully, He wants all of us to be with Him some day. I do believe in hell, even if it’s an utter & permanent loss of connection to God. That would be bad enough… Whatever form it takes, I believe it’s so bad God doesn’t want to lose one of us. I know it sounds simplistic, but I think of the verse about Jesus not wanting to lose one of His little sheep (Can’t think of the exact verse, very weak on the Bible).

I think that might be why every once in a while God allows us little glimpses, or gives private revelations once in a while. He knows it’s difficult for us to continue to have faith, & every so often throughout the ages He reveals things to us to keep His Church going. Whether it’s Our Lady of Guadalupe’s tulma or Eucharistic miracles or Lourdes. He knows our nature & that we need a little connection or help … This kind of talk probably makes you nuts, & I can understand that, but it’s truly what I think.

 

[mmm1]

My husband’s home & I need to sign off, but thanks for the discussion. I’ll check back tomorrow if anyone is still chatting on this interesting thread.

 

[Pax]

What I am saying is that the person experiencing it also has no way of knowing if it is true or not - I am not suggesting that people are lying about their experiences. I am saying that the experience itself has no value as evidence. Even if it is me having the experience.
Except that in the world of science, where individual observations are compared and collected, we have end results like the theory of falling bodies, which yields quite useful information for things like airplanes, and escalators.

…
…

I appreciate your difficulty and what you are looking for. That having been said, I would point out that “the world of science” is not the only source of knowledge, and that not all things are learned or understood through the scientific method. Things are learned and understood through philosophy as well.

We might get an appreciation for what faith is and how coming to faith is different from a hallucination by a human experience that most of us have probably had at one time or another.

Every so often we will face a problem that seems to defy a solution. No matter how long and hard we study the problem, we just can’t seem to come up with an answer. Sometimes, a genuine, and workable solution to the problem will hit us with a sudden and not so subtle realization. This can occur upon waking from a sound sleep or simply at a random moment during the day. The realization that we experience is quite real, yet it may not be subject to immediate scientific scrutiny. It is even possible that it will never be subject to scientific scrutiny.

If we decide to implement the solution externally and apply it to the problem, we might then be able to see the realization of the solution put into concrete terms that could be measured and verified. This would merely be an application of the solution. You might contend that this would be a necessary proof that the realization of the solution was real, but I would disagree. I would contend that the realization of the solution was real; it was not a hallucination; that the application of the solution would only be a demonstration; and finally that the realization of the solution even if it were never applied to the problem would, nevertheless, be real.

The realization of truth that we experience when we are given the gift of faith is similar to the experience of a realization that we have in arriving at a real, genuine, and workable solution to a problem. We have a conviction and certitude that is quite different from a hallucination.

It may be possible to point out a real life example of a realization that is a genuine and workable solution to a problem, not a hallucination, and yet not subject to scientific analysis and verification other than by some related effect. Take the example of a person that is self centered and oblivious to the fact that their behavior hurts other people. At some point in time, he/she comes to a sudden and unexpected realization that the selfishness is wrong, hurtful, and self-destructive. This realization is genuine…it is not a hallucination. The only external evidence of the realization is the testimony by the person themselves, and perhaps a change in their externally observable behavior. The event is otherwise devoid of any and all scientific measurement and verification.

Faith is similar. We have a genuine realization and certitude that God exists. We know that God exists with the same certitude that we know that other things exist that we cannot see or measure. The effects of our faith can be measured and observed in the form of Christian love and all that our faith calls us to in this life. Even science can record the external changes in a persons behavior and life. Perhaps that could be some of the proof you need.

I hope this helps.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Hi A,

I think we still have some further discussion to be had regarding love, but - later.

About hallucination: You have implied many times in your initial thread (Part 1), and now a few times in this thread, that *most *people hallucinate regularly. I think I must be an anomaly, as I very rarely dream. I know a lot of other people who are the same way.

How do you (A), determine in your life what is reality and what is hallucinating? (Perhaps an alternate term could be “just imagining things”.) I know you said that you seek to verify using reliable, unbiased sources. But what do you do when you’re all by yourself for many days, for example? Do you consider yourself to be the reliable, unbiased source?

 

[Mr.Bee]

Okay A

I’m a little disappointed because you commented on all the silly Bigfoot garbage I talked about, but you didn’t comment on the statement I thought the most important

“And the people who have had genuine spiritual encounters, probably didn’t expect or want it in the first place, and hopefully are quietly doing what they are asked to do.”

I think in order to understand my position and explanation, one need to have a reasonable understanding of God, and not just discount God’s existance as mere imagination. If God is a delusion, then the love I have for my children is nothing more than a psychological phenomenon, a product of self-serving and desperate wishful thinking. However, I don’t put much faith in science to control my feeling of love.

Love is selfless,a hallucination is selfish and has nothing to do with love. Hallucinations are easy, encounters with Yahweh are extremely difficult.

If you have an understanding of God, and He makes Himself known to you, the experience is NOT about you. So best you keep quiet and do what He says.

So again, if I had a “vision” I would ask the question; “what do you want?” And the answer would tell me if it’s a real encounter or not.

If you’re hallucinating, I doubt you’ll ask the right questions (IMHO)

 

[AndrewLong]

So again, if I had a “vision” I would ask the question; “what do you want?” And the answer would tell me if it’s a real encounter or not.
(IMHO)

But I’ve had plenty of dreams where I see myself carrying on a whole conversation with someone – daydreams in the same manner as well – only to come to my senses and realize the “visions” we only my imagination.

 

[mmm1]

But I’ve had plenty of dreams where I see myself carrying on a whole conversation with someone – daydreams in the same manner as well – only to come to my senses and realize the “visions” we only my imagination.

Yeah, but most often, if we take a look at it, those conversations are pretty strange & make no sense. Most of us, like you, came to our senses & easily realized it was a dream. I don’t know too many people that go for years thinking a hallucination or dream is real, & base their whole lives on them.

 

[_A]

Thanks for replying & answering me so openly, A. I’m getting a little nervous because I haven’t discussed things like this with atheists before,

Don’t be nervous - I am just a regular guy. I have no superhuman powers. Also, I am only a little above average intelligence (according to those shifty online IQ tests, so we are likely fairly close to even)

with cool pictures, too…

Thanks, mostly I just found them on the net (except for the ones I took) so I can only take partial credit. The one pic of me with a huge fish was more a credit to my sweetheart. She plucked that beasty out of the water (cut her fingers a little doing it) put it in my hands, then took the picture. I just stood there looking, well, like I looked. She did the hard work.
I gotta tell you, I have never known a better fishing partner (and that ain’t the half of it!!!)

I wish I knew more details to share with you, but it is interesting.

What I find interesting about the ‘fatima’ event is that, while god is said to have made the sun dance around, there is no evidence anywhere else that this happened.
The sun is visible to many more. How come none outside of that geographic area witnessed it? If it was witnessed in such a small area (as reports suggest), then is was a localized phenomena, and those stating that the sun was moved are merely misinterpreting what they saw.
What else might they be misinterpreting?