I am an atheist thread 2

[BlaineTog]

Catholicism is extremely elusive. Pinning down exactly what they teach is extremely difficult

Um, no, not really. The Catechism is pretty broad and there’s a great wealth of resources, both in print and on the internet, to help answer whatever questions anyone might have. Plus, you could always go ask a priest at your local church (I’m sure there’s one near you, though it has to be said that not every priest is a world-renounced theological intellectual).

The fact that those questions are asked is reason enough to reject the Church as the sole, inspiried athority about God’s intentions and commands.

Excuse me? That people have questions is enough to claim that someone who has the answers if only you’ll listen sincerely is wrong? That’s a non sequitur if ever I heard one.

 

[_A]

Not yet…why are you on a Catholic forum if not thirsting for the truth?

touche ! I am interested in the truth, though perhaps not exactly how you mean. I was reading a book called ‘Breaking the Spell’, and I started to wonder about faithful people, and what makes them think that their faith is as weighty as empirical facts.
Also, I don’t know many persons of faith, they are kind of rare where I live, so if I wanted to chat with some of them, an anonymous web forum is a quite open way to do so.
I guess there are many reasons. I started it because of having an interest in what makes people faithful, which was kindled by that book. I have stayed because overall I enjoy the people and the discussions.

 

[Mirdath]

Sorry you got that from a single quote. I assure you, It certainly wasn’t meant to offend. Especially when you see how he writes in context with other great quotes. Check this out if you’re interested. See with broader context, why Padre Pio would say what I use as a signature. .
members.aol.com/pacebene/AMDG.html

Thanks. This is what all the fuss is about? Some of the quotes are fairly insightful, if underwhelming given the man’s reputation; others, frankly, are rather dubious at best.

And in an interesting note, if Wikipedia is to be believed (the article cites a source, but I’m not registered at angelusonline.org), Pio did not, in fact, possess unshakable faith. One of his fellow Capuchins apparently reported during his transverberation that ‘During this time his entire appearance looked altered as if he had died.He was constantly weeping and sighing, saying that God had forsaken him.’

Was this behavior from Pio himself an example of an ultimate insult to God? What of the Christ’s cry ‘Eloi, eloi, lama sabathchani?’ on the cross?

 

[whatevergirl]

touche ! I am interested in the truth, though perhaps not exactly how you mean. I was reading a book called ‘Breaking the Spell’, and I started to wonder about faithful people, and what makes them think that their faith is as weighty as empirical facts.
Also, I don’t know many persons of faith, they are kind of rare where I live, so if I wanted to chat with some of them, an anonymous web forum is a quite open way to do so.
I guess there are many reasons. I started it because of having an interest in what makes people faithful, which was kindled by that book. I have stayed because overall I enjoy the people and the discussions.

…and maybe you feel called to Catholicism.

 

[_A]

Good, then we agree as to what a contradiction is.



I understand that you believe there is a contradiction. My sincere difficulty, with which i hope you will help me alleviate, is in understanding why you believe there is a contradiction. Perhaps if you would clearly explain why, then i might see things from your point of view.

I will try to repeat what you appear to be saying to me. That is, you believe this statement:

" ‘Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the LORD,
‘I will frown on you no longer,
for I am merciful,’ declares the LORD,
'I will not be angry forever.
(Jeremiah 3:12)
denies this statement:

“Judah’s sin is engraved with an iron tool,
inscribed with a flint point,
on the tablets of their hearts
and on the horns of their altars.
… Through your own fault you will lose
the inheritance I gave you.
I will enslave you to your enemies
in a land you do not know,
for you have kindled my anger,
and it will burn forever.” (Jeremiah 17:1, 4)

You see, thoughtful A, i’m having trouble understanding how Jeremiah 3 is the opposite of Jeremiah 17. Jeremiah 3 is about God’s opinion of the people of Israel. Jeremiah 17 is about the people of Judah.

If i say i hate Germans but love Frenchmen, there would be no contradiction. How is it contradictory for God to say he will always be angry with the people of Judah but have mercy on the people of Israel?

Please help me understand.

Put that way, it is only bigotry on gods part and not a contradiction at all.
Looked at another way, on one breath Yahweh suggests that he is merciful, and in the next, he condemns a race of people for eternity.
Doesn’t sound like he would still be willing to accept an apology, does it?

 

[_A]

Will you give me just one example of the application of a complex code which has no intelligence behind it? I’m unaware of any, yet you appear to know more about the subject than i do.

The DNA code is complex indeed, and none of the respected experts are saying that there is intelligence behind it.

 

[_A]

There has to be a before. Science demands a cause.

If the big bang started time, then saying ‘before the big bang’ is like saying ‘-300 degrees Celsius’. Complete nonsense.
The language that we use is insufficient to the task.
I think this is very important, but I can’t quite get a handle on it, either.
It is no wonder that Hawking didn’t say anything about it.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

If the big bang started time, then saying ‘before the big bang’ is like saying ‘-300 degrees Celsius’. Complete nonsense.

I prefer “What’s north of the North Pole”, myself.

 

[_A]

I have to admit that i have not taken the time to read the posts of anyone else but you and Phooney. Even then, i’ve read each of your replies to only my posts.

It does take a little effort to keep up, doesn’t it?

I’m interested more in what you have to say than in making my points, but i promise to make my point as soon as i understand your thoughts on this.

Aww, don’t bother making promises. I prefer to encourage liberty in the people around me and see what happens. I have been trying to give my opinion, but it feels like every time I answer, I get asked the same thing in a different way. I have been trying to answer, S4J, but perhaps we should sharpen down to one question at a time, or something. Might be clearer.

 

[_A]

I gave you scientists, their lectures, giving you current qualified evidence that is up to date. And you give me THIS?

I was trying to show you that any gods are equally impossible to disprove.
In the words of an author (one who was invited to the Vatican, if memory serves) - “that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”

 

[PenguinsFan]

The DNA code is complex indeed, and none of the respected experts are saying that there is intelligence behind it.

Early scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo, Bacon, Newton, Pascal, and Faraday, believed in the biblical God of objective truth and order. I guess they are not “expert” enough for you.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Early scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo, Bacon, Newton, Pascal, and Faraday, believed in the biblical God of objective truth and order. I guess they are not “expert” enough for you.

On A’s behalf: I don’t think those guys had anything to say about DNA.

 

[_A]

The reason I suggested you think about that question, A is because in a previous post you explained many of the circumstances in life, in your own family, for example., something about how it stretched your mother’s resources to pay tithes, etc., about the sole survivor of the plane crash…you know, that post, where you were citing the unreasonableness of much of the suffering in the world, and how that had an impact on your embracing Atheism as your own existential perspective.

It isn’t so much the suffering (such as a small girl being abused in a terrible way be a stepfather), it is the churchs’ nonsense stand (backed by holy scripture) on this childs’ right to an abortion.
From an article I found here.
catholicnewsagency.com:

Abortion Investigation
Nicaraguan government subpoenas feminists involved in abortion performed on sexually assaulted girl

Managua, Nov 30, 2007 / 04:35 pm (CNA).- Government officials in Nicaragua have subpoenaed six members of the Women Against Violence Network, for being involved in the case of a young girl named “Rosita,’ who was raped by her stepfather and forced to undergo an abortion.

The stepfather’s role in the incident was covered up and feminists from the Network never mentioned him in their condemnation of the crime. As a result, the feminist group has been denounced by the Nicaraguan Association of Human Rights (NAHR)

According to the Nicaraguan daily “La Prensa,” the six women have been summoned to appear before government prosecutors.

The women sought help from the Nicaraguan Center for Human Rights but were rebuffed and now claim that the accusations by the NAHR “lack legitimacy and legal basis.” Press reports indicate that the NAHR accuses the women of “colluding with the girl’s stepfather, Francisco Fletes, and pushing for the abortion until they were able to obtain one for her at a clandestine clinic without adequate medical care.”

In addition, the women from the Network discarded the remains of the aborted child, whose blood samples would have provided a DNA link to the person responsible for the rape.

Were it not for the church-driven bible-inspired criminalization of a medical procedure, much of this extra damage would not have happened. What if the girl died?
Why does she not have the right to escape building a child out of this horrible incident?

 

[_A]

But, what you are saying is that you don’t believe in God at all. Jews, Muslims, Christians, all believe in God. I’m a little confused, because you are weaving ‘faith’ into the equation now, and really, many faiths as you say, might worship God differently, but follow God.

Many worship *different *gods.

May I ask how you came to your conclusion that there is no God?

It isn’t really a conclusion. The gods in the bible I find honestly impossible to believe.
I have never seen evidence, so it is more like ‘there is nothing to believe’, than ‘I disbelieve.’

 

[_A]

…and maybe you feel called to Catholicism.

I guess you could say that, too lol

 

[_A]

I prefer “What’s north of the North Pole”, myself.

Thanks, that does work better as a description.

 

[PenguinsFan]

Using as example of prominent men who believed in God. Not to say modern day scientists advocate an intelligent design, but they are starting to see a connection. Yea we are getting there.

Another note, I have two sisters who are atheists, and my family has heard all the arguments, debates, possibilities, u name it. I digress that convincing an atheist that God exists, is like a one legged man trying to win in a butt kickin’ contest. Actually, that could be easier.

 

[steve_b]

Do you have a stronger argument to show that God was responsible for the beginning of the universe other than we don’t know what happened “before” the big bang, which is merely an argument from ignorance, as I already told you.

Hawking said science won’t be able to determine what happened before the bang. Maybe you call this argument from ignorance.

I prefer to say Hawking recognizes the limitation of science. And I think it is this recognition that keeps science uncomfortable with what it doesn’t know about the beginning of everything. .

phooney:

the more we understand, the less gaps there are for a God to hide in. Nor is the burden of proof on those that aren’t making the claim that god did it.

I’ve shown and you agree, that science doesn’t know what happened before the bang. That’s a big deal you know. Because it’s not good enough to just tell people to believe it is not necessary to know what happened before the bang. It should be an absolute necessessity if the big bang theory is to be taken seriously, to let people know what happened… Right now, The more science knows the more it knows it doesn’t know. It’s getting harder and harder for science to hide behind its no God assumptions, when it has no answers about the beginning of it’s favorite theory on how everything came into existence…

phooney:

It is inferior to all the currently untested, but mathematically sound, hypotheses for the universe, and indistinguishable from a figment of your imagination.

Hawking says, there IS no scientific answer and probably won’t BE one, to answer what happened before the bang. He said some theories were advanced but they were found to use falsified data. If there was a valid theory, he would have mentioned it.

 

[PenguinsFan]

Hawking said science won’t be able to determine what happened before the bang. Maybe you call this argument from ignorance.

I prefer to say Hawking recognizes the limitation of science. And I think it is this recognition that keeps science uncomfortable with what it doesn’t know about the beginning of everything. .

I’ve shown and you agree, that science doesn’t know what happened before the bang. That’s a big deal you know. Because it’s not good enough to just tell people to believe it is not necessary to know what happened before the bang. It should be an absolute necessessity if the big bang theory is to be taken seriously, to let people know what happened… Right now, The more science knows the more it knows it doesn’t know. It’s getting harder and harder for science to hide behind its no God assumptions, when it has no answers about the beginning of it’s favorite theory on how everything came into existence…

Hawking says, there IS no scientific answer and probably won’t BE one, to answer what happened before the bang. He said some theories were advanced but they were found to use falsified data. If there was a valid theory, he would have mentioned it.

Falsified data? “The Copernican principle” alone is a theory about space itself expanding. (along with others) The big bang “model,” well known to most, is that our universe started from a dense small state. I’m oversimplifying, but where are u getting that no one can answer what happened b4 the big bang? Science is growing nearer daily to what happened, there are some darn solid theories on the table. I’m relatively confident there will BE a concrete answer soon.

 

[steve_b]

Thanks. This is what all the fuss is about? Some of the quotes are fairly insightful, if underwhelming given the man’s reputation; others, frankly, are rather dubious at best.

And in an interesting note, if Wikipedia is to be believed (the article cites a source, but I’m not registered at angelusonline.org), Pio did not, in fact, possess unshakable faith. One of his fellow Capuchins apparently reported during his transverberation that ‘During this time his entire appearance looked altered as if he had died.He was constantly weeping and sighing, saying that God had forsaken him.’

Was this behavior from Pio himself an example of an ultimate insult to God? What of the Christ’s cry ‘Eloi, eloi, lama sabathchani?’ on the cross?

Pio had phenominal faith.

Before passing judgement on what you think you see, read his story. All I can say is I should have such faith. I’ve been to his monastery (San Giovanni Rotondo) and talked with his personal assistant Fr Alessio (God rest his soul). Most people have no idea what trials some, who later are declared saints, had to endure.