I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

Hitler did not need to be excommunicated…he was not a practicing Catholic and had left the faith long before he started his political career and murderous escapades.

True, but I still think any thinking catholic would go after getting HIM excommunicated before doing it to me.
I can support abortion for the rest of my life and not risk any reprisals from the RC church. They have lost political power here. If I were in Nicaragua it might be different, of course…

 

[notself]

Hitler did not need to be excommunicated…he was not a practicing Catholic and had left the faith long before he started his political career and murderous escapades.

Henry VIII was excommunicated by the Church 5 years after he became the Head of the Church of England and was no longer a practicing Catholic but rather a Protestant. The Pope did this because formal excommunication released the English Catholics from loyalty to the king and required them to side against Rome against the king.

If the Church had excommunicated Hitler, German and Austrian Catholics would have to work against Hitler. He should have been excommunicated.

 

[_A]

I think the problems you are pointing out apply more to you than me. You just dismissed something as nonsense. Do you have an open mind?

Do you really think that I have just arbitrarily decided that abortion is not good? The fact that I have reached a conclusion about abortion does not mean that I have no room for learning. It could be that my willingness to learn has brought me to that conclusion.

You said that there was an elevated risk of death from ALL CAUSES.
I think that was so far from right it isn’t even wrong lol.
You must have made an error there.

 

[_A]

See it is said that the men who flew the plane into the towers where Islam extremist. Their religion does not teach that it is okay to do what they did.

Isn’t there a line in the Qu’ran (or is it the Hadith…?) that says 'kill the infidel wherever you find him?

It is the fact that they believed that made them so dangerous, not because their belief was right or wrong.

 

[_A]

Why should you be upset that a pro-life group picked up on scientific studies that show the negative outcomes of abortion? It would be one thing if the pro-life group ran the studies themselves and injected a bias, but that is not the case.

The data and studies are not generated by pro-life sources. That is one of the things that increases the reliability of the pro-life position and for looking at the issue objectively.

Would you also say that women should not be allowed to run marathons, because of the increased risk of health problems?
I think the health problems are not a good argument. Possibly good information, but they don’t make me think that it is right to enslave women as walking wombs.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Thanks for that. You seem better equipped to answer Mirdath than I am.

My pleasure - it was a blast.

 

[_A]

Henry VIII was excommunicated by the Church 5 years after he became the Head of the Church of England and was no longer a practicing Catholic but rather a Protestant. The Pope did this because formal excommunication released the English Catholics from loyalty to the king and required them to side against Rome against the king.

If the Church had excommunicated Hitler, German and Austrian Catholics would have to work against Hitler. He should have been excommunicated.

The pope at the time must have thought he was a better man than Gallileo.
appalling, isn’t it?

 

[Pax]

True, but I still think any thinking catholic would go after getting HIM excommunicated before doing it to me.
I can support abortion for the rest of my life and not risk any reprisals from the RC church. They have lost political power here. If I were in Nicaragua it might be different, of course…

Somehow I just don’t think you are a Catholic…atheists aren’t Catholic…how could you be excommunicated?

 

[_A]

Somehow I just don’t think you are a Catholic…atheists aren’t Catholic…how could you be excommunicated?

I was born and baptised by them. I would MUCH rather be excommunicated than risk someone thinking that I am myself supportive of the church’s doctrines and dogma. Do you think you can arrange it?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

The pope at the time must have thought he was a better man than Gallileo.
appalling, isn’t it?

I’m the furthest thing from an expert on either history or canon law, but I don’t think you’re pegging excommunication accurately. Generally speaking, you aren’t excommunicated for committing serious sin, or even doubleplusungood sin.

Wikipedia lists 10 causes for automatic excommunication (obscuro latinus termus):
Apostasy (canon 1364),
Heresy (canon 1364),
Schism (canon 1364),
Desecration of the Eucharist (canon 1367),
Physical violence against the Pope (canon 1370),
Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in a sin against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue (“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) (canon 1378 §1),
Ordination of a bishop without papal mandate (canon 1382),
Direct violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a confessor (canon 1388),
Procurement of a completed abortion (canon 1398), or
Being a conspiring or necessary accomplice in any of the above (canon 1329).

Other than abortion, it seems that excommunication is reserved for religious offenses. So Galileo was not excommunicated because the Pope thought he was an awful person, but because the Pope thought his teachings were damaging to the faith.

I don’t understand why abortion is grounds for an automatic excommunication, but murder is not. Possibly (read: wild uninformed speculation) because murder is more obviously against church teaching? You’d have to go pretty far to find a Catholic who doesn’t know that the church is against abortion though.

Anybody know?

 

[Seshat]

Do you have verification of those statements from anywhere other than an anti-choice website?

Are you damning the source, the data, or both?

It’s just that I know from past experience that such sites tend to cherry-pick only those studies that support their presuppositions, ignore those that don’t agree, and dismiss any study that refutes one that they have already accepted.

 

[Pax]

The pope at the time must have thought he was a better man than Gallileo.
appalling, isn’t it?

I believe that on the first thread you started that we suggested that you research the situation with Galileo. Bringing his name up again in the fashion demonstrates that you have not done so.

 

[Pax]

Would you also say that women should not be allowed to run marathons, because of the increased risk of health problems?
I think the health problems are not a good argument. Possibly good information, but they don’t make me think that it is right to enslave women as walking wombs.

You have not established that pregnancy enslaves women.

 

[notself]

I’m the furthest thing from an expert on either history or canon law, but I don’t think you’re pegging excommunication accurately. Generally speaking, you aren’t excommunicated for committing serious sin, or even doubleplusungood sin.

Wikipedia lists 10 causes for automatic excommunication (obscuro latinus termus):
Apostasy (canon 1364),
Heresy (canon 1364),
Schism (canon 1364),
Desecration of the Eucharist (canon 1367),
Physical violence against the Pope (canon 1370),
Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in a sin against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue (“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) (canon 1378 §1),
Ordination of a bishop without papal mandate (canon 1382),
Direct violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a confessor (canon 1388),
Procurement of a completed abortion (canon 1398), or
Being a conspiring or necessary accomplice in any of the above (canon 1329).

Other than abortion, it seems that excommunication is reserved for religious offenses. So Galileo was not excommunicated because the Pope thought he was an awful person, but because the Pope thought his teachings were damaging to the faith.

I don’t understand why abortion is grounds for an automatic excommunication, but murder is not. Possibly (read: wild uninformed speculation) because murder is more obviously against church teaching? You’d have to go pretty far to find a Catholic who doesn’t know that the church is against abortion though.

Anybody know?

Based on this Hitler died a Catholic. Granted he died a very bad Catholic, but he was not excommunicated, He could have gone to a priest and received confession and communion at any time.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Based on this Hitler died a Catholic. Granted he died a very bad Catholic, but he was not excommunicated, He could have gone to a priest and received confession and communion at any time.

Amen, and praise God.

 

[_A]

I’m the furthest thing from an expert on either history or canon law, but I don’t think you’re pegging excommunication accurately. Generally speaking, you aren’t excommunicated for committing serious sin, or even doubleplusungood sin.

Wikipedia lists 10 causes for automatic excommunication (obscuro latinus termus):
Apostasy (canon 1364),
Heresy (canon 1364),
Schism (canon 1364),
Desecration of the Eucharist (canon 1367),
Physical violence against the Pope (canon 1370),
Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in a sin against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue (“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”) (canon 1378 §1),
Ordination of a bishop without papal mandate (canon 1382),
Direct violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a confessor (canon 1388),
Procurement of a completed abortion (canon 1398), or
Being a conspiring or necessary accomplice in any of the above (canon 1329).

Other than abortion, it seems that excommunication is reserved for religious offenses. So Galileo was not excommunicated because the Pope thought he was an awful person, but because the Pope thought his teachings were damaging to the faith.

I don’t understand why abortion is grounds for an automatic excommunication, but murder is not. Possibly (read: wild uninformed speculation) because murder is more obviously against church teaching? You’d have to go pretty far to find a Catholic who doesn’t know that the church is against abortion though.

Anybody know?

Why protect the pope so carefully?

Also, if this list is honest, someone should tell me which bishop to e-mail with my declaration of support for abortion. I am sure he would like to begin the excommunication process.
Unless it’s all just opinion.

 

[_A]

You have not established that pregnancy enslaves women.

What else would you call forcing pregnancy on someone?

Why is the church so dead-set against allowing women the freedom to decide?

 

[_A]

Based on this Hitler died a Catholic. Granted he died a very bad Catholic, but he was not excommunicated, He could have gone to a priest and received confession and communion at any time.

Thanks. Galileo was forced to recite a prepared speech contradicting what he thought was the truth (it turns out he was right). Then he died under house arrest, and was not allowed to teach.
What did the church do against Hitler (just for comparison)?

 

[theAuthor]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

I’ve not been on drugs or drunk ie I have been in my right mind. It’s not a Carlos Castenata experience.

 

[Minnie31]

She could adopt. Or perhaps she’s infertile because having a child would cause her to become too attached to the child and prefer him to God, which is stupid and absurd in the extreme. Or perhaps she’s meant to find strength in her condition. Or perhaps she’s meant to give strength to others. Or perhaps her calling is to something other than childrearing. Or perhaps a child would really only make her unhappy.

Yes, it means they’re not married in the eyes of God. If I am a paraplegic, I can’t become an Olympic-class runner, I just can’t. Marriage is an event in which two people become one spiritually through the physical act of sex, literally through the act itself. If you can’t perform the act, then you can’t perform the act; that’s just a tautological truth.

With all due respect, I think your justifications here (whether they be your interpretations, the church’s, god’s, or whomever/whatever) are absolutely absurd!