I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

deep breath… hold… exhale…

The difference is: she committed her act of faith to further her position with God,

That, Mr. Bee is an unkind thing to say. The woman said nothing to indicate that. You may be responding to the comments of some people who were commenting on her act for their own reasons.
All that we know about this woman, so far, is that she believed with not only all her heart, but all her life. I don’t know what she was responding to. If a US marine had done something similar, I think your tone would be different. Please show her some deserved courtesy. You might say that she was mislead, but you don’t know that she did it to further her position with her god.
If you bring that in to the argument, I can fairly say that all the ‘good’ that you do is done for the same reason. I don’t think it helps our conversation.

to get into heaven. It was all about her. And she got what she wanted, her picture in the paper. I don’t think suicide in that instance is a selfless act.

If she died trying to impress Allah, then I would say that she has something nearing ‘full’ or ‘complete’ or ‘perfect’ faith, right? I mean there is no doubt that she believed if she killed herself to impress him, right? Yet another reason not to use that particular argument.
Another reason not to be too harsh in your treatment of a stranger.

Reading this, it steams a little, but I am honestly steamed. How could you attack the faith of this woman who can’t defend herself? What makes you so sure that she was being selfish? For selfish, I would say look to those who made social commentary on it later. (ouch-that includes me. I am removing the picture. I apologize)

This young woman was not so different from you or I, so just for a moment, picture yourself doing what she did. How sure would you have to be to make a decision like that? Could you even do it if you had to?

Since I asked you, I will ask me, too.
For me, I think I would shrink in terror, even if such an act were necessary for some reason. If I could do it, I think my legs wouldn’t carry me.
How sure would I have to be? Well, the certainty would have to approach 100%.
When I try to imagine it, I even get a little scared. I doubt that I could complete my function.

 

[mmm1]

Are you trying to suggest that sin and hell were created against the will of Yahweh?

–Not really. God, not into forcing us, ALLOWS us to sin. That is not the same as saying that He created sin.

If I wanted you to love me ‘of your own accord’, should I threaten you with eternal torture if you refuse, and offer eternal rewards if you accept?

–OK. You mention eternal torture in a number of posts. It’s naturally an idea to be concerned with, but you might be looking at it in the wrong light. I don’t think, & the Catholic Church doesn’t teach, that God is sitting on His throne gleefully throwing poor souls screaming in to hell… God, Yahweh, is our father. If we look at His commandments, they don’t look like they are from a God that is willy-nilly in to rules just to be a jerk Like a good parent, they are all designed for our own good, for our well being. Much like I have important rules for my kids. God didn’t give His Church & teachings just for wealthy , enlightened, evolved countries of the 21st century. His rules & consequences are for people of all times & circumstances. Some people throughout history might need the threat of a REALLY bad punishment to motivate us to do the right thing. Ask any teacher. Some kids need that, some don’t. Also, we all know, that given a free will, a few people & supremely intelligent angels are truly evil, & what kind of justice is there or love of all the good people if God ignores that? Besides, All those people have to do is repent & turn to God. I think it is a real mistake to think God enjoys sending lots to hell. Catholics don’t believe people of other faiths are doomed to hell. God knows our nature & that many need the fear of God & consequences, but his incredible mercy is a reality.–

I don’t think so. ‘Accord’ means ‘freedom’ (roughly)
…but if you don’t accept him, he will toss you into eternal torture.
How would ‘infinite mercy’ match up with hell? Isn’t hell supposed to be endless torture? Ya, Jesus is painted as the shepherd. I would remind you that the main ingredient in shepherd’s pie is mutton.

I don’t know exactly what ‘secular humanist’ means, but, having glanced it over, I think that an atheist could be one.

-Thanks!

 

[_A]

Hi, Everyone. I have to agree with Mr. Bee on this one. A, you probably anticipated we would have difficulty with this point. While I think she definitely died for her faith & loved God, I believe their must have been a lot of fear, anger & retribution smoldering there as well. Hatred & pride might have played a part. Not a lot of warm, fuzzy feelings of love ruled the day.

Emphasis mine.

Let’s leave it at that. We really don’t know anything else about her. We could guess, but if she was sacrificing her life to protect her loved ones, there is no higher purpose (so some have said). I don’t like taking sides here, though I know it is really popular at the moment to make pre-judgements about people from the middle-east.

 

[mmm1]

That, Mr. Bee is an unkind thing to say. The woman said nothing to indicate that. You may be responding to the comments of some people who were commenting on her act for their own reasons.
All that we know about this woman, so far, is that she believed with not only all her heart, but all her life. I don’t know what she was responding to. If a US marine had done something similar, I think your tone would be different. Please show her some deserved courtesy. You might say that she was mislead, but you don’t know that she did it to further her position with her god.
If you bring that in to the argument, I can fairly say that all the ‘good’ that you do is done for the same reason. I don’t think it helps our conversation.

If she died trying to impress Allah, then I would say that she has something nearing ‘full’ or ‘complete’ or ‘perfect’ faith, right? I mean there is no doubt that she believed if she killed herself to impress him, right? Yet another reason not to use that particular argument.
Another reason not to be too harsh in your treatment of a stranger.

Reading this, it steams a little, but I am honestly steamed. How could you attack the faith of this woman who can’t defend herself? What makes you so sure that she was being selfish? For selfish, I would say look to those who made social commentary on it later. (ouch-that includes me. I am removing the picture. I apologize)

This young woman was not so different from you or I, so just for a moment, picture yourself doing what she did. How sure would you have to be to make a decision like that? Could you even do it if you had to?

Since I asked you, I will ask me, too.
For me, I think I would shrink in terror, even if such an act were necessary for some reason. If I could do it, I think my legs wouldn’t carry me.
How sure would I have to be? Well, the certainty would have to approach 100%.
When I try to imagine it, I even get a little scared. I doubt that I could complete my function.

I agree with you on some of these points, A, because in a strange way, probably a lot of us can understand how she got to the point where she strapped on that belt. I would never condone the act, but I can imagine how she got there. I wasn’t being judgemental in my last post about her, just honestly trying to imagine some of her emotions. She might have been indoctrinated with lots of hatred of infidels since she was small. She senses ridicule & scorn from them. She thinks they are evil. She might deal with lots of poverty & hopelessness. She undoubtedly loves & fears God & thinks He wants this of her. But, as you well know, feelings are not reality.
I think Mr. Bee was probably writing with the understanding that Moslems are promised big rewards in heaven for martydom, & sometimes paid large sums & fame on earth. I don’t think he was really trying to judge her beyond that.

I think there is a huge difference, however, between being a martyr & being a homicidal. I would hope that I could give my life for my kids, or if someone forced me to denounce Jesus & worship Satan. I know I would be terrified as well, but that’s just in our chemistry.

 

[mmm1]

Emphasis mine.

Let’s leave it at that. We really don’t know anything else about her. We could guess, but if she was sacrificing her life to protect her loved ones, there is no higher purpose (so some have said). I don’t like taking sides here, though I know it is really popular at the moment to make pre-judgements about people from the middle-east.

–I know where you’re coming from & agree, to a point. I was working on my last post & never saw this one when I kept commenting on her. But, in all honesty, you have been the one to bring her up throughout the thread & put her on display. But I completely agree with the great need for understanding & tolerance of others & their faiths (or lack of faith or beliefs).

 

[_A]

–Not really. God, not into forcing us, ALLOWS us to sin. That is not the same as saying that He created sin.

Your Yahweh gets the blame for creating everything. Omnipotent, remember? He can do anything. Remember ‘omniscient’? Means he knows everything. He knew all times and things. When he made Satan, he knew just what he was doing. Your Yahweh is often credited with creating ‘love’, or butterfly’s. Well, the same guy created cancer, smallpox and STI’s.

We’ve beaten smallpox with applied scientific theories.

{There is a really cool website, run by the CDC , which has all sorts of wonderful info. It’s well worth digging around a little. }

 

[Mr.Bee]

I apologize to A and everyone I might have offended. The beauty and **danger **of these thread conversations is you can speak somewhat freely, emotionally and without fear of embarrassment and retribution. (yeah, right)

I have no idea, nor do I claim to have any insight into what was going through that woman’s mind when she did the act that she did. But for the purposes of this conversation we are all free to make assumptions given the information we have. This poor woman has been reduced to a typical example of what’s going on in our world today, maybe she was different? But in the big picture I see this as an example of selfishness, that’s what this whole mess is all about isn’t it? It’s not about God, it’s about “me”

She killed herself, and probably others, in the name of God.

"Thou shalt not kill… "

She didn’t do what God wanted her to do,

So… I think she prefered to listen to someone else, and she didn’t know the difference between a Yahweh encounter and a hallucination.

Peace

 

[_A]

She undoubtedly loves & fears God & thinks He wants this of her. But, as you well know, feelings are not reality.

You said a lot of other things, but the real main point here is that she had faith, and this is as clear a demonstration as is possible.

I think Mr. Bee was probably writing with the understanding that Moslems are promised big rewards in heaven for martydom, & sometimes paid large sums & fame on earth. I don’t think he was really trying to judge her beyond that.

If they believe the stories about the heavenly rewards, they again demonstrate their faith. Remember that, it is kind of my point here.

I think there is a huge difference, however, between being a martyr & being a homicidal.

I don’t understand. To me, a martyr who kills others **is **homicidal.

I would hope that I could give my life for my kids,

I am with you there.

or if someone forced me to denounce Jesus & worship Satan.

I would hope that a compassionate god would not hold it against you if you were forced to say things at gunpoint. What if your choice was to pray to a wrong god, or die and be unable to protect those children from larger dangers?

Also the original question, what is the difference to me, an outside observer?

 

[mmm1]

I would hope that a compassionate god would not hold it against you if you were forced to say things at gunpoint. What if your choice was to pray to a wrong god, or die and be unable to protect those children from larger dangers?

-As a Catholic, I know that God wouldn’t hold it against me. Actually, I firmly believe that the young woman in the picture will eventually be welcomed into heaven. Like me, she might need some time to be healed from spiritual wounds, to make up for the effects of her sins, but God has witnessed every little thing that happened to her . He understands how she got there. I think you are focusing on a god that relishes throwing people in to hell for the littlest things. That doesn’t mean it’s true.

 

[_A]

So… I think she prefered to listen to someone else, and she didn’t know the difference between a Yahweh encounter and a hallucination.

Peace

Since you say that she doesn’t, that suggests that you *do * know the difference between one and another.
Why not say what this difference is? If you are going to quote a commandment, let’s remember the penalty for working on the sabbath (the neighbours stone the offender to death).
Thou shalt not kill?

 

[_A]

-As a Catholic, I know that God wouldn’t hold it against me. Actually, I firmly believe that the young woman in the picture will eventually be welcomed into heaven. Like me, she might need some time to be healed from spiritual wounds, to make up for the effects of her sins, but God has witnessed every little thing that happened to her . He understands how she got there. I think you are focusing on a god that relishes throwing people in to hell for the littlest things. That doesn’t mean it’s true.

If the bible is taken seriously, your god created everything. If anyone ever ends up in hell, he planned it that way - eternal torture for maybe a hundred years of nastiness, tops.

 

[mmm1]

Your Yahweh gets the blame for creating everything. Omnipotent, remember? He can do anything. Remember ‘omniscient’? Means he knows everything. He knew all times and things. When he made Satan, he knew just what he was doing. Your Yahweh is often credited with creating ‘love’, or butterfly’s. Well, the same guy created cancer, smallpox and STI’s.

We’ve beaten smallpox with applied scientific theories.

{There is a really cool website, run by the CDC , which has all sorts of wonderful info. It’s well worth digging around a little. }

–Thanks for the link, I’ve used that sight a number of times. I think the mysteries of pain & suffering are beyond my scope, currently a soccer mom who’s only returned to my faith in earnest a few years ago. I’m just trying to catch up with it, so I’m sure others would discuss this with you better. I would be incomplete, but I do have a feel for the mystery of suffering. I don’t pretend to understand God, but I do believe there is often a value in suffering. Goodness sometimes comes out of it. People are strengthened by it. Inspired by it, often for good. Suffering allows us to develop compassion. Catholics believe in a redemptive power of suffering.

I don’t know if someone who’s more persuasive could convince you that God did not create sin & evil. Why didn’t He just leave out Satan & Hitler, among others? Of course I don’t know.

I think God knew there would be great evil in the world, but great goodness as well. Please don’t ignore the fact that God chose free will for us. Maybe He thought we need to see that goodness overcomes evil. I really stink at “philosophical” things, especially when I’m too tired. Thanks for the interesting discussion, but I should call it a night. I’m frustrated & tired, but appreciate the thoughts…

 

[LtPaint]

Since you say that she doesn’t, that suggests that you *do * know the difference between one and another.
Why not say what this difference is? If you are going to quote a commandment, let’s remember the penalty for working on the sabbath (the neighbours stone the offender to death).
Thou shalt not kill?

I believe it’s “Thou shalt not murder,” which is different from “Thou shalt not kill.”

 

[_A]

–Thanks for the link, I’ve used that sight a number of times.

Already? lol You are welcome! Have a good night.

 

[mmm1]

If the bible is taken seriously, your god created everything. If anyone ever ends up in hell, he planned it that way - eternal torture for maybe a hundred years of nastiness, tops.

We frequently go against God’s plan for us. He’s responsible for free will, we’re responsible for our actions. You seem really stuck on the eternal torture thing. You seem interested in matters of religion, God & revelation. You really might find some of the information on St. Maria Faustina & Divine Mercy interesting. I don’t mean that facetiously. It is interesting from an academic standpoint, & would provide a different perspective. I know it wouldn’t convert you overnight. I sense you’re a good person & don’t need conversion overnight. I’m too tired to make sense anymore, though. (Like I ever was, I know…)

 

[Mr.Bee]

Since you say that she doesn’t, that suggests that you *do * know the difference between one and another.
Why not say what this difference is? If you are going to quote a commandment, let’s remember the penalty for working on the sabbath (the neighbours stone the offender to death).
Thou shalt not kill?

I can’t say that I do or not, no. It seems the difference for me is *different *for somebody else.

The commandments told us what to do or not do, not how to punish those who break them, somebody else wrote those down.

 

[Mr.Bee]

I believe it’s “Thou shalt not murder,” which is different from “Thou shalt not kill.”

I just looked it up, my bible says “…kill.”

Bought the wrong bible again…

 

[Armor_of_God]

You aren’t convinced that there are suicide bombers? Have you heard that some of them got the world trade centre?

What I’m getting at, A, is that you provided that picture as your evidence and expected the viewers to believe it was real because *you *believed it was real. Yet, if I were to post a picture of a statue of the Blessed Virgin weeping tears of blood, I am quite certain that you would immediately doubt it and ask for proof.

 

[_A]

You really might find some of the information on St. Maria Faustina & Divine Mercy interesting. I don’t mean that facetiously. It is interesting from an academic standpoint, & would provide a different perspective.

I quite obviously can’t read every religious test on every religion. Could you summarize here, please?

 

[_A]

I can’t say that I do or not, no. It seems the difference for me is *different *for somebody else.

The commandments told us what to do or not do, not how to punish those who break them, somebody else wrote those down.

I found out where they are written! Here you go -

Ex.31:14 "Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be **put to death**."

Ex.31:15 "Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be **put to death**."

Ex.35:2 "Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be **put to death**."

Note the phrase I bolded.

That is how it was phrased in the bible. It sounds pretty clear to me.
The commandments may not tell how to obey them, but the same authority (if you consider the bible an authority) says *exactly *how to punish those who break them.