I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

 

[AndrewLong]

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

I don’t think anyone is completely sure. We can believe that they are genuine/real/true – that’s what faith is, isn’t it? Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen?

No one has proof. But people do, however, have proof by their words and actions that their faith is real.

 

[water]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

Could you find any event where hundreds of people were hallucinating at the same time?

Thanks!

 

[_A]

I don’t think anyone is completely sure. We can believe that they are genuine/real/true – that’s what faith is, isn’t it? Blessed are those who believe yet have not seen?

No one has proof. But people do, however, have proof by their words and actions that their faith is real.

I think it is all too obvious that faith itself is real.
http://www.wayofthemind.org/images/noreligion.jpg
What I want to know is how do the faithful tell the difference between a real personal experience of Yahweh, and an hallucination.
Are the men who flew planes into these two towers ‘blessed’? They certainly believed (as is evidenced by the price they paid). They likely have ‘not yet seen’.

 

[_A]

Could you find any event where hundreds of people were hallucinating at the same time?

Thanks!

Thank you for asking. Here is one, where a famous monument appeared to vanish, and hundreds of people were convinced.
http://images.cnhi.zope.net/images_sizedimage_089204722/med

 

[water]

Thank you for asking. Here is one, where a famous monument appeared to vanish, and hundreds of people were convinced.
http://images.cnhi.zope.net/images_sizedimage_089204722/med

Although in your example, people are convinced, they knew the magician couldn’t move it – it is just a trick. What I asked for is an event when things happen without human’s interfere and/or manipullation.

 

[TOP]

Maybe I’m hallucinating you. All the texture you have is at the keyboard and mouse. I really don’t believe in you very much in all honesty. Have a nice day my imaginary friend. Tim

 

[Mijoy2]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

I don’t understand the premise of the question. Not everyone who believes in God claims a “personal experiece” with God. I for one, do not.

I weigh the evidence, allow my heart and head to guide me and draw the conclusion that the existance of the God of the Bible is believable. I have a great deal of difficulty believing we are an accident and are without hope.

Possibly I am blind to personal encounters with God. Possibly God has not revealed Himself to me in any manner that can’t be explained through naturalism. You will probably not like my answer but the way I look at it is: either He is or He is not. I prefer to believe He is. Outside a private revelation I have come to grips with the probability I will live my life with a certain measure of doubt. I believe it is more logical to believe, based on the evidence of His revelation, then to not believe.

 

[AndrewLong]

What I want to know is how do the faithful tell the difference between a real personal experience of Yahweh, and an hallucination.
Are the men who flew planes into these two towers ‘blessed’? They certainly believed (as is evidenced by the price they paid). They likely have ‘not yet seen’.

Excellent point.

The dictionary says a hallucination is sensory:

1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.

We really don’t know if they men who flew the planes into the twin towers were “hallucinating” based on the influence of some outside source/substance, or if they just misinterpreted a message that their religion broadcasted (that could be the source of a physical confusion…who knows)

The same can be said for people with “Yahweh experiences” – are their physical senses confused, or are they looking too far into a situation because they don’t really understand what’s going on?

In most cases, my vote is the latter. Not quite a hallucination – more of a misinterpretation.

 

[_A]

Excellent point.

The dictionary says a hallucination is sensory:

1. a sensory experience of something that does not exist outside the mind, caused by various physical and mental disorders, or by reaction to certain toxic substances, and usually manifested as visual or auditory images.

‘Hallucination’ is the closest word for what I wanted, but this dictionary definition doesn’t cover it.
Regular people hallucinate. YOU do, I do, and if you want more evidence, I will ask if you dream, and if the images/smells/tastes/sounds you experience in your dreams are real, or just really convincing at the time. In my experience, dreams are completely convincing at the time. How would I tell the difference between an hallucination (or daydream, if you prefer) and the real experience? How do you tell the difference?
There are many examples of our senses being misled. Since these experiences are all internal, how do we check them for authenticity?

We really don’t know if they men who flew the planes into the twin towers were “hallucinating” based on the influence of some outside source/substance, or if they just misinterpreted a message that their religion broadcasted (that could be the source of a physical confusion…who knows)

We know that they believed. You might say that they believed with ALL they had. They demonstrated a faith seldom matched even by a life of sacrifice. If they were wrong in their belief, how would they know? How would you know if you were wrong?

The same can be said for people with “Yahweh experiences” – are their physical senses confused, or are they looking too far into a situation because they don’t really understand what’s going on?

I think that all who claim to have had these experiences have that important question to answer.

In most cases, my vote is the latter. Not quite a hallucination – more of a misinterpretation.

I think they imagined something. Then something about the experience convinced them not to subject that experience to the cold light of reason.
If there is someone who has a good answer to that original question, perhaps they can offer an alternative.

 

[kenmd]

It’s easy. Test everything against the Scriptures.

A scientist does not discover something and then just leave it at that. No, they go and try to reproduce the results to see if there is an underlying truth involved. In the same way, we as Christians do not just ‘believe’ everything at face value, because God will never lie. The Bible tells us how God has historically interacted with His chosen ones and it admonishes us to test what we see and believe, much like a scientist. If you do not believe in the validity of the Scriptures, well, that is another issue.

 

[_A]

I have a great deal of difficulty believing we are an accident and are without hope.

It is very tough. I have been fearful many times of facing this truth, but my strength has grown through the years. It helps that all the religions offered to me were impossibly self-contradicting.

Possibly I am blind to personal encounters with God.

I thought I was, but it turns out that no-one has them. If they do, they can’t explain the difference between this ‘encounter’, and an hallucination.

You will probably not like my answer but the way I look at it is: either He is or He is not.

I like your answer just fine. It is honest and unreserved.

I prefer to believe He is.

Your preference, I hope you realize, has little to do with the reality.

Outside a private revelation I have come to grips with the probability I will live my life with a certain measure of doubt. I believe it is more logical to believe, based on the evidence of His revelation, then to not believe.

I have not seen any of this ‘evidence’ that everyone speaks of. In fact, I have been told several times that there will be no evidence.
I think all that you have is belief (or perhaps faith).
If I am mistaken and you have more to recommend Yahweh than your personal incredulity in a godless universe, then please offer it.
I would like to ask though, why Yahweh? Why choose him over many other gods?
Allah, for instance has more followers in areas where his beliefs are popular, than catholicism has in it’s popular countries.

 

[_A]

Maybe I’m hallucinating you. All the texture you have is at the keyboard and mouse. I really don’t believe in you very much in all honesty. Have a nice day my imaginary friend. Tim

Thanks!
If you are into solipsism, then you are only reading this because you imagined it. If you want a reason to believe that I am not a figment of your imagination, you could get some independent verification from unbiased sources.
Just a suggestion. You may prefer solipsism.
Have a nice day, too!

 

[_A]

Although in your example, people are convinced, they knew the magician couldn’t move it – it is just a trick. What I asked for is an event when things happen without human’s interfere and/or manipullation.

OK, all the reports of flying saucers have been hallucinations. Alien abductions - same thing.
Why do you ask?

 

[AndrewLong]

‘Hallucination’ is the closest word for what I wanted, but this dictionary definition doesn’t cover it.
Regular people hallucinate. YOU do, I do, and if you want more evidence, I will ask if you dream, and if the images/smells/tastes/sounds you experience in your dreams are real, or just really convincing at the time. In my experience, dreams are completely convincing at the time. How would I tell the difference between an hallucination (or daydream, if you prefer) and the real experience? How do you tell the difference?
There are many examples of our senses being misled. Since these experiences are all internal, how do we check them for authenticity?

Excellent response! You’ve got me at a stop.

Personally, I don’t think anyone can be sure. There are people who still believe in Santa. There are people who still believe in the tooth fairy (I think this example was used already, my apologies for repetition). People still think Elvis is alive for cryin’ out loud There are people who have “seen angels” ect…but none of these have ever been proven. How can anyone be sure?

Most people, IMO, place authenticity with rarity – if someone says that a talking demon chipmunk came down and spoke with them, they are going to personally believe that more than if Santa did the same. Everyone “believes” in Santa.

 

[zerinus]

I noticed that, even though there were over 1000 replies to my previous thread ‘I am an atheist’, there were still some unanswered questions.
I hope everyone will find this thread and continue where we left off.

To get us started, I had been asking a question…
What measures have you, the faithful, taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those ‘personal experiences of Yahweh’?

I think this is a very important question since we all hallucinate, and there is often a strong desire to have a ‘Yahweh experience’.

I will tell you what is wrong with that question. It is indeed possible for someone claiming to have had a personal experience of God to have been deceived (or hallucinating, as you like to put it); and I am sure some of them in fact are. However, you have no way of knowing whether they have been deceived or not. The only thing that you can do is to try to obtain that experience for yourself. If you succeed, and find it sufficiently convincing, then you have obtained your proof; if you don’t, then you remain in the dark, and still do not know if some of those people (at least) might be telling the truth.

Let me try and illustrate my point with an example. Suppose I told you that I have a great uncle in Colorado who is 140 years old, and still going strong! I love to visit him occasionally, and chat with him about old times. You say to me: “What measures have you taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those personal experiences of your great uncle?” My answer to that would be: “I suppose I could be hallucinating—anything is possible—but I don’t think that I am! Your skepticism, though understandable, is not going to destroy the reality of my uncle for me, whom I have known for many years, and with whom I have had many hours of enjoyable personal experience. I am going to continue to live my life based on that reality, regardless of whether you believe in him or not. I am not going to stop visiting him, for example, and continue to enjoy his company, just because you happen to be skeptical about his existence. Whether you choose to believe that he exists or not, is immaterial as far as I am concerned. If you want to believe that I am hallucinating, then so be it. We agree to disagree. We live and let live.”

That is just the kind of situation that I find myself in with regard to your questioning about my belief in God.

zerinus

 

[_A]

It’s easy. Test everything against the Scriptures.

A scientist does not discover something and then just leave it at that. No, they go and try to reproduce the results to see if there is an underlying truth involved. In the same way, we as Christians do not just ‘believe’ everything at face value, because God will never lie. The Bible tells us how God has historically interacted with His chosen ones and it admonishes us to test what we see and believe, much like a scientist. If you do not believe in the validity of the Scriptures, well, that is another issue.

…and yet another issue is, which scriptures, and how do we check their validity?

 

[_A]

Excellent response! You’ve got me at a stop.

Personally, I don’t think anyone can be sure. There are people who still believe in Santa. There are people who still believe in the tooth fairy (I think this example was used already, my apologies for repetition). People still think Elvis is alive for cryin’ out loud There are people who have “seen angels” ect…but none of these have ever been proven. How can anyone be sure?

Most people, IMO, place authenticity with rarity – if someone says that a talking demon chipmunk came down and spoke with them, they are going to personally believe that more than if Santa did the same. Everyone “believes” in Santa.

How do we know that the chipmunk guy wasn’t right? How do we know that Santa is true of false. Someone earlier suggested placing a tooth under a childs pillow and see if a fairy appeared to take it.
My Mom, when she told me about the tooth fairy, said that if I was watching, the tooth fairy would not come.
Now that I think of it, she said the same about Santa…

 

[_A]

I will tell you what is wrong with that question. It is indeed possible for someone claiming to have had a personal experience of God to have been deceived (or hallucinating, as you like to put it); and I am sure some of them in fact are. However, you have no way of knowing whether they have been deceived or not. The only thing that you can do is to try to obtain that experience for yourself. If you succeed, and find it sufficiently convincing, then you have obtained your proof; if you don’t, then you remain in the dark, and still do not know if some of those people (at least) might be telling the truth.
I disagree. If we compare details of everyones supposed hallucination, and find some details that ‘match up’, and that could not have been encouraged (say by bible stories), then I think this would be compelling evidence that there was a little more than simple hallucination going on.
zerinus;3066361:

Let me try and illustrate my point with an example. Suppose I told you that I have a great uncle in Colorado who is 140 years old, and still going strong! I love to visit him occasionally, and chat with him about old times. You say to me: “What measures have you taken to make sure that you are not hallucinating those personal experiences of your great uncle?” My answer to that would be: “I suppose I could be hallucinating—anything is possible—but I don’t think that I am! Your skepticism, though understandable, is not going to destroy the reality of my uncle for me, whom I have known for many years, and with whom I have had many hours of enjoyable personal experience. I am going to continue to live my life based on that reality, regardless of whether you believe in him or not. I am not going to stop visiting him, for example, and continue to enjoy his company, just because you happen to be skeptical about his existence. Whether you choose to believe that he exists or not, is immaterial as far as I am concerned. If you want to believe that I am hallucinating, then so be it. We agree to disagree. We live and let live.”

I think you are forgetting that your Uncle’s existence could be independently verified by unbiased observers.
Religious experiences are not open to this kind of scrutiny, because there is little reality associated with them. It is all personal feelings.

That is just the kind of situation that I find myself in with regard to your questioning about my belief in God.

I am questioning how you discern between a real internal experience (your belief in Yahweh) and an hallucination. You made up a story about a 140 year old relative to muddy the waters, but you have not succeeded. Your ancient relative is quite easy to prove or disprove - by independent observation.
I still would like to know how you tell the difference, when you know full well that your senses are not trustworthy.

 

[kenmd]

Let me try this again. The reality of Christ.
A believer’s faith, in God, or lack thereof, should never be swayed by emotions (in your example, a hallucination). As we are told, we have to walk by faith and NOT by sight.
We have faith because the Bible, as well as secular historians, record the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. This website alone has several tracts from the early Church fathers who attest to the divinity and deity of Christ. For example: If you wanted to know about your Great-grandfather, and you asked your Grandfather who knew him, would you believe your grandfather?

My point is that Christ and his divinity are supported by unbiased observers (secular historians) as well as by those who knew the men whom Christ taught (early fathers and the reality of Christ).
is this getting at your question?