I am an atheist thread 2

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…Of course, you can feel free to give examples if you want, but your personal experience, being completely unverifiable as you know, is likely to be quite useless to me. Something like this happened to me the other day though actually. I told my wife that I felt I had given Aubergines (egg plants) a more than fair trial and decided that I wanted to stick with my original sentiments on them, namely I think they taste horrible. She, being a Doctor and big on the 5+ fruits and vegetables a day bandwagon argued for their inherent goodness, but I held firm! A few minutes later, her Mum called and asked what we wanted her to cook for dinner when we visited, and she specifically asked if I liked Aubergines! I didn’t take this as a sign though. 🙂
I disagree! You haven’t experienced life until you’ve tasted my wife’s eggplant parmesan!

😃

On the other hand, i concur that personal experience, although powerful to the person who personally experiences it, is not as convincing as objective evidence.

👍
 
…“I told him that this ancient ancestor was the God i worshipped.”

But does that ancient ancestor have parents as well, even if he did create the universe?
I suppose you would have to ask him! Logically, it makes sense to me that everything has a cause, except the one who is the cause of everything. Even time must have a beginning, if not also an end.
 
…Sorry man, I don’t see how that explains anything at all. My point was that God had chosen an “imperfect, or downright worthless, channel of communication” that “leaves any message subject to such an incredibly large amount of ways to be changed and misinterpreted, both intentionally and unintentionally” …
No need to apologize, and your point is well taken and one i have considered.
👍

I suppose the reliability of the Old Testament (OT) we have today depends on the commitment and carefulness of those who made the extant ancient copies in existence today. We do not, after all, have the original autographs of the books that comprise the OT.

If the scribes who made the copies were careless, i suppose that in 1,000 years the books of the OT would not resemble the original at all; do you agree?
 
… In regards to the Tyre prediction, here is the last post I made on it in the last thread, which I don’t think you responded to:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3048322&postcount=1067

I’m reasonably sure I was consistent in my argument as well.
Well, from our conversation in the previous discussion thread i’m glad to see that we did come to an agreement: Ezekiel did accurately predict an event that happened only once in the entire documented history of the world!

The writings of Ezekiel are either proof of God’s existence or proof that historians are dead wrong in attributing the military genius of the idea to Alexander the Great. Either God exists, or all the credit for this remarkable military feat is deserved by the insane fellow who claimed that God told him how to defeat the ancient world power.

👍
 
…How about the prophecy that says the earth rests on pillars? (1 Sam. 2:8) Not only wrong about gravity, but also, there are no pillars. Conclusively, completely, 100% wrong.
Talk about remarkable subjective experience, my youngest son and i were discussing this very subject last week! He is a fan of Greek mythology and was talking about the god Atlas holding up the earth. I remarked that the Hindus also believed that the earth was held up by some creature, an elephant (i think). When the religious gurus were questioned as to what held up the elephant, they said it stood on the back of a turtle. They did not have an answer for what the turtle stood on.

I then explained to him that the Bible is the only religious book that got it right:

He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
(Job 26:7)

Regarding 1 Samuel 2, my Bible reads this way:

6 "The LORD brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave and raises up.
7 The LORD sends poverty and wealth;
he humbles and he exalts.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes
and has them inherit a throne of honor.
"For the foundations of the earth are the LORD’s;
upon them he has set the world.
9 He will guard the feet of his saints,
but the wicked will be silenced in darkness.
"It is not by strength that one prevails; 10 those who oppose the LORD will be shattered.

I have two responses: (1) The Bible (both the Old and New Testaments) use the word world to mean the people of the earth. The world is often described as being in rebellion against God. Now, you and i know that a planet does not fight against someone, rather the people on the planet do. The context of the verses before and after verse 8 determine that this is the most likely meaning of the word world in this passage. What Hanna is praying is, in effect, “God, you created the earth and all who live on it; i know you have the power to make me pregnant.”

(2) Let us say, however, that i am wrong. Lets say Hanna really did believe that our planet does not rest on nothing, as Job said. This would not shake my belief, as Hanna never claimed to be one of God’s prophets. Remember, i am not claiming that everything that everyone says in the Bible is true. I’m only making the claim that St. Peter made:

19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Peter 1:19-21)

Hanna did not utter the words, “Thus saith the Lord” so her making some false claim would merely show the truth that she was not a prophet.
 
…“U from Australia?”

No, I’m a New Zealander. Nobody better mention the rugby world cup now!
My lips are sealed! Win or lose, i have to admire the bravery of men who play something like American football with no helmet!

😃
 
@A

Ok, A, I have a hypothetical for you. Let’s take two individuals, one of them is a practicing Catholic, goes to church every Sunday, is on the church vestry, helps raise money for the church, blah, blah, blah. However, away from church tends to be rather selfish, cheats others in small ways, gossips at work, doesn’t challenge his intellect and generally tends to put himself first in most daily situations.

The other individual is an atheist. He feels he has to be intellectually honest on all accounts. His thirst for truth motivates his life and challenges him daily, he reads, he debates, he searches, partly out of an innate intellectual curiosity, partly because he wants meaning, whatever that turns out to be. He lives his life trying to be fair with others, trying not to use others as a means to an end to his own advantage.

Suddenly both men die. Which one is closest to God, (if we assume for argument’s sake that God exists)? Christian theology would say the atheist. Sorry to offend any Christians out there; but that’s what Christian doctrine teaches.

"Not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” will enter; or take the example in the NT where Our Lord tells the story of two brothers, one states he will not follow the commandments, the other one assures Jesus he will. Of course, the reverse takes place when they actually get out in the world. It didn’t matter what they were saying, it was what they did that proved or disproved their faith.

If we allow that Jesus is God, then He is “Truth.” If someone is *genuinely *seeking truth in his life, he cannot be lost! To the extent that you want truth, you are in union with the “Truth”, Himself. (You may have an important Friend, after all, 🙂

Merry Christmas, A!
The problem for the Atheist in this is that Christ Jesus state that if you deny him before man He will deny you before The Father. I see both in the same boat. One is only paying lip service and the other is totally denying though the atheist is being honest it really does not change anything.

Peace in the Lord
 
I, without faith, could pray also. Noone would be able to tell the difference between the effects of my prayer, and the prayers of a faithful, either.
Want to test it? With rigor?
Well, I’m not really into “praying contests”.

Also, there would not really be any common ground if, for example, I prayed for your eternal soul and you prayed for my eternal soul. You don’t believe in a God to pray to, and you don’t believe in prayer. Even if you did believe in God, you don’t believe in a loving God.

(One prayer I like to use is the Divine Mercy novena:
ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/novena.htm
This is the novena passed on to us from St. Faustina, who was mentioned by the poster mmm1.)

Plus, you don’t believe I have a soul. Even if somehow you came to accept that I had a soul, I suspect that you wouldn’t *care about *my soul in the same way I care for your soul.
 
@Socrates4Jesus

“LOL! Maybe you and future U.S. President wantabe Mit
Romney would hit it off?”

shudder!!

“Logically, it makes sense to me that everything has a cause, except the one who is the cause of everything. Even time must have a beginning, if not also an end.”

That does feel right doesn’t it? Makes sense to me as well in a way, but I’m very wary about applying what feels right and intuitive to us to a “time” without time that doesn’t necessarily adhere to the physical laws of our universe.

"We do not, after all, have the original autographs of the books that comprise the OT.

If the scribes who made the copies were careless, i suppose that in 1,000 years the books of the OT would not resemble the original at all; do you agree?"

Well, probably not I suppose but, as you mention, if we don’t HAVE the originals, then it is going to be mighty difficult to make the claim either way, wouldn’t you say?

“Well, from our conversation in the previous discussion thread i’m glad to see that we did come to an agreement: Ezekiel did accurately predict an event that happened only once in the entire documented history of the world!”

Come on now, that’s quite a simplification! I haven’t scanned through all of history for descriptions of this kind of thing happening, but I am willing to admit that the throwing of an entire city into the sea seems like it would be a reasonably rare event, so for that reason I’m happy to go forward with the argument on those grounds 🙂

However, I don’t think we ever came to any agreement regarding the city being thrown into the sea rather than the sea rising up over the city, no agreement about “found”, combined with the uneccesary repetition found in the prophecy instead of specific prophetic information, I could just as easily state here that we agreed that the prophecy was far too vague for the purposes of “valid prophecy”!

Further specific points from the my last post in the last thread on this topic:

“You’ve also still got quite a task ahead of you if you want to demonstrate how Alexander the Great could NOT have heard about this particular prophecy. I mean, not only do you have to account for everybody that he would have spoken to, but also all the people that the people he spoke to had spoken to, etc. (ugly sentence alert!)”

“It certainly may have been a lucky guess as well, as we all know that the books of the bible weren’t the only writings that could have been in there. Perhaps it was chosen out of many potential prophecies simply because it had come true.”

“How about for the next prophecy you come up with something that wasn’t fulfilled by the actions of people, then we can jump right past the “could they have heard of the prophecy beforehand?” arguement. Also, hopefully something with a specific date, preferrably right down to the minute and second (this level of detail should be well within the capabilities of an all knowing God, I hope), but I understand if it is as vague as just the date.”
 
“Talk about remarkable subjective experience, my youngest son and i were discussing this very subject last week! He is a fan of Greek mythology and was talking about the god Atlas holding up the earth. I remarked that the Hindus also believed that the earth was held up by some creature, an elephant (i think). When the religious gurus were questioned as to what held up the elephant, they said it stood on the back of a turtle. They did not have an answer for what the turtle stood on.”

I too love Greek Mythology, and took a few classical papers in university, though I just wanted to hear about the mythology and as the papers got more advanced they seemed to be more about the archaeological techniques, so I concentrated on other things. In regards to the Hindu belief, I seem to recall what might be an urban legend about some old lady answering this question something along the lines of “You can’t fool me, young man, it’s turtles all the way down!”

“He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.”

But of course, the earth isn’t suspended, and space-time isn’t nothing!

“(1) The Bible (both the Old and New Testaments) use the word world to mean the people of the earth.”

That’s fine, but the passage says “pillars of the earth” not “pillars of the [people]” I guess pillars of people would be legs?? 😉 And then puts the people on the earth, which is on top of the pillars.

And your copy highlights another problem, you’ve got YOUR version of the bible there, a perfect communication from a perfect being would require no translation, it would be understandable by everybody, otherwise it is inherently imperfect. If I recall correctly, Job also mentions pillars of the earth a couple of times, so it appears we have an internal contradiction in Job, and both points of view do not reflect reality.

“(2) Let us say, however, that i am wrong. Lets say Hanna really did believe that our planet does not rest on nothing, as Job said. This would not shake my belief, as Hanna never claimed to be one of God’s prophets.”

Then why is this passage even in there? The bible, in the form we have it today, is a reasonably lengthy work in total, sure, but with all this superfluous fluff with taking the trouble of quoting non-prophets making false predictions, there is space in there that could be used for relevant information, or more detail. It seems to rely far too much on vagueness and inclusion in the canon by power of hindsight, rather than foresight. Much is written after the facts as well.

“Hanna did not utter the words, “Thus saith the Lord” so her making some false claim would merely show the truth that she was not a prophet.”

Though if our first satellites did manage to take pictures of these pillars, I bet you wouldn’t be claiming that it was just a lucky guess, would you?

“Remember, i am not claiming that everything that everyone says in the Bible is true.”

I apologise, for some reason I was under the impression that you thought the bible was inerrant.

Merry Christmas S4J, as always I enjoy your thoughts.
 
The problem for the Atheist in this is that Christ Jesus state that if you deny him before man He will deny you before The Father. I see both in the same boat. One is only paying lip service and the other is totally denying though the atheist is being honest it really does not change anything.

Peace in the Lord
I would disagree. I think the point of Christianity is to “be” who you “are”. Words tell us nothing really, our life, is our testament ultimately, and a soul who is thirsting for truth, seaching for it in intellectual honesty is in reality existentially closer to Christ, the Logos, Being Himself.

Just my opinion but I think Jesus was quite assertive about the ironies of who is “really” with him…the "first will be last, the two brothers parable, the centurian (sp) with faith, the samaritan women, the Pharasee speech, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, it goes on and on, so as Our Lord looks at the heart, no so much the tongue…there plenty of evidence for my interpretation.

Merry Christman and peace also!
 
Regarding the seen vs the unseen,

I’ve heard that science is backing away from the big bang theory. Why? Because it points to a beginning for everything. And according to science, something can’t come from nothing. The big bang as you might guess, is causing the science community some problems when in debate. (((((( 🙂 )))))))) Yet they keep putting dates on everything. Puting an age to things and events admits a beginning.

map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101age.html

the law of causality says every finite thing is caused by something other than itself. IOW,
  • the universe had a beginning as we see in the above link. If you don’t like that link, do your own search for the age of the universe.
  • Anything with a beginning i.e. the universe, must have been caused by something else, based on the law of causality.
  • Therefore the universe was caused by something or someone, right? Which do you choose? And I want to know what was it like 1 second before the universe was caused? Science doesn’t like the word creation in this application :rolleyes:
    Another law is that of thermodynamics which states that in a closed, isolated system (the universe) the amount of usable energy is continually decreasing (entropy). If the usable energy, in the universe is decreasing, the universe then is finite and not eternal, raising the same question, who/what started the universe?
Here’s one argument I’m sure you’ve heard many times before.

Intelligent Design
  • All complex systems require a designer.
  • there is great design in the universe.
  • there must be a designer of the universe.
    IMO it takes far more effort to disbelieve, than to believe in God.
To follow up,

Stephen Hawking gave a series of lectures

hawking.org.uk/text/public/bot.html

Depending on which lecture you look at, space, the universe, time etc all had a beginning. They are not eternal. There is no pretense they will last forever. None of them could create themselves. And IMO, there is numerous scripture hidden in these lectures.
 
Could you give us some explicit examples of this, and the teaching of the Catholic Church on choosing hell. I would like to hear some more.

peace
You can also see how the authors of the bible viewed free will by the same passage. Deuteronomy 20:9
 
I would disagree. I think the point of Christianity is to “be” who you “are”. Words tell us nothing really, our life, is our testament ultimately, and a soul who is thirsting for truth, seaching for it in intellectual honesty is in reality existentially closer to Christ, the Logos, Being Himself.

Just my opinion but I think Jesus was quite assertive about the ironies of who is “really” with him…the "first will be last, the two brothers parable, the centurian (sp) with faith, the samaritan women, the Pharasee speech, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, it goes on and on, so as Our Lord looks at the heart, no so much the tongue…there plenty of evidence for my interpretation.

Merry Christman and peace also!
 
I would disagree. I think the point of Christianity is to “be” who you “are”. Words tell us nothing really, our life, is our testament ultimately, and a soul who is thirsting for truth, seaching for it in intellectual honesty is in reality existentially closer to Christ, the Logos, Being Himself.

Just my opinion but I think Jesus was quite assertive about the ironies of who is “really” with him…the "first will be last, the two brothers parable, the centurian (sp) with faith, the samaritan women, the Pharasee speech, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, it goes on and on, so as Our Lord looks at the heart, no so much the tongue…there plenty of evidence for my interpretation.

Merry Christman and peace also!
I agree with all that you said ,but I am was I was not Quoting Jesud on those that were Just paying Lip Service to Him and God, But to the ones that out right deny Him. For those that do not know ( have never heard the word ) but present Him in in there words and dead and truly search for him in their heart thought they may not know it I think will Find that God does know them and wil be granted their reward. But for him that has heard and choose to deny. For that person I pray that there eyes open before they close forever.

Peace in the Lord

And Merry Christmas…

Scott
 
You can also see how the authors of the bible viewed free will by the same passage. Deuteronomy 20:9
Deuteronomy Chapter 20:9
“When the officials have finished speaking to the soldiers, military officers shall be appointed over the army”
 
I agree with all that you said ,but I am was I was not Quoting Jesud on those that were Just paying Lip Service to Him and God, But to the ones that out right deny Him. For those that do not know ( have never heard the word ) but present Him in in there words and dead and truly search for him in their heart thought they may not know it I think will Find that God does know them and wil be granted their reward. But for him that has heard and choose to deny. For that person I pray that there eyes open before they close forever.
I think we’re more or less on the same page.
 
@ontologysue
Oh… my examples of basic language in the animal kingdom were irrelevant?
I’m amused by the fact that you keep pushing the point that animal communication is simply a less complex version of human language! Phooney, there isn’t a scientist alive who argues that. I think the reason Dawkins was quoted in Schroeder’s book is because he is an evolutionist, isnt he? And yet, he sees no evolutionary forerunner to our language in the animal kingdom. Even evolutionists can’t link (through evidence) the development in humans of understanding and self awareness. You show me a scientist alive today who contends human language is just a more advanced form of animal communication. It’s rediculous!

But, if you’re a materialist purist, you probably don’t believe in a self or subject who is conscious, there’s no rationality in reality because it’s incoherent to talk of matter being rational! You probably don’t believe in gravity, electromagnetism, the weak or strong nuclear forces as they are not matter. A true materialist has to accept “randomness” as the only explanation for the complexity, order, and preciseness in the fields of biology, cosmology and physics. Materialism just can’t come to grips with the evidence in molecular biology, quantum physics or cosmology.
your claim that the origins of language are an unponderable problem seems very defeatist to me.
It’s not defeatist, it’s fascinating. I guess I’m not being very clear. It’s not me stating the meta-physical aspect of language. I’m just trying to understand what modern scientific evidence is concluding, namely, that by it’s very nature, the act of comprehending the meaning of a concept, is not physical. Can a material object perceive meaning? They are discovering, through evidence, that there is no lobe or specific neuron etc where the “self” resides, for example. They can map where certain emotions are in the brain but they cannot make physical the “experience” “I” have of sadness, or love, or humor. They can destroy a part of my brain that allows me to feel sadness, but they haven’t destroyed “sadness.” It is the evidence scientists are accumulating through micro biology that is leading them to postulate a meta-physical reality, not my wishful thinking.

I’m simply reacting to what far greater minds than mine are discovering, and the fact that language and consciousness are baffling scientists from a classical physics point of view, only means they are discovering new truths.
“I am a deeply religious nonbeliver. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”
“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.”
“deeply religious nonbeliever”, that sounds like something I might have said about 30 years ago! Well, if you’re a “deeply religious” nonbeliever, I think that means, you’re intellectually honest. You can’t go wrong there.

In terms of a personal God…consider this; I just read an interesting argument; if God exists, He cannot be limited in any way. To be impersonal is a limitation, ie, “subpersonal;” therefore, God must be perfectly “personal.”
 
…“Logically, it makes sense to me that everything has a cause, except the one who is the cause of everything. Even time must have a beginning, if not also an end.”

That does feel right doesn’t it? Makes sense to me as well in a way, but I’m very wary about applying what feels right and intuitive to us to a “time” without time that doesn’t necessarily adhere to the physical laws of our universe.
Phooney:

That of which i am speaking is not an absence of time but something beyond time, or what theologians refer to as eternity. We are getting into the realm of speculation, now. However, even though you or i might not be able to comprehend this, we might be able to apprehend it.

You and i live in four dimensions - height, width, depth and time. Imagine, if you will, creatures living (if this were possible) in three of these dimensions, but without dept. They might be able to theorize about a four dimensional universe, but they would never be able to experience it unless they became three dimensional beings themselves. They could move in time along an X or Y axis, but never along the Z axis, although they might be able to prove mathematically that a Z axis exists in some universe they do not themselves experience.

Now, it is not mere fantasy that there are dimensions beyond the four we experience. Einstein was one of the first to prove mathematically the likelihood of this. Physicists have discovered that there are many more dimensions beyond what we know and experience. I suggest that if there is a God, he, she or it would exist in these dimensions physicists know exist but cannot experience. Eternity, the Bible suggests, is not an absence of time but something beyond time. It is a more real way of experiencing time similar to living in three dimensions is a more real way of experiencing space.

So, when i say time had a beginning, i’m not suggesting that before time there was no time; rather, what i’m implying is that before time there was still eternity, which is a more real way of experiencing time. This also makes sense, if we can believe those who know more about this than you or i could ever know - modern physicists.

C.S. Lewis - who was an extremely bright atheist until he became an even more brilliant Christian - used this metaphor: To God, all of time is like a time line on an open page in a book. He lives outside this time line, looking down on it, as if the time we experience was standing still. At any moment, he can reach out his hand and touch this time line, and alter the events of people’s lives.
 
…“We do not, after all, have the original autographs of the books that comprise the OT. If the scribes who made the copies were careless, i suppose that in 1,000 years the books of the OT would not resemble the original at all; do you agree?”

Well, probably not I suppose but, as you mention, if we don’t HAVE the originals, then it is going to be mighty difficult to make the claim either way, wouldn’t you say?
Phooney:

Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that a copy of a book of the Bible is found today that predates any known copy of that book by a thousand years. Lets say that copy, which is 1,000 years older than the oldest copy we now have, is found by scholars to be exactly the same as the oldest copy we now have. Would you accept this as good evidence that the Jewish scribes did an excellent job of copying the text precisely?
 
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