I am an atheist thread 2

[_A]

Your startements collide. If you don’t know the 1st, how do you propose knowing the second?

If you are claiming that the fact that the universe has an (apparent) beginning is proof of god, it is up to you to offer your reasoning.

 

[_A]

His love is not conditional, but His justice is conditional on our actions and choices.

You just claimed a few posts ago that he would love you, unless…
I took it to mean that if one does not ‘worship’ your gods in just the right way, they will suffer for it. (suffer separation from god, I think is how you put it)

 

[_A]

Omnipotence means that God has the power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not the intrinsically impossible.

God cannot give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it. The reason He cannot do this is because it is irrational nonsense, not because He lacks power.

Thomas Aquinas says, “Nothing which implies contradiction falls under the omnipotence of God.”

All this from “The Problem of Pain,” C. S Lewis; surely you have read it, A.

You’re really taking easy “pot shots,” that aim at popular caricatures of Christianity, not at it’s true theology.

I don’t put much stock into christian apologists. The bible should be sufficient (unless, of course, it was written by a primitive bunch of men instead of the ‘inspired word of god’).
Christianity is almost a caricature of itself.

 

[Mirdath]

With respect to God, how would a person know their doubt is un intentional vs intentional?

Is doubt ever intended? It’s the very nature of the thing that it’s a suspicious reaction to what we’ve been told, not something we go out and do.

Scripture says God wants everyone to know Him.

That’s nice and all, but what God wants it seems sometimes he does not do.

Do you think you’re excluded from this? Do you think God will sandbag you personally, not give you the resources in your life needed to know Him? If that’s what you think, God isn’t the one putting that there.

I’m not especially set upon by demons. We’ve all got the capacity for doubt or skepticism. I simply choose to exercise it judiciously.

IMO, Padre Pio was cutting to the chase. That’s why I like the quote, and that’s why I use it as a signature

Tell me, how many other saints do you know of who doubted God, or went through a ‘dark night of the soul’? The list is long, and begins with Thomas.

Would you agree with Padre Pio that the majority of Mother Theresa’s life was an insult to God?

 

[_A]

Would you agree with Padre Pio that the majority of Mother Theresa’s life was an insult to God?

Another interesting question - if the catholic church decides to make her a saint, would that be an insult to Pio?

 

[Armor_of_God]

You just claimed a few posts ago that he would love you, unless…
I took it to mean that if one does not ‘worship’ your gods in just the right way, they will suffer for it. (suffer separation from god, I think is how you put it)

Whoa, hang on, A. You’ve got me mixed up with someone else.

 

[ontologysue]

I don’t put much stock into christian apologists. The bible should be sufficient (unless, of course, it was written by a primitive bunch of men instead of the ‘inspired word of god’).
Christianity is almost a caricature of itself.

That says alot, A. If you have an interest in dismissing its theology, seems like it might be wise to learn all you can about it, especially from former atheists, like yourself. You just enjoy taking uneducated “pot shots.” That’s an exercise you’re welcome to, but the debate becomes irrelavant, because to put it bluntly, you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re too arrogant to learn.

Actually, Lewis makes a much better argument for atheism than you do because he made it from the facts. Bottom line, “Christianity is not the conclusion of a philosophical debate…it is a catastrophic historical event.” Jesus Christ was either a lunatic, or, what he said he was, God. That’s really the only proverbial ‘elephant in the room,’ here.

As a former Atheist, I’ve been where you are. At this point in my life I can genuinely echo Augustine’s own words, “too late have I love Thee, O Beauty so Ancient, yet so new.”

 

[_A]

Whoa, hang on, A. You’ve got me mixed up with someone else.

Oops, sorry. I plead a very busy thread with several subjects going.

 

[Armor_of_God]

I was mauled as a small child by a website’s quote function and have avoided them ever since, I will try to use it from now on.

Hi Phooney,

I just wanted to thank you for the change in formatting of your posts. Much easier to follow!

 

[Armor_of_God]

Oops, sorry. I plead a very busy thread with several subjects going.

Yes, I imagine you must feel somewhat like a drummer playing a few sets of drums, using his feet as well.

 

[_A]

That says alot, A. If you have an interest in dismissing its theology, seems like it might be wise to learn all you can about it, especially from former atheists, like yourself.

There are just too many religions, with too many texts, to do a proper job of this.
The reason I don’t listen much to apologists is that they are theists themselves, and of course assume the existence of a deity.
And it doesn’t say anything more than it says.

You just enjoy taking uneducated “pot shots.”

This from you who, after introducing the subject of genetics, wrote
"ontologysue:

"laws of stereo…whatever!

Talk about uneducated potshots lol.
I suggest that you try to take out your insulting tone if you want to discuss here. If you simply want to chastise me for not having read the same books you have, say so, and I will make my responses more appropriate.

That’s an exercise you’re welcome to, but the debate becomes irrelavant, because to put it bluntly, you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re too arrogant to learn.

Are you too arrogant to learn about Allah, or Buddha, or Zues, or Isis, or any of the thousands of religions, living and dead, which make claims similar to each other? Are you too arrogant to learn about stereochemistry?

Actually, Lewis makes a much better argument for atheism than you do because he made it from the facts.

My atheism comes from facts, too. I just don’t believe that I need to read some obscure author (like Lewis) before I can understand god.

As a former Atheist, I’ve been where you are. At this point in my life I can genuinely echo Augustine’s own words, “too late have I love Thee, O Beauty so Ancient, yet so new.”

Enjoy your belief, and feel free to try to argue me back into the church. I know that you were doing that, and calling me arrogant only because your fear divine reprisal if you don’t try to bring the message of christianity to everyone.

I can assure you, I have heard and understood the offer.

I would rather keep my liberty and free will, but thanks for offering again.

 

[_A]

Yes, I imagine you must feel somewhat like a drummer playing a few sets of drums, using his feet as well.

Thanks for noticing. Add to that some flaring tempers, and you have a recipe for everyone having a lousy time.
Lets try to keep things happy. I vote that we tickle phooney until ontologysue starts laughing!

 

[whatevergirl]

They certainly do change people. Think of the suicide bomber. Either she was right, and all of christianity is wrong, or she was experiencing an hallucination (or illusion) and it changed her.
But that is exactly my point - if the hallucinations are convincing enough (which some of the common ones are), then people will be convinced.
Thanks, I think if we ask this question in different ways, there is a much better chance of an answer.
Which martyrs? The ones who flew the planes into the world trade centers?
Whose saints? The catholic ones, or the ones from islam?

I wouldn’t liken a hallucination or illusion to a false belief. Illusions are not really ‘beliefs.’ For someone to risk his/her life for his/her faith…it is more a belief system at work, not an illusion. Usually, people won’t convert to change or move to change, based on a fleeting illusion. It takes believing in something, typically for a long time, to put your life on the line for it. (not just religiously speaking)

Hallucinations are also typically not lasting, really, I think a belief system would be more accurate. I believe that if someone kills others ‘in the name of religion,’ that would be a false faith in my estimation, as God specifically tells us…thou shalt not kill. But, this is my belief system…not a hallucination, or illusion.

If we are trying to convince one another of our beliefs…it is actually harder to not believe in something, than it is to believe. It is harder to not believe God exists, with the vast history backing the Bible (hallucinations?), millions of people’s experiences, proven miracles…to chalk it all up to one big illusion. Just look up at the sky on any given night…that is so vast…and space is infinite…even scientists at NASA are realizing that this wasn’t all ‘by chance,’ we do have a Divine Creator behind this. But, if you would like to assert that people who follow God are hallucinating…haha I don’t know if that will be very effective. Belief vs false belief system. Better approach. Nice chatting!

 

[whatevergirl]

Or–maybe we have different definitions of the word hallucination?

I just wanted to add, A, that I noticed throughout your thread you post…‘your god’ when speaking about God, to other posters. The thing is, God does exist…He is *Our God. If I suddenly lose my sight, does the sun fail to exist? No, it exists, I just cannot see it. I liken these discussions to that analogy-- just because you don’t believe right now *(I have great hope!), doesn’t mean that God does not exist. Your choice to not believe is your own…but God doesn’t cease to exist because we don’t believe in Him, or don’t will Him into our lives.

 

[_A]

I wouldn’t liken a hallucination or illusion to a false belief. Illusions are not really ‘beliefs.’ For someone to risk his/her life for his/her faith…it is more a belief system at work, not an illusion. Usually, people won’t convert to change or move to change, based on a fleeting illusion. It takes believing in something, typically for a long time, to put your life on the line for it. (not just religiously speaking)

Hallucinations are also typically not lasting, really, I think a belief system would be more accurate. I believe that if someone kills others ‘in the name of religion,’ that would be a false faith in my estimation, as God specifically tells us…thou shalt not kill. But, this is my belief system…not a hallucination, or illusion.

If we are trying to convince one another of our beliefs…it is actually harder to not believe in something, than it is to believe. It is harder to not believe God exists, with the vast history backing the Bible (hallucinations?), millions of people’s experiences, proven miracles…to chalk it all up to one big illusion. Just look up at the sky on any given night…that is so vast…and space is infinite…even scientists at NASA are realizing that this wasn’t all ‘by chance,’ we do have a Divine Creator behind this. But, if you would like to assert that people who follow God are hallucinating…haha I don’t know if that will be very effective. Belief vs false belief system. Better approach. Nice chatting!

There are several mutually exclusive religions out there. How do you know you have chosen the right one? Is it the dominant religion in the region where you grew up? Is that how you decide which faith is right?

 

[Armor_of_God]

Deuteronomy 20:9 has a loving way to deal with a child who curses a parent.
As dictated by a god. Also, this god is love (because he says so).

A,

“When the officials have finished addressing the troops, then the commanders shall take charge of them.”
(Deut 20:9)

We must have really different Bibles, or I’m missing something…

But I think I know the passage you were getting at.

I’m just puzzled as to why you have a problem with this passage, given your view on partial-birth abortion. And these children did not even curse their parents.

 

[_A]

A,

“When the officials have finished addressing the troops, then the commanders shall take charge of them.”
(Deut 20:9)

We must have really different Bibles, or I’m missing something…

But I think I know the passage you were getting at.

I’m just puzzled as to why you have a problem with this passage, given your view on partial-birth abortion. And these children did not even curse their parents.

Thanks, I did misquote. Glad to see that you know that good old Yahweh thinks it’s fine to kill children for cursing.

The reason that I have the position I do on abortion is because I don’t believe it is right to force a woman to nurture a baby against her will.
I liken it to slavery, which I find abhorrent.
One ignores the rights of the woman when one calls it murder.

 

[ontologysue]

There are just too many religions, with too many texts, to do a proper job of this.
The reason I don’t listen much to apologists is that they are theists themselves, and of course assume the existence of a deity.

Your view of education is ludicrous. If you don’t analyze something, ie any theology from its own perspective, you have no knowledge from which to debate. Hope this is not a commentary on contemporary public education! Secondarily, reading an Oxford Professor who was formerly an Atheist, might be enlightening, you’d think you would at least have intellectual curiosity if you were really after the truth.

This from you who, after introducing the subject of genetics, wrote Talk about uneducated potshots lol.
I suggest that you try to take out your insulting tone if you want to discuss here. If you simply want to chastise me for not having read the same books you have, say so, and I will make my responses more appropriate.

Just having read ANYTHING substantive from a Christian theologian like Augustine or Thomas Aquinas would be helpful. I’m not “chastising” you for not having read the same books, I’m disallusioned that you have no desire to read anything substantive about this subject. It makes no sense.

Are you too arrogant to learn about Allah, or Buddha, or Zues, or Isis, or any of the thousands of religions, living and dead, which make claims similar to each other? Are you too arrogant to learn about stereochemistry?

Actually I majored in Far Eastern Religions. I’ve read quite a bit on Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and other ancient religions.
The comment on “stereochemistry or whatever” was an attempt at humor, a joke. Guess I better start using more icons!

My atheism comes from facts, too. I just don’t believe that I need to read some obscure author (like Lewis) before I can understand god.

Some obscure author? Ok. Your argument against Christian theology does not come from facts, that’s impossible, you haven’t read ANY Christian theologians like the early Fathers, or the Western philosophic tradition.

Enjoy your belief, and feel free to try to argue me back into the church. I know that you were doing that, and calling me arrogant only because your fear divine reprisal if you don’t try to bring the message of christianity to everyone.
I can assure you, I have heard and understood the offer.
I would rather keep my liberty and free will, but thanks for offering again.

As I’ve said on previous posts, “faith” in anything, whether it’s Atheism or Christianity is an existential matter. Your accusations of evangelization on my part, fear of divine reprisal, etc., is a miscalculation. My goal is truth and that enterprise is an integral part of my faith.

If I have seemed insulting, I’m sorry.

 

[_A]

Your view of education is ludicrous.

That’s very nice of you to say. It means a lot to me coming from a stereochemist like yourself.

If you don’t analyze something, ie any theology from its own perspective, you have no knowledge from which to debate.

Are you trying to suggest that I have no knowledge of catholocism?

Hope this is not a commentary on contemporary public education!

Also very nice of you to say, thank you.

Secondarily, reading an Oxford Professor who was formerly an Atheist, might be enlightening, you’d think you would at least have intellectual curiosity if you were really after the truth.

Suggesting that I have no intellectual curiosity because I wont read what you tell me to says more about you than about me.

Just having read ANYTHING substantive from a Christian theologian like Augustine or Thomas Aquinas would be helpful.

If I won’t read those, does that also mean that I lack intellectual curiosity?

I’m not “chastising” you for not having read the same books, I’m disallusioned that you have no desire to read anything substantive about this subject. It makes no sense.

What is it that I have to gain? A set of dogmas which are restrictive and immoral? If there is a god, it is him that will have to answer me, not you.

Some obscure author? Ok. Your argument against Christian theology does not come from facts, that’s impossible, you haven’t read ANY Christian theologians like the early Fathers, or the Western philosophic tradition.

Why do I need to read a bunch of philosophy to have a handle on reality? I am not looking for a personal god to worship.

As I’ve said on previous posts, “faith” in anything, whether it’s Atheism or Christianity is an existential matter.

I don’t need to have faith in Atheism lol. If I ever did doubt, I wouldn’t use ‘faith’ anyway, I would check the facts and use those.

Your accusations of evangelization on my part, fear of divine reprisal, etc., is a miscalculation. My goal is truth and that enterprise is an integral part of my faith.

If I have seemed insulting, I’m sorry.

I’ll admit that it was feeling that way. Your goal is truth, but you accept christian dogma (it seems from here) and that I find difficult to wrap my head around.

 

[Armor_of_God]

There are several mutually exclusive religions out there. How do you know you have chosen the right one? Is it the dominant religion in the region where you grew up? Is that how you decide which faith is right?

A, you have asked this many times in many ways, and I know it has not really been addressed. Perhaps because it is a huge topic, and there were a lot of other discussions flying around. Another thread, perhaps?

For myself, I will say that the following are some of the key characteristics that define Christianity and the Christian God:

~God created us out of love.
~Each of us was created for love.
~We were given free will.
~We choose to do good or evil.
~He cares for each of us individually.
~He provides for us in all our needs.
~He chose to come to earth and become human for us, to show
us Who He really is and give us eternal salvation.
~Salvation came through the Jews (through Jesus).
~During His time on earth, Jesus chose Apostles and taught
them the truths of the Faith.
~Jesus suffered and died for our sins.
~By His suffering and death, he taught us that through suffering
there is redemption and healing.
~Before Jesus died, He established a Church, against which the
gates of Hell would not prevail. He appointed Peter as head of
this Church.
~After Jesus left this earth, He sent His Holy Spirit (the
Comforter) to guide the Church into all Truth, and dwell within
each believer as well.
~He has prepared an eternal home for us with Him, free of every
sorrow and pain.

Yes, by grace I was born into this, but I still had to make it my own and claim the faith for myself. No, it has not been easy, and yes, I still have questions. I am always analyzing and researching when I hear something that goes against my beliefs, or if there is a teaching of the Church I don’t understand.

As for “How do I know it’s the right one?” - I have found that Christianity speaks directly and profoundly to my humanity and my experience of life. It ain’t all pretty, but it is LIFE. “Love, pain, the whole dang thing…”, if I may paraphrase a certain song.

I have found that my Christian Faith has a traceable, concrete history, and the Faith fulfills all crucial aspects of life for me. The more I learn, the more I’m convinced. I just have not had any desire to look into other religions, which is not to say that I am not open to learning about them. But I believe that the Church and all Her sacraments contain what is necessary for fullness of life.

I could liken it to being born in a certain country. You really had no control over which country you were born in. But if you enjoy life there and find it very fulfilling, would you go and try to live in every other country in the world, just to see if your birth country really was the best one to live in?
On the other hand, if you were born into a country where you were constantly dodging bombs and grenades, perhaps you might look elsewhere.