I am an atheist thread 4

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Angel with Cross on Bridge “Ponte Sant Angelo”

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Santa Maria Maggiore

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I was interested to find that they have a museum under this Church, which claims to have arms from Luke and Matthew:

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Hair from the virgin Mary:

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AND a thorn from the real live for true crown of thorns:

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I couldn’t find much information regarding where or when these relics were acquired. Information regarding what tests to verify them have been similarly hard to come across. I find that odd… don’t you?
 
Climbing the stairs up St Peter’s, they get quite an angle on when you start getting near the top of the dome!

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It is a nice view of the city though

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I also climbed the Scala Santa, they have been covered with wooden steps to protect them, but they leave plenty of gaps to show the original marble. According to my guide to Rome, they can’t be verified earlier than the 7th century or something like that, and even so you have to go up them on your knees. It was the only way I could get any decent photos of the marble bits anyway. So you tell me, the blood of Jesus or ancient coffee stain:

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The stairs were pretty plain to tell you the truth, but the artwork all around them on the ceiling and walls was quite nice…

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The Image right at the top of the stairs:

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San Giovanni Laterano. You can’t accuse them of making small, plain buildings.

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Idolatry or not?

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After all this walking around, I was hungry. Some restaurants are more accomodating than others though:

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I have about 200 other photos (including around 20 of the scala santa for Natural Enquirer) if anybody has any requests!
 
phooney said:
I couldn’t find much information regarding where or when these relics were acquired. Information regarding what tests to verify them have been similarly hard to come across. I find that odd… don’t you?
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You know, I haven’t thought much about relics. It seems to me that any object (alleged to be) that old would pretty much have to be accepted on faith. I mean, what kind of test could you possibly perform to prove that the bones came from Mark or Luke, or the hair from Mary? We don’t exactly have DNA samples of them.

I guess we do have data on Jesus’s blood type from a couple of eucharistic miracles. Maybe they could prove/disprove compatability, although I’m not sure what the church’s position is on Mary’s contribution to Jesus’s genome. Kind of a gray area.

Thanks for the pictures. I didn’t expect you to take 20 of the steps! 🙂 Want to PM them to me? If it’s too much trouble, of course don’t bother.

God bless!
 
_A said:
This goes back to what I talked about, though. If, for example, people started nailing themselves to crosses to honour the Catholic god, they might be accused of misunderstanding what was taught.
If such things, however do not result in some kind of formal rejection by the church, they are then in danger of appearing to approve.
Just such a thing is happening in the Phillipines this Easter.
(Caution, the pictures on the site are kind of pornographic) Somehow, the message which reached the people is that they should nail themselves to crosses to celebrate a holiday.

I think there is a problem with the message and how it is being received.
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The Church has discouraged this practice many times…but, alas, those in the Phillipines that do this simply want to continue the practice.
 
phooney,

You are becoming more suspect with every post.

—you head to Rome, the center of Christianity.

—you enjoyed the religious art.

—you made at least one positive comment about church architecture.

—you climbed stairs in a church on your knees.

What’s next?
 
Pax said:
phooney,

You are becoming more suspect with every post.

—you head to Rome, the center of Christianity.

—you enjoyed the religious art.

—you made at least one positive comment about church architecture.

—you climbed stairs in a church on your knees.

What’s next?
Click to expand...
😃 no kidding
 
Pax said:
phooney,

You are becoming more suspect with every post.

—you head to Rome, the center of Christianity.
Click to expand...
At Easter time, no less. Don’t tell me you went to see the Pope in the rain, too?
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
Would you like to explore them? I’ll play atheist. More specifically, for phooney’s sake, I’ll play strict materialist.

Would you like to start from generalities, or specific hypothetical scenarios? If the former, I’ll ask the most general question, “Why should I live a moral life?”

If the latter, I submit the following. You go to an ATM and discover that the previous customer (not around) left his card in the machine. It is saying “Would you like to do another transaction?” Why should I not withdraw a hundred bucks from the cardholder’s account?

God bless!
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darn!!

That’s never happened to me!

The opportunities I have missed!

There goes my EN-TIRE ethical system!!

(solution: the ATM’s I use are inside or next door to their banks. Take the ATM card inside and report it left behind. End of story).
 
1234 said:
darn!!

That’s never happened to me!

The opportunities I have missed!

There goes my EN-TIRE ethical system!!

(solution: the ATM’s I use are inside or next door to their banks. Take the ATM card inside and report it left behind. End of story).
Click to expand...
For me, I have compelling reasons to operate under the assumption that nice guys finish first.
 
1234 said:
darn!!

That’s never happened to me!

The opportunities I have missed!

There goes my EN-TIRE ethical system!!

(solution: the ATM’s I use are inside or next door to their banks. Take the ATM card inside and report it left behind. End of story).
Click to expand...
You seem to have misread my question. I didn’t ask what you would do. I asked why I should not pocket a hundred bucks of the cardholder’s money.

If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine… but kind of telling.

A said:
For me, I have compelling reasons to operate under the assumption that nice guys finish first.
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OK. I (as devil’s advocate here) don’t. Why should I not take the money?
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
You seem to have misread my question. I didn’t ask what you would do. I asked why I should not pocket a hundred bucks of the cardholder’s money.

If you don’t want to engage, that’s fine… but kind of telling.

A said:

OK. I (as devil’s advocate here) don’t. Why should I not take the money?
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Well, as this sort of thing never occurred to me, I’ll have to give it some thought…

(the ATM people *have *given it some thought, though, and after a time of somebody-not-taking-their-card, the PIN times out.)

–Someone might see you. Including the guy who left it there, and I don’t know where you live, but there are a lot of big guys around here who would be very mad.

–But…suppose it’s the middle of the night, or late, or there’s nobody around, at least I don’t think there’s anybody around…AND the card is in the slot AND there’s a flashing sign saying takeit takeit takeit…(meaning the owner left recently AND might still be around OR be an atheist-testing Catholic lurking in the bushes watching what I’ll do because there’s an ‘atheist’ sticker on my car, which there isn’t…)

I’d pull it out, ending the transaction, and leave the card there, or, better, remove the card and return it to the bank the next day.
WOULD IF I were driving through town and wouldn’t stop for a 100 miles, THEN I’d leave the card there, being lazy and not wanting to post it to the bank en route.

Why shouldn’t I STEAL THE MONEY!!! Well, why should I? Do I need the money? NO–If I did, I might, admittedly be tempted. But I don’t.

I am used to creating my own value system and abiding by it. I think about ethical decisions all the time, without benefit of religion, and make my own conclusions. Therefore, when something comes up, I usually know what I would do. Generally, usually, by and large, I don’t steal. It’s against the rules of civilization and society. If I were poor and couldn’t afford a window air conditioner and there was a riot and a store door was torn down and everyone else was looting, I might. However, that situation has never come up.

However, I live with a guardian angel, who is the most scrupulously honest person I have ever known, so my ‘honesty’ has been honed and tested in the fire for many years.

The guardian angel is my spouse, who is an atheist.
 
So, fear of consequences, combined with lack of financial need? That’s what keeps you on the straight and narrow?

That’s fine, I guess. Lots of good people, including many Christians, are motivated primarily by fear. I just kind of expected more after your “give ethics a chance” line. 🤷

Peace.
 
@Natural Enquirer
You know, I haven’t thought much about relics. It seems to me that any object (alleged to be) that old would pretty much have to be accepted on faith. I mean, what kind of test could you possibly perform to prove that the bones came from Mark or Luke, or the hair from Mary? We don’t exactly have DNA samples of them.
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Well, I’m hardly a forensic archaeologist, but there are a couple useful things that could be done that even I can think of. First of all some radio carbon dating would be able to tell us if these particular relics were from the correct time period. DNA testing (let’s assume there is still some viable material to test) would at least let us confirm if some of the apostles had 16 arms or not. I understand that there was a time when relics like these were quite extensively traded.

An uninterupted history of the relic would be nice too. As it stands, I’d say the chances of these relics being accurately described in their labels is pretty negligable.
 
@Pax
phooney,
Click to expand...
You are becoming more suspect with every post.
Click to expand...
—you head to Rome, the center of Christianity.
Click to expand...
—you enjoyed the religious art.
Click to expand...
—you made at least one positive comment about church architecture.
Click to expand...
—you climbed stairs in a church on your knees.
Click to expand...
What’s next?
Click to expand...
This is some classic ‘reading more into the evidence than what is actually present’ which is typical of theistic mindsets! It’s almost like you don’t think that one can learn about religion without believing in it. On the other hand, I prefer to think you were just joking 🙂
 
@Armor of God
At Easter time, no less. Don’t tell me you went to see the Pope in the rain, too?
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Nah, I wasn’t sure what time he was doing his thing. Perhaps I could have got him to see some atheistic sense? 🙂
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
So, fear of consequences, combined with lack of financial need? That’s what keeps you on the straight and narrow?

That’s fine, I guess. Lots of good people, including many Christians, are motivated primarily by fear. I just kind of expected more after your “give ethics a chance” line. 🤷

Peace.
Click to expand...
coughevolutionarymoralitycough
 
NaturalEnquirer said:
So, fear of consequences, combined with lack of financial need? That’s what keeps you on the straight and narrow?

That’s fine, I guess. Lots of good people, including many Christians, are motivated primarily by fear. I just kind of expected more after your “give ethics a chance” line. 🤷

Peace.
Click to expand...
I think that it’s very unrealistic for anyone to allege that they would never commit a crime of any sort, ever, for any reason. Many crimes were committed in WWII on all sides for good and bad reasons.

Catholics and believers have committed many crimes, thinking that they were justified and/or going to heaven, and a fear of hell did not seem to deter them. I am not saying they have committed more crimes than non-believers, just that their religion did appear to deter them.

My answer to the ATM question is that I wouldn’t abuse another person’s card because I wouldn’t do it. Period. But it’s sort of an off-the mark-example for me because I don’t need money.

But would I try to bribe someone to move my child up a transplant list–well, maybe. Would a believer, who had the money? Maybe. Would a fear of a god or hell deter such an attempt? Probably not.

Would I donate a kidney anonymously, as some have done, or to a stranger? No. Why? Because I have family members to whom I have a primary obligation, created by birth or law, who might need one some day.

Ethics is complicated. I don’t think that belief in a deity or a fear of hell make it any easier.
 
phooney said:
coughevolutionarymoralitycough
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But that doesn’t answer the question at all. If my conscience is just a quirk of history, I have no reason to follow it. Higher probability of reproductive success? I’ve already got kids. So why should I continue to obey the conscience that was instilled by evolution?
 
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