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Jonathan82
Guest
My mother always told me as a kid God doesn’t help those who don’t try to help themselves. Doesn’t mean you stop asking him for help it just means you put your part as well.
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phooney
Guest
Those that help themselves… help themselves.
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Jonathan82
Guest
When you can no longer help yourself and you’ve tried so many times God steps in. Depending if you’ve been faithful, or you are being given another chance.Those that help themselves… help themselves.
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phooney
Guest
Except when he doesn’t step in, and then God works in mysterious ways, right?
I think this is called positive confirmation bias.
I think this is called positive confirmation bias.
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Jonathan82
Guest
God will never give you something you cant handle, even if some people might choose to end their own life prematurely.Except when he doesn’t step in, and then God works in mysterious ways, right?
I think this is called positive confirmation bias.
Do not get me wrong believing in God doesn’t mean I don’t seek knowledge in helping people in other ways, that don’t have to do with religion, but I always have it present in my mind that God is all around us.
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phooney
Guest
I think you missed the point.
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Jonathan82
Guest
No I know I just thought Id throw that in. You were saying about the whole thing about God is mysterious and he does mysterious things. I couldn’t agree more with those people that say that after all our minds cannot comprehend completely the way he operates, only the things we learned at church and from personal experience.I think you missed the point.
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phooney
Guest
Seeing as even if God was real we couldn’t comprehend the way he works, it would be prudent to live our lives as if we couldn’t count on his help.
Hence, those that help themselves… help themselves.
Hence, those that help themselves… help themselves.
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Jonathan82
Guest
Again if he is real and his word is true we are better off following him, than burning in hell, because decided to do anything we wanted, I’m going to extremes of course. But the Faith in him only teaches you to do good things, and to avoid sin which as far as I know is bad things in this world.Seeing as even if God was real we couldn’t comprehend the way he works, it would be prudent to live our lives as if we couldn’t count on his help.
Hence, those that help themselves… help themselves.
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Jonathan82
Guest
Because remember even though we don’t fully comprehend him he still gave as rules to live by.
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phooney
Guest
Not that we can comprehend the way he works, by your own admission. So we don’t know what he would really want of us.
Maybe by following the church, you’re doing the worst thing possible, in God’s eyes.
What you seem to be presenting is a vague form of pascal’s wager, the last resort of the desperately lacking in evidence.
Maybe by following the church, you’re doing the worst thing possible, in God’s eyes.
What you seem to be presenting is a vague form of pascal’s wager, the last resort of the desperately lacking in evidence.
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Jonathan82
Guest
If I follow the church because my intentions are to be closer to God, and he doesn’t want me to follow the church I think we would be given a strong message, kinda like the strong message sent with Jesus Dying on the Cross.Not that we can comprehend the way he works, by your own admission. So we don’t know what he would really want of us.
Maybe by following the church, you’re doing the worst thing possible, in God’s eyes.
What you seem to be presenting is a vague form of pascal’s wager, the last resort of the desperately lacking in evidence.
You see Historically what you have said has happened already with Jesus.
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love4mary
Guest
If I jumped to conclusions phooney about some of your statements regarding my son, I apologize. And as for there being plenty of time, I Strongly disagree. My father was not even out of his teens when he died in a car accident, plus we read daily of children who are horribly murdered, so NO,there is never plenty of time.
My level of knowledge does not even come close to most here in the forum, I can only speak for myself concerning what was logical for me in my conversion.
Big Bang: Where did the gas come from
Fusion of dust forming planets: Where did the dust come from
Life started from a single cell: Incredible diversity of life
Organization: The complex way higher life forms are put together
and function
These questions may not have had an impact on you, but to me,they were HUGE. I could not answer them, in fact, I have never read anyone who can. It was when I started to think about the implications of these questions that God opened my eyes to Him.
As I stated above, I am far less educated then most on this forum, but to my simple mind, God truly exists and proves it daily with a beautiful Sunrise/set,wild flowers in the meadows and my majestic Tennessee mountains
I will continue to pray (and not badger my son) for his re-conversion of heart, I will continue to keep open the lines of communication with him and pray that by living my Catholic Faith with a joyful heart, he will at least be curious enough to ask WHY!
My level of knowledge does not even come close to most here in the forum, I can only speak for myself concerning what was logical for me in my conversion.
Big Bang: Where did the gas come from
Fusion of dust forming planets: Where did the dust come from
Life started from a single cell: Incredible diversity of life
Organization: The complex way higher life forms are put together
and function
These questions may not have had an impact on you, but to me,they were HUGE. I could not answer them, in fact, I have never read anyone who can. It was when I started to think about the implications of these questions that God opened my eyes to Him.
As I stated above, I am far less educated then most on this forum, but to my simple mind, God truly exists and proves it daily with a beautiful Sunrise/set,wild flowers in the meadows and my majestic Tennessee mountains
I will continue to pray (and not badger my son) for his re-conversion of heart, I will continue to keep open the lines of communication with him and pray that by living my Catholic Faith with a joyful heart, he will at least be curious enough to ask WHY!
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justinthemartyr
Guest
where does love come from? how can one choose to love? animals cannot choose to love as humans can.The best I can put into words is when you put another persons needs ahead of your own.
I think that seeking worship is **not **loving, by the way.
what do you mean by “seeking worship”?
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NaturalEnquirer
Guest
This is a little disingenuous, phooney. Just because we can’t comprehend God in His totality, doesn’t mean we have to throw up our hands.Not that we can comprehend the way he works, by your own admission. So we don’t know what he would really want of us.
Maybe by following the church, you’re doing the worst thing possible, in God’s eyes.
What you seem to be presenting is a vague form of pascal’s wager, the last resort of the desperately lacking in evidence.
Do we really understand God’s trinitarian nature? No. Do we understand when he says “Thou shalt not murder”? Yes. He has revealed certain things to us, and we can act on those things, even though our understanding is incomplete.
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lkddav
Guest
Well said !!Seeing as even if God was real we couldn’t comprehend the way he works, it would be prudent to live our lives as if we couldn’t count on his help.
Hence, those that help themselves… help themselves.
les
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
You might be right about that, A. I might have been presumptuous, but the boy’s mother, who knows him better than you or i, agrees with me.Welcome back, S4J. I wanted to comment that I think it is presumptouos of you to say that this stranger loves sin more than god. You made this decision based on the presumptions you made from a few words written by someone who doesn’t understand his position (though a Mother is closer to understanding than most).
I would suggest to the woman that she remember that an atheist might be pushed away by constant attempts at conversion.
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1234
Guest
This was my thought also. Why don’t you give him access to this thread?(excerpt)
Perhaps you have some questions you’d like to ask? Perhaps you could even allow your son to read this thread (and the others) to see how his Mum’s arguments fare on people whom she has no control over and on whom emotions are dismissed as irrelevant, which they are when you are trying to weight things with argumentative value.
(emphasis mine)
I agree with S4J and A, this is something I think you are going to have to try to remain neutral on with your son, unless you just want him to rebel more. There’s no hurry for him to get back into church, there’s plenty of time for honest enquiry.
The challenge by Christians vs. the atheists/agnostics/deists/UUs/whatever on this thread will put him on his mettle; he’ll be forced to think, read, and write, maybe even grammatically! He’ll have to sort out the reasons behind his decisions and possibly reach a conclusion that you favor–but have better reasons for doing it.
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munan
Guest
God put it there.Big Bang: Where did the gas come from
God put it there.Fusion of dust forming planets: Where did the dust come from
Adam came from a whisper. Eve from clay and a rib.Life started from a single cell: Incredible diversity of life
God put it there.
Most do not realize that evolution is not the answer to how. Merely the answer to why.
Is it so hard to believe that the Divine breathed life into the universe and allowed it to flourish as it was able?
Isn’t that what life is?
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munan
Guest
Thank you very much.Welcome to the thread, Munan!
I hope I have knowledge to offer.
You will find that I am quite interested in logical discussions about a great many things.
After all, I am a seeker of knowledge, and without the ability or desire to question one’s own beliefs, one can never gain that knowledge.
I also go all “Buddhist” as my daughter says from time to time.
I have a very accepting nature, but I love to force people into corners and have them explain their beliefs.
Not to question them, but to understand them.
I appreciate your welcome. Thank you.
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