I am an atheist thread 4

[Jonathan82]

So you choose which parts of the bible you will treat as metaphor, and I will choose which parts I will treat as metaphor.
Sounds fair, since the bible doesn’t say which parts are -]fiction /-]metaphor.

Oh very nice I like how you cross out fiction, hmm are you 10 years old? learn to show respect for peoples beliefs. You must really have nothing better to do because you are showing me right here that you have a personal hate for our religion.

 

[Jonathan82]

It seems that many of you are not even willing to consider the possibility that he might be right about your god being an invention.

I bet he can tell.

It seems you haven’t realized we are Catholic and are in a Catholic forum. And by the way I’m sure we’ve all considered the possibility but we chose to believe. I’m sorry you don’t see things the same way.

 

[_A]

Why don’t you read the earlier posts before posting. I’m tired of retyping.

I have been reading along all the time. When you said that your god could not be comprehended, it made more sense than the whole of Christianity.

 

[_A]

Oh very nice I like how you cross out fiction, hmm are you 10 years old?

Perhaps - what of it?

learn to show respect for peoples beliefs.

I am here for honest discussion, not to kowtow to your beliefs. If that is what you wanted, couldn’t you just go to church?

You must really have nothing better to do because you are showing me right here that you have a personal hate for our religion.

What you are doing here looks more like a personal attack than addressing my points.
Which makes an interesting point itself

 

[_A]

It seems you haven’t realized we are Catholic and are in a Catholic forum. And by the way I’m sure we’ve all considered the possibility but we chose to believe. I’m sorry you don’t see things the same way.

What I meant was that if his Mom doesn’t even consider that his opinion might be correct, he can probably tell.

 

[1234]

Thank you very much.
I hope I have knowledge to offer.
You will find that I am quite interested in logical discussions about a great many things.
After all, I am a seeker of knowledge, and without the ability or desire to question one’s own beliefs, one can never gain that knowledge.

I also go all “Buddhist” as my daughter says from time to time.
I have a very accepting nature, but I love to force people into corners and have them explain their beliefs.
Not to question them, but to understand them.

I appreciate your welcome. Thank you.

Welcome, Munan,

You sound like a nice, reasonable person who likes debate.

But I suggest that if this is what you seek that you avoid posting on forums.

If you are a seeker of knowledge, you’re not going to find it here.

You will learn that posting on forums is a profound waste of time.

You won’t convince them and they won’t convince you.

There are better ways to spend your time.

 

[Jofantioch]

Be not afraid!

I was baptized Catholic but raised Atheist. I believe that Atheism is the closest thing to true Christianity that there is, let me explain.

1. Atheists are passionate about their sense of right and wrong and are willing to do what is right or wrong because of principle, not because of support from a group. This is necessary to true Christian faith. When you are persecuted, you are alone with Jesus and need that strength of conviction.
2. Atheists don’t adopt a party line, they come up with a sense of right and wrong based on empathy. Empathy is a very Christian impulse. The more one can use this sort of terminology with an atheist rather than religious jargon, the more you both will see similarities and not differences.
3. Love, acceptance, and living their principles is the foundation of an Atheist life. God doesn’t want luke-warm Catholics. It is better for a person to reject Him all together. He will pull them gently back to Him through the love embodied in the family of his church. Have faith. Let go and let God do the work. Only the Holy Spirit can change someone’s heart, not a person. Atheists’ hearts are open and searching. So long as that is the case, your child or your self is open to Christ’s gentle call. Let it go and let God do His work.
4. Each person needs community and family, this is a need for our brains and our bodies. It is natural for a nurtured and loved Atheist to seek communion with the faithful. Be not afraid.

 

[_A]

Be not afraid!

I was baptized Catholic but raised Atheist. I believe that Atheism is the closest thing to true Christianity that there is, let me explain.

1. Atheists are passionate about their sense of right and wrong and are willing to do what is right or wrong because of principle, not because of support from a group. This is necessary to true Christian faith. When you are persecuted, you are alone with Jesus and need that strength of conviction.
2. Atheists don’t adopt a party line, they come up with a sense of right and wrong based on empathy. Empathy is a very Christian impulse. The more one can use this sort of terminology with an atheist rather than religious jargon, the more you both will see similarities and not differences.
3. Love, acceptance, and living their principles is the foundation of an Atheist life. God doesn’t want luke-warm Catholics. It is better for a person to reject Him all together. He will pull them gently back to Him through the love embodied in the family of his church. Have faith. Let go and let God do the work. Only the Holy Spirit can change someone’s heart, not a person. Atheists’ hearts are open and searching. So long as that is the case, your child or your self is open to Christ’s gentle call. Let it go and let God do His work.
4. Each person needs community and family, this is a need for our brains and our bodies. It is natural for a nurtured and loved Atheist to seek communion with the faithful. Be not afraid.

Welcome to the thread, Jofantioch! Glad to have your slightly different take on things.

 

[Jonathan82]

Perhaps - what of it?I am here for honest discussion, not to kowtow to your beliefs. If that is what you wanted, couldn’t you just go to church?What you are doing here looks more like a personal attack than addressing my points.
Which makes an interesting point itself

But your not 10 your a grown man with kids, I saw your pics. As far as your trying to to say I have a personal attack on you well, I think you attacked my Beliefs first. And when I asked you if you were reading earlier posts, its because I had answered that same exact question posted by Phooney. And also 123 guy is right we are not gonna get anywhere on this thread because all 4 of the Atheist threads have been about the same thing just worded differently; kinda like an electronic job application, they last for an hour but they are the same questions.

Atheists not believe in a God that is all, so what are you arguing about? You (speaking in general) might see as believers as hard headed because we don’t look at your theory’s the same way. You ask but how can you tell the difference between a fictional story and a true one, my answer is, in your way of thought (talking about Atheists) you will never see the difference unless you have indisputable evidence. With that said, that is the reason we will always disagree.

 

[Jonathan82]

You see we don’t have indisputable evidence about Christ and God, but we have faith and personal experiences (it is something that we feel inside). There is nothing wrong with having faith in God and praying to him, and after all he is a good role model and stands for justice and love.

Just like there is nothing wrong with being an Atheist, because I agree with the new guy when he says you need to be open minded and eventually you will get called by the lord. Whether you accept is up to you because I wont convince you.

 

[_A]

But your not 10 your a grown man with kids, I saw your pics.

What I was getting at is that my age makes no difference to the points I raised. If you don’t like having the bible referred to as fiction, then don’t read. I think it IS fiction, and if you say it isn’t, it is up to you do back up what you say, or look kind of uncritical.

As far as your trying to to say I have a personal attack on you well, I think you attacked my Beliefs first.

Then go ahead and attack mine, but a personal attack on my person just makes it seem that your arguments have nothing else to offer.

And when I asked you if you were reading earlier posts, its because I had answered that same exact question posted by Phooney.

I think he made the same point - why should we believe you about what is fiction and what is not? Why not rely on reasoning skills?

And also 123 guy is right we are not gonna get anywhere on this thread because all 4 of the Atheist threads have been about the same thing just worded differently; kinda like an electronic job application, they last for an hour but they are the same questions.

They are important questions. People bomb abortion clinics and fly planes into buildings over these irrational beliefs…

You ask but how can you tell the difference between a fictional story and a true one, my answer is, in your way of thought (talking about Atheists) you will never see the difference simply because you require indisputable evidence. With that said, that is the reason we will always disagree.

It is not indisputable evidence I require for everything, but if you make a huge claim, you will need huge evidence to back it.
I have not seen enough evidence to make me believe.
By the way, I have had some very long-term friendships with people who completely disagree with me on this, so I would suggest that the conversation may be worthwhile *because * of our differences.

 

[_A]

You see we don’t have indisputable evidence about Christ and God, but we have faith and personal experiences (it is something that we feel inside). There is nothing wrong with having faith in God and praying to him, and after all he is a good role model and stands for justice and love.

Read the bible. He stands for racism, hate and spite.

 

[Jonathan82]

What I was getting at is that my age makes no difference to the points I raised. If you don’t like having the bible referred to as fiction, then don’t read.

No you misunderstand, its not what you say is how you say it and the same thing can be applied to writing.

I think it IS fiction, and if you say it isn’t, it is up to you do back up what you say, or look kind of uncritical.Then go ahead and attack mine, but a personal attack on my person just makes it seem that your arguments have nothing else to offer.

Maybe its hard for you to understand. Attacking my Beliefs is attacking me and every Catholic, therefore that is personal.

I think he made the same point - why should we believe you about what is fiction and what is not? Why not rely on reasoning skills?

Well if you think he made the same point then why do you ask the same question? Why don’t you work with my answer and ask a better question or emphasize a part of his?

They are important questions. People bomb abortion clinics and fly planes into buildings over these irrational beliefs…It is not indisputable evidence I require for everything, but if you make a huge claim, you will need huge evidence to back it.

First of all I get your point, but we are not Muslims here. and you forgot to mention the crusades and pedophile priests etc… these are fanatical people who are insane. Jesus doesn’t teach those things. Its people that use religion as an excuse for their evil actions.

I have not seen enough evidence to make me believe.

Maybe one day who knows.

By the way, I have had some very long-term friendships with people who completely disagree with me on this, so I would suggest that the conversation may be worthwhile *because * of our differences.

I wonder out of curiosity what exactly it is you talk about. Because personally I know I cannot prove to you what you want, therefore it is frustrating to explain something that I already know you will personally ask for more evidence of.

 

[Jonathan82]

Read the bible. He stands for racism, hate and spite.

I believe in the ten commandments from the OT and I don’t take the OT literally at all. What I do believe in Is the New Testament. Jesus didn’t believe in slaves.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Read the bible. He stands for racism, hate and spite.

Care to back that up?

Eghghghghgh… actually, never mind. It’s just not worth it.

 

[phooney]

@munan

“I suppose which way you take my statement can be taken a number of ways.
If Creation is the Big Bang, then no. That’s how. Evolution is why we’re here now, not at all. It’s all true, depending on your point of view.”

Ah, I see what you mean now. For me they would seem to be part of the same ‘how’

“I happen to believe we were created, but I also happen to believe that the charming story in the Bible doesn’t even scratch the surface of what happened.
What did happen? I fear my mind, as vast as it is, is too small to answer that.”

Well, I think I agree with you, though I think the word “created” is too charged for me to want to use it in this context. We know that the universe as we know it isn’t eternal, but the best we have are hypotheses as to what the cause of it might have been. I’m really looking forward to whatever evidence happens to be found, like when the large hadron collider is finished… damn delays!

“By “Divine”, I was merely speaking in a language our Catholic friend could relate to. My term is not “The Divine” but rather “The powers that be.””

And mine is, “I don’t know, how about we try to find out, and let’s hold off belief until we have some evidence.”

“I don’t see myself forced into corners actually. I see myself being placed in situations to further my own enlightenment. As I’ve said, if you’re not willing to question your own beliefs, then how do you know what you believe?
I enjoy discussions of this nature because they allow me to grow.”

I think this is very well said, and I absolutely agree.

“If I’m going to spend the rest of time suffering for that, then I intend to enjoy my time here. Of course, it’s pretty obvious I don’t believe that, huh?”

I agree! Let’s do all the good we can and then I’ll see you in hell, we can talk the universe over with Einstein.

 

[phooney]

@love4mary

“phooney,I have been away from the forum for a short time and missed your question about my apparent confusion.”

Don’t worry! I’m hardly going to begrudge your 8 and a half hour delay in responding to my post on an international online forum when we all have real life to think about as well, I thought you were pretty quick to tell you the truth.

“I understand the Theory of the Big Band and in and of itself, see no major problem with it. I, unlike you though, believe that God created the gases and the dust and adding the Spark that set it all in motion.”

Sorry, I may have misunderstood your level of confusion. The big bang theory in and of itself doesn’t have anything to say about where all the energy (and hence matter) came from, as far as I know, so there’s no reason to think it has anything to say about whether a god was required to set it in motion or not. Same thing in regards to the theory of evolution, in and of itself it has nothing to say about where the first self replicating molecules came from. The problem is, you have clearly indicated here that you have put god into those gaps in knowledge because “how else could it all have happened!”. You haven’t really done all you could to find evidence, and you seem to be unable to go on while the answer to some of these big questions is “I don’t know”. Unfortunately, “I don’t know” is as far as the evidence can take us at the moment. Unless I’m missing an interruption of the regular broadcast on TV at the moment with live breaking news of the most amazing discovery in the history of mankind, but what are the odds?

I’m still willing to listen to evidence that people here think they have though. I happen to think that belief without evidence (faith, as far as I can understand it) is almost always quite irrational, dangerous and divisive. On almost every aspect of life, theists and atheists would agree on this, but when it comes to god, things are apparently different. This is when some people start asking irrelevant questions like “prove love”, “prove wind” “prove the revolutionary war” or other ridiculous things. These things are irrelevant, if you think they are unjustified beliefs than perhaps they are worth their own thread, perhaps on a different forum.

There are no doubt many here that don’t care about having evidence for their belief, and I think it is true that there is nothing that can be presented that will ever change their opinion. However, there are also people active here who think their religion has a solid base of evidence. It is these people that I think the most constructive discussions can be had with. Regardless, in these kind of things, it is almost never especially belief-altering for those taking part, but our discussion can be useful for observers. If anybody can be bothered to look at such long threads that is!

No matter which “side” is right, if we can establish the beliefs or lack of such that evidence supports, then I think we are doing ourselves a great service.

These are things I hope to understand and take away with me when I am eventually finished with posting here.

See? An Atheist can have hopes too

 

[phooney]

@1234

“But I suggest that if this is what you seek that you avoid posting on forums.
If you are a seeker of knowledge, you’re not going to find it here.
You will learn that posting on forums is a profound waste of time.
You won’t convince them and they won’t convince you.
There are better ways to spend your time.”

Oh, I wouldn’t be so down on it I’ve had a pretty good time so far. It has been somewhat time consuming sometimes, but has given me some food for thought and some recommended reading.

I agree, I likely won’t convince anybody here, and they are unlikely to convince me, but these kind of things do tend to be more for the observers, don’t they?

 

[phooney]

@Jofantioch

“Be not afraid!”

Welcome to the thread! I’ll try to stop my hands from shaking in fear long enough to get a few posts out

 

[East_and_West]

The best I can put into words is when you put another persons needs ahead of your own.
I think that seeking worship is **not **loving, by the way.

What if it is for our own good that God wants us to worship him? What if worshiping God in the fullest sense of the word is what is best for our spiritual/psychological well being? Or even more so, our eternal well being? Then God’s seeking our worship is an act of love.