I am an atheist thread 4

[Armor_of_God]

This here is the crux of the matter (like the pun?). You can’t ‘respect their belief’ while acting in direct opposition to those beliefs.
I couldn’t either.

There is more than one definition of “respect”. When I talk about respect, I do not mean that I hold their beliefs in high esteem and on equal footing with core Christian beliefs. Rather, to me, respect means that I normally don’t interfere with their right to practice their religion. It means that I acknowledge and try to understand that, to them, their beliefs are true and logical and mine are a crock. Respect means I don’t ridicule them or their children. In the blood transfusion case, my approach would be: “I understand that these are your beliefs, but there is a life at stake here, and my conscience compels me to take action to save the child.”

There is a point where this major kind of conflict, and many other analogous minor conflicts happens between belief systems. I think one of them is that you think I have wasted my life by not taking notice of your god and all the things that matter most.

I don’t actually think that – you must be mistaking me for someone else. I would say you have done some positive things in your life, helping other people. Now, if you were a cokehead and drug dealer…

I think you have wasted your life by not taking notice that there are no gods, no excuses and this precious life that you have matters most.
They are both pretty harsh to be on the receiving end of.

I don’t find it too harsh. I like to hear what people have to say. I think all believers have at one point or other, if not many times over, considered this alternative. I have pondered it often myself. I am fairly confident in what I believe to be true.

These kinds of conflicts make it tough to communicate, due in part to elevated tempers.
Let’s work to make communication easier despite the disrespectful nature of our disagreements.

The trouble is, communication breaks down when there is no respect. Without respect, we are just shooting the breeze.

Yes. Apparantly knows exactly what we are like…you might say he expected us to be this way. Given that, do you think it is wierd at all that he created a hell to torture some of his creations?

He didn’t create it for torture – Hell was for Satan and his angels, after they freely rebelled. They chose separation.

Is it weird that he told everyone about it?

No, I don’t think so. He doesn’t want us to go there. He wants us to stay the heck away.

Usually I would be, yes. I don’t like suffering.

I noticed. It seems as if you think you shouldn’t have to ever suffer.

Are you strongly in favour of someone suffering for you?

No, but I am certainly humbled when someone does.

Are you strongly opposed to suffering out of love for someone else?

I don’t really need to. If the story in the bible is true, he had a plan. This was part of this plan. He is all-knowing. He knew just how it would be.

And He did it anyway. Out of love.

Oh, and if he could think that his god had forsaken him, he must have a god. Why would you worship a lesser god?

His divinity is equal to God the Father. He humbled Himself to share in our humanity.

Yes, but Christian belief is impossible to resolve with reality. I choose reality.

Hey, I choose reality too. What a coincidence!

Every time you repeat something, it makes another copy in your brain.
Every time you repeat something, it makes another copy in your brain.Every time you repeat something, it makes another copy in your brain.

However, you seem to be an exception to this, my good man.

 

[Pax]

Do you know how many I have placed on my ‘ignore’ list? I’ll give you a hint - I don’t know how.
I have considered it a couple of times, but I am not here to listen to opinions that agree with me, as you might have gathered.
Do everyone a favour, don’t put anyone on your ignore list. I think it will improve the quality of discourse.

You’re a little slow on this one. I haven’t placed anyone on my ignore list either. Read the post over again and notice the icon. This was designed for purposes of humor only. No offense was intended nor was I serious about the ignore list.

The whole book can be interpreted as fiction (or allegory, if you prefer). I think that is the way it should be read - as a story.

You are exposing a predisposition. Serious scholarly study on your part might alter this predisposition.

If your god created the universe, what could be a better path to knowing him? The furious reading of one book, or a firm, reasonable study of the universe around us?
It is wrong because science deals with reality, and religious ‘truths’ do not have an effect on reality.

No one is denying that the universe can tell us something about the creator. I would encourage one to look at the universe as part of the evidence. You have demonstrated that you are unwilling to do this. Your perception is that it is not evidence of the existence of a creator but that it is merely evidence of its own existence.

Science deals with reality only in so far as the tools of science allow. Science frequently fails to deal with reality because of the limits of science. Simply pick any scientific topic of importance and you will find competing ideas to explain it. Frequently, the conventional wisdom of science is turned upside down with some new discovery. The new discovery often fails to prove any new theory or competing idea, but it merely blows away a conventional idea that supposedly explains something.

I believe that you think that science is the only tool for explaining anything. Moreover, you believe that as science progresses that it will eventually explain everything. If it doesn’t explain everything as time goes on, then you really don’t care about those things that it cannot explain. You place so much trust in science that you are willing to ignore anything and everything that is beyond scientific understanding and explanation. This is a presupposition that I find rather entertaining from those that claim to be open minded.

In order to explore the possibilities of a Creator one can certainly look at the universe around us. To some it will be evidence of a creator and to others it will not. The merits of this have been argued back and forth over the course of the previous threads. The limit of this approach pretty much comes to the fore when one surmises that there is indeed a creator. Beyond this the universe can only tell us something of God’s power, and how insignificant we are in comparison.

To understand and to know more about the Creator requires something beyond the study and observation of the physical world around us. A biologist can study the physiology of a human being. Perhaps an expert in the field could give many great scientific insights into human biology. He/she might even apply this expertise to the study of one individual. In so doing the biology of that person may be well understood and mapped out. This would not mean, however, that the researcher knew the person or had a clue about who they were. The researcher would not have a relationship with the “person” that helped them to know and understand the person even though they might know a lot about the person’s genes and body chemistry.

We get to know people through our relationships with them. They communicate things to us in many different ways. These things give us knowledge and they give us a deeper relationship with our fellow man.

Philosophy is helpful in getting a better understanding of the Creator that goes beyond simply relying on scientific data about the universe. Likewise, the Creator (assuming there is one) just might communicate things to the intelligent creatures that He created. This is where religion comes into play. Religion in its simplest terms boils down to “the relationship of a man and his god.” We believe that God has communicated many things to us through scripture and through Jesus Christ. You do not believe this. You cannot believe this because of your sole reliance upon scientific observation. IMHO this is simply a construct to enable you to remain rationally comfortable in your atheism.

 

[_A]

There is more than one definition of “respect”. When I talk about respect, I do not mean that I hold their beliefs in high esteem and on equal footing with core Christian beliefs. Rather, to me, respect means that I normally don’t interfere with their right to practice their religion. It means that I acknowledge and try to understand that, to them, their beliefs are true and logical and mine are a crock. Respect means I don’t ridicule them or their children. In the blood transfusion case, my approach would be: “I understand that these are your beliefs, but there is a life at stake here, and my conscience compels me to take action to save the child.”

I don’t actually think that – you must be mistaking me for someone else. I would say you have done some positive things in your life, helping other people. Now, if you were a cokehead and drug dealer…

I don’t find it too harsh. I like to hear what people have to say. I think all believers have at one point or other, if not many times over, considered this alternative. I have pondered it often myself. I am fairly confident in what I believe to be true.

The trouble is, communication breaks down when there is no respect. Without respect, we are just shooting the breeze.

I just wanted to point out that it is not always easy to have these kinds of conversations. I am pleased with the good response I have gotten here.

He didn’t create it for torture – Hell was for Satan and his angels, after they freely rebelled. They chose separation.

According to your legends, he created Satan as well, doing the best job he could. If he is omnipotent, he created hell intentionally for the Satan he created. No difference.

No, I don’t think so. He doesn’t want us to go there. He wants us to stay the heck away.

But he intentionally created beings who could only measure up sometimes? That is beastly, plain and simple.
If your mythos is true, he chooses to torture.

Are you strongly opposed to suffering out of love for someone else?

I am strongly opposed to suffering.

And He did it anyway. Out of love.

If your mythos is to be believed, he did it to convince his creations that he is the creator and that he was sorry he made them do all the animal sacrifice and stuff.
He could have just hired a sky-writer, but torturing a person to a horrible death is more his style.

His divinity is equal to God the Father. He humbled Himself to share in our humanity.

He has a god. You worship someone who worships someone else. That is why I referred to him as a ‘lesser god’. Don’t worry, there is no difference between an imaginary major and an imaginary general.

However, you seem to be an exception to this, my good man.

I get the feeling that even after many hours of intense talk between us and some fish in a boat, we would still not understand each other completely.
But that doesn’t mean I am unwilling to try anyway.

 

[_A]

You’re a little slow on this one. I haven’t placed anyone on my ignore list either. Read the post over again and notice the icon. This was designed for purposes of humor only. No offense was intended nor was I serious about the ignore list.

Sorry, I have just recently learned that (for me) placing someone on the ‘ignore’ list seems counter-productive. I might be a little too enthusiastic

You are exposing a predisposition. Serious scholarly study on your part might alter this predisposition.

What would you propose that is better than study of the real world around us? Care to compare the successes of religious prediction with the successes of scientific prediction?

No one is denying that the universe can tell us something about the creator. I would encourage one to look at the universe as part of the evidence. You have demonstrated that you are unwilling to do this. Your perception is that it is not evidence of the existence of a creator but that it is merely evidence of its own existence.

I wasn’t suggesting that you change your beliefs, just that if you follow Catholic teaching, the universe is something your god did that is much more clear and consistent. The bible is just a series of books written by various authors during one period of history.
The universe is a better bible.

Science deals with reality only in so far as the tools of science allow.

And religion deals with non-reality.

Science frequently fails to deal with reality because of the limits of science.

Where have you seen science failing to ‘deal with’ reality?

Simply pick any scientific topic of importance and you will find competing ideas to explain it. Frequently, the conventional wisdom of science is turned upside down with some new discovery. The new discovery often fails to prove any new theory or competing idea, but it merely blows away a conventional idea that supposedly explains something.

Science is going to keep doing this, too. Improving understanding by releasing old, failed beliefs.
Religion seems a little slower about this.

I believe that you think that science is the only tool for explaining anything. Moreover, you believe that as science progresses that it will eventually explain everything. If it doesn’t explain everything as time goes on, then you really don’t care about those things that it cannot explain. You place so much trust in science that you are willing to ignore anything and everything that is beyond scientific understanding and explanation. This is a presupposition that I find rather entertaining from those that claim to be open minded.

What do you suggest in it’s stead? (please remember there will be tests)

In order to explore the possibilities of a Creator one can certainly look at the universe around us. To some it will be evidence of a creator and to others it will not. The merits of this have been argued back and forth over the course of the previous threads. The limit of this approach pretty much comes to the fore when one surmises that there is indeed a creator. Beyond this the universe can only tell us something of God’s power, and how insignificant we are in comparison.

There are several ‘holy books’ which disagree with each other. Observational reality is less ambiguous, and more clear.
The universe is a better bible.

To understand and to know more about the Creator requires something beyond the study and observation of the physical world around us.

Like accepting an old book of ‘allegory’ as fact?

Religion in its simplest terms boils down to “the relationship of a man and his god.” We believe that God has communicated many things to us through scripture and through Jesus Christ. You do not believe this. You cannot believe this because of your sole reliance upon scientific observation. IMHO this is simply a construct to enable you to remain rationally comfortable in your atheism.

Nope, it is simply an observation of the evidence.

 

[AnonymousWade]

A,

I am a fellow atheist. A strong Atheist, to be exact. But you make me feel ashamed to be associated with this type of behavior. Just calm down on these people. They know God exists. We know he does not. I’m sure you’re not this adamant to those who don’t like hamburgers, correct?

I just had to register to say that.

And Christians: He is right about a few things. We’re not bad people, heathens, or criminals. We have thoughts, questions, and concerns, just like all of you. This thread wouldn’t be so popular if that was not the case.

To the poster for the Atheist child: Talk to them. Express your concern for their well-being. Let him know what your belief holds for him in the afterlife. I went through this exact same thing with my mother 2 years ago (I just turned 19). But if you’re serious about this, please whatever you do, do not force it on him. It will only drive him away from the religion even further, if not you, as well. you do not ‘choose’ to be an Atheist. I wish I were religious. But I’m not, and I’ve accepted it. I will raise my children Christian, and let them make their own conclusions when their older. I believe every child should be subject to religion when growing up, yet able to be free to make any decisions when older. I became an atheist at the age of 14. If he came to YOU about this, consider yourself lucky. He didn’t do what happens to most of us Atheists, which is being force-fed something we just don’t believe in all the time. It grows a scorn for religion in general.

Sit him down and talk to him about why he believes there is no God. Let him come to you on a weekend evening, and ask you all the questions he needs to hear answers to. Do not answer any questions that night. Simply research them as thoroughly as possible, and sit him down the next day, and come at him with the best Christian answers to his questions. Leave no question unfulfilled.

Be strong, he’s not even close to being a bad child. He’s just thinking on his own. I take pride when people can stray away from religion and learn all they can about the world, even if they go right back to religion. It’s a whole new world that opens up when your mind is not constricted by that of a God.

-Wade

 

[phooney]

I don’t think A has identified himself as a strong atheist, and I’m pretty sure you’d have a hard time getting the statement that he “believes there is no god” out of him

At the moment I disagree with the strong atheist position as well, I’m not even sure what evidence for that position would look like.

As for the people who don’t like hamburgers, that all depends on whether they believe that the hamburgers created us and have good advice on how to live our lives. Honestly, your analogy doesn’t apply very well.

Regarding the early poster who has the newly atheistic child, of course that doesn’t make him a bad person.

A quick question regarding your own children, if I may. If you have seen through the myth well enough to be a strong atheist, in that you apparently know there is no god, then why are you going to indoctrinate your children in the faith and then see what happens when they get older. Wouldn’t it be ‘better’ to raise them as atheists (lack of belief in god, not belief in no god) i.e. neutral and then let them decide?

 

[_A]

A,

I am a fellow atheist. A strong Atheist, to be exact. But you make me feel ashamed to be associated with this type of behavior. Just calm down on these people. They know God exists. We know he does not. I’m sure you’re not this adamant to those who don’t like hamburgers, correct?

Comparing affection for hamburgers with a belief in an invisible man in the sky is ridiculous. Hamburgers don’t create division among people the way that religions do.

I wish I were religious. But I’m not, and I’ve accepted it. I will raise my children Christian, and let them make their own conclusions when their older.

I think this is horrible. Why inculcate them with the fear-mongering belief which you don’t share?

Wade, if you really want your children to grow up with a choice, teach them about all religions, and let them choose which (or none!).

 

[_A]

I don’t think A has identified himself as a strong atheist, and I’m pretty sure you’d have a hard time getting the statement that he “believes there is no god” out of him

Gee, you get up early! You beat me, quick-draw Mc Phooney! Thanks

 

[Pax]

Comparing affection for hamburgers with a belief in an invisible man in the sky is ridiculous. Hamburgers don’t create division among people the way that religions do.I think this is horrible. Why inculcate them with the fear-mongering belief which you don’t share?

Wade, if you really want your children to grow up with a choice, teach them about all religions, and let them choose which (or none!).

Now this sounds like fear mongering to me.

 

[_A]

Now this sounds like fear mongering to me.

Really? I suggested a broader education, just how is that fear-mongering?

 

[Aleii]

Really? I suggested a broader education, just how is that fear-mongering?

Its all that hamburger talk!

 

[Hastrman]

“Invisible man in the sky?”

Forgive me, but you plainly do not know what we mean by the word “God”–anymore than you know what a Navajo means by the word “tsiyeel” or a Sumerian would mean by “nisig”–therefore you have no right to an opinion about it.

Or in other words, you are not qualified to say that you are an atheist.

And yes, I am prepared to translate those terms if someone other than A asks.

 

[AnonymousWade]

Wade, if you really want your children to grow up with a choice, teach them about all religions, and let them choose which (or none!).

And I don’t believe these people are Muslim extremists, Jesus Camp type, etc.

I believe that a child should be brought up religiously, then make a choice. Even though I don’t believe in it, I know that church instills fundamental qualities into a child better than most ways. “Listen to me or no dessert” would pretty much be dwarfed by “Listen to me or go to hell”. You are blind if you don’t see obvious differences in children brought up with religion, and children that are free to do as the please.

Your view of God as “invisible man in the sky” is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen. You cannot call yourself an smart atheist if you do not know the opposing ideals. To them, it’s much, much more than any “invisible man in the sky” could ever be.

Why don’t you show a little tolerance here, even if you don’t agree.

-Wade

 

[_A]

Its all that hamburger talk!

Now THATS scary!

 

[_A]

“Invisible man in the sky?”

Forgive me, but you plainly do not know what we mean by the word “God”–anymore than you know what a Navajo means by the word “tsiyeel” or a Sumerian would mean by “nisig”–therefore you have no right to an opinion about it.

I know what YOU mean by your god - something so vague and nebulous that it cannot be properly investigated (or more importantly falsified) by rational observation.
I was talking about the biblical god, Yahweh. He is described as not visible, a male and resides in the sky.

And I don’t believe these people are Muslim extremists, Jesus Camp type, etc.

I believe that a child should be brought up religiously, then make a choice. Even though I don’t believe in it, I know that church instills fundamental qualities into a child better than most ways. “Listen to me or no dessert” would pretty much be dwarfed by “Listen to me or go to hell”. You are blind if you don’t see obvious differences in children brought up with religion, and children that are free to do as the please.

I think that children brought up religious are abused children. A child is not a christian, buddist or a republican. Let them grow and make their own choice.

Your view of God as “invisible man in the sky” is the most ignorant statement I have ever seen.

Which part do you think is incorrect?

You cannot call yourself an smart atheist if you do not know the opposing ideals.

I don’t remember calling myself that. If you have an accusation to make, why veil it? If you want to say my description of the biblical god is stupid, go ahead. I think it is, too. I got it from the bible.
Are you really an atheist? Do you deny the holy spirit of the bible?

To them, it’s much, much more than any “invisible man in the sky” could ever be.

I know, they have invented lots of things not in the bible. That doesn’t make them true, just popular.

Why don’t you show a little tolerance here, even if you don’t agree.

-Wade

I am tolerant. Why are you intolerant of my phrasing ‘invisible man in the sky’? Why don’t you tell me which of those terms is not accurate in describing Yahweh.
Or retract your criticisms of the phrase.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Well, He’s not invisible, He’s not a man, and He doesn’t live in the sky. Other than that, good job!

A Volkswagen is a better pizza.

 

[_A]

Well, He’s not invisible,

Then you will have no problem posting a photograph of him. I can’t wait!

He’s not a man,

But you keep using ‘he’ when describing her (very confusing)

and He doesn’t live in the sky. Other than that, good job!

I remember something in Genesis about Yahweh worrying that men would make a tower tall enough to reach him. I know I did a good job, thanks.

A Volkswagen is a better pizza.

That makes as much sense as most of the bible.

If your god created the universe entire AND a few hundred page book, which do you think has more to say about him?
If you choose the book, why do you think it is to be taken more seriously than the universe?

The universe is a better bible.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Then you will have no problem posting a photograph of him. I can’t wait!But you keep using ‘he’ when describing her (very confusing)I remember something in Genesis about Yahweh worrying that men would make a tower tall enough to reach him. I know I did a good job, thanks.That makes as much sense as most of the bible.

If your god created the universe entire AND a few hundred page book, which do you think has more to say about him?
If you choose the book, why do you think it is to be taken more seriously than the universe?

The universe is a better bible.

The funny thing here is that you probably think you came out ahead in that exchange, even though you’re making no sense at all.

The fact that I have no photo of something does not mean that thing is invisible.
The fact that an entity is referred to (usually) as male does not make Him a man.

The universe and the Bible both have a lot to say about God. But the universe can’t tell us much about salvation, which is the point of the Bible.

 

[justinthemartyr]

I think that children brought up religious are abused children. A child is not a christian, buddist or a republican. Let them grow and make their own choice.

.
.

Actually, I was brought up with no faith in God or belief of any kind in the spiritual realms.

I became a thief, alcoholic, addict and was in jail 2 years before I was 22. Not to mention the boys home for three years.

I was also homosexual.

After trying everything I could on my own limited human power and reason to be happy and free, i said a prayer to jesus christ and all of those desires were removed from me and I went from being an evil person, harming everyone around me, to a productive person with an entirely different outlook on life and different belief system.

this all occurred in about 15 seconds of time after saying the prayer.

the problem with people like you, is that reason has not failed you entirely yet and your self inflicted pain is not great enough to look to God. When that occurs, you will come to know the one thing that can solve your problem and give you what you have been seeking all along. Some day you will say, wow, i wish I would have done that sooner.

but the fact is, you cannot, not until you are ready. that may be the day you are dying, but whenever, He is faithful to give you what you need, even if that means being without His grace after this life, which is a horrible place. Even as an agnostic, you are still in the midst of the grace of God, else you would not know love or have any things deemed “good” in your life.

 

[_A]

The funny thing here is that you probably think you came out ahead in that exchange, even though you’re making no sense at all.

The fact that I have no photo of something does not mean that thing is invisible.

If your god is visible, then it can be photographed. If invisible, then he can not be. Why do you make it more complicated than it has to be?
Are you offended that I said your god was invisible? Why?

The fact that an entity is referred to (usually) as male does not make Him a man.

The pronoun ‘he’ is usually used to refer to the masculine. If he is genderless, then the bible was wrong every time it used ‘he’ as the pronoun. Was Jesus a man? Is he visible? (remember the photography test!)

The universe and the Bible both have a lot to say about God. But the universe can’t tell us much about salvation, which is the point of the Bible.

That is because it is nonsense. If your bible says different, with no evidence, or evidence which conflicts with the universe, then the bible is contradicting whoever created the universe (I mean if you believe in a ‘creator’)

The universe can not be edited by a church with suspicious motives.
The universe is a better bible.