I am an atheist thread 4

[NaturalEnquirer]

It’s simple, really. If he is all-powerful AND all knowing, then he planned it that way. He made a laughably bad drama whose sole purpose was to do something that (if he is all-powerful) he could have done as easily without the drama.
The answer that fits best is that miracles are impossible. If you know of one that will stand up to testing AND indicates your god specifically, I would look into it.
There are no miracles - there is no intervening god. Assuming there is without a proper level of evidence just seems mad to me.

“Laughably bad” is an irrelevent value judgment. I think it’s quite a good drama.
Yes, He could have done it differently. Presumably there is something He wants us to learn from the way He did it.
I have personal experience of miracles, but nothing that will stand up to testing. This is not surprising. You don’t ask the God of the universe to dance at your command. Well, you can ask, but don’t expect Him to do it. He’s the boss, not you.

God bless.

 

[_A]

“Laughably bad” is an irrelevent value judgment. I think it’s quite a good drama.
Yes, He could have done it differently. Presumably there is something He wants us to learn from the way He did it.
I have personal experience of miracles, but nothing that will stand up to testing. This is not surprising. You don’t ask the God of the universe to dance at your command. Well, you can ask, but don’t expect Him to do it. He’s the boss, not you.

God bless.

I know the bible says that he answers all prayers…I guess he left a loophole that he doesn’t have to really answer…
He chose to use some of his creations to torture him? Great idea…very moral, this god of yours…next you will be telling me that he spies on people when they are having - er - private moments.
The story is beastly. If you read the bible with your morals intact, you would see that. I understand though that there is a great threat (hell) for those who dare to be freethinkers.
I only wish I could convince you that it was all a construct, so that you could think freely about it.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I know the bible says that he answers all prayers…I guess he left a loophole that he doesn’t have to really answer…
He chose to use some of his creations to torture him? Great idea…very moral, this god of yours…next you will be telling me that he spies on people when they are having - er - private moments.
The story is beastly. If you read the bible with your morals intact, you would see that. I understand though that there is a great threat (hell) for those who dare to be freethinkers.
I only wish I could convince you that it was all a construct, so that you could think freely about it.

And we’re back to personal insults. I assure you, my morals are intact, and I am a free thinker. I assume you’ll be reporting yourself to the moderators, as you have so often suggested to others?

As for the rest of your post, there’s nothing to it. “Spies on people”? Don’t be ridiculous.

 

[LaMar]

And we’re back to personal insults. I assure you, my morals are intact, and I am a free thinker. I assume you’ll be reporting yourself to the moderators, as you have so often suggested to others?

Do you find it funny, as I do, that the people who are most inclined to describe themselves as devout and believing seem to be the most unhappy of all religious believers?

The very best argument against religion is the behavior and attitude of the believers themselves. Forget about the god who killed himself to appease himself for the mistake which was his own creation (you put that very well). Just look at how all the different worshipers of this god treat one another. The end result of belief in this nonsense seems to be… strife and misery. People kill one another over this ludicrous nonsense. And this is supposed to be attractive? Are we supposed to raise our children with these attitudes?

 

[_A]

And we’re back to personal insults. I assure you, my morals are intact, and I am a free thinker. I assume you’ll be reporting yourself to the moderators, as you have so often suggested to others?

As for the rest of your post, there’s nothing to it. “Spies on people”? Don’t be ridiculous.

I insulted your god, not yourself (though I understand you feeling insulted).
You want to weigh your god with a moral system here on earth? If he is above all of our earthly morals, then he is definitely not moral (to us humans). If he is to be judged by the same moral code that we are…well…
Would I be moral if I told you to sacrifice humans, like your god told Abraham?
The only way that your god is moral is if you change the definition of moral to suit that beast.
If I felt that I had insulted you, I would, at least, report myself. Since I merely stated a plain fact about your invisible friend who lives in the sky, I have insulted no-one.

 

[justinthemartyr]

I insulted your god, not yourself (though I understand you feeling insulted).
You want to weigh your god with a moral system here on earth? If he is above all of our earthly morals, then he is definitely not moral (to us humans). If he is to be judged by the same moral code that we are…well…
Would I be moral if I told you to sacrifice humans, like your god told Abraham?
The only way that your god is moral is if you change the definition of moral to suit that beast.
If I felt that I had insulted you, I would, at least, report myself. Since I merely stated a plain fact about your invisible friend who lives in the sky, I have insulted no-one.

The god of reason is not sufficient.

 

[_A]

Forget about the god who killed himself to appease himself for the mistake which was his own creation (you put that very well).

Thanks, but I must admit that the words are not mine…I stole them from someone’s signature on www.richarddawkins.net/forum and unfortunately, I don’t even remember who…

Just look at how all the different worshipers of this god treat one another. The end result of belief in this nonsense seems to be… strife and misery. People kill one another over this ludicrous nonsense. And this is supposed to be attractive? Are we supposed to raise our children with these attitudes?

Not only that, we are supposed to torture our children with it and tell them that it is truly love and joy.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

I insulted your god, not yourself (though I understand you feeling insulted).
You want to weigh your god with a moral system here on earth? If he is above all of our earthly morals, then he is definitely not moral (to us humans). If he is to be judged by the same moral code that we are…well…
Would I be moral if I told you to sacrifice humans, like your god told Abraham?
The only way that your god is moral is if you change the definition of moral to suit that beast.
If I felt that I had insulted you, I would, at least, report myself. Since I merely stated a plain fact about your invisible friend who lives in the sky, I have insulted no-one.

I don’t really want to get in a big thing over it, but you said I’m an immoral non-thinker. How is that not an insult?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Do you find it funny, as I do, that the people who are most inclined to describe themselves as devout and believing seem to be the most unhappy of all religious believers?

This has not been my experience. Which people are you talking about?

The very best argument against religion is the behavior and attitude of the believers themselves. Forget about the god who killed himself to appease himself for the mistake which was his own creation (you put that very well). Just look at how all the different worshipers of this god treat one another. The end result of belief in this nonsense seems to be… strife and misery. People kill one another over this ludicrous nonsense. And this is supposed to be attractive? Are we supposed to raise our children with these attitudes?

I can only conclude that you’re looking at the facts through a very subjective filter. Yes, people have killed each other over religion. This is a tragedy. But you’re ignoring the untold numbers of saintly religious people throughout history, not to mention the day-by-day positive impacts of religion in average peoples’ lives.

 

[LaMar]

Thanks, but I must admit that the words are not mine…I stole them from someone’s signature on www.richarddawkins.net/forum and unfortunately, I don’t even remember who…

Well, that’s OK. You stole it from someone, and I stole it from you (I’m not going to forget that little couplet). Given that we’re people who don’t believe in a literal reading of scripture, we’re supposed to steal from each other (in the minds of the true believers).

Thanks for the link. I’m going to check that forum out when I get a minute. I haven’t read Dawkins but I am a big fan of Christopher Hitchens. I used to read his articles in Vanity Fair and Newsweek, and I got his book God Is Not Great for Christmas/Chanukah. (LOL!) He makes a lot of good points in that book about these traditions (my own included).

 

[TOP]

:yawn:

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

:yawn:

Yeah, I know.

 

[_A]

I don’t really want to get in a big thing over it, but you said I’m an immoral non-thinker. How is that not an insult?

Oh my. That was certainly not my intent. Where did I say that?
Can you quote it? Or are you adding words of your own?

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

If you read the bible with your morals intact, you would see that. I understand though that there is a great threat (hell) for those who dare to be freethinkers.
I only wish I could convince you that it was all a construct, **so that you could think freely **about it.

(emphasis mine)
Yes, I reworded slightly, but I don’t see how I changed the intent. You’re claiming that my morals are not intact, and that I’m not thinking.

Forget it. Apparently it was a misunderstanding. I’m kind of grumpy today, so I’m probably blowing it out of proportion. No big deal.

 

[TOP]

A,
Has anyone asked you to join the Catholic Church and to worship Jesus Christ in the Holy Trinity? If not, I invite you to come and worship with us. Tim

 

[justinthemartyr]

Of course it is ridiculous to think that a human died for three days, then became alive again.
The part that makes me laugh the most is that if he didn’t do it to himself, he is not omnipotent, and if he did do it to himself, it is far from the noble act that it is described as.

there is nothing humanly 'noble" about the historical fact that Christ was raised from the dead after three days, God needs no nobility, he is God, he can do as he pleases.

The fulfilment of the prophecies of over 1000 years being fulfilled is something different entirely, showing the absolute power of God above and beyond your god of reason.

The thing about the false god of reason is that it will never satisfy the longing inside of you that only the True Living God can fill.

you will find this out in time. and please, come and worship with us at a Catholic Church near you.

You are contempt prior to investigation.

 

[_A]

Forget it. Apparently it was a misunderstanding. I’m kind of grumpy today, so I’m probably blowing it out of proportion. No big deal.

Well, I think some of it is. Please find someone a few degrees warmer than you (today, I mean - you are usually a pretty warm person) and get yourself a hug. Failing that, give a gift.(usually works for me!) I think grumpiness is a terribly addictive disease and I hope you find an effective treatment before it infects further

(emphasis mine)
Yes, I reworded slightly, but I don’t see how I changed the intent. You’re claiming that my morals are not intact, and that I’m not thinking.

Sorry if it sounded that way, what I suggested is that you were not able to read the bible through a moral lens. Every time I find something in the bible that is awful, apologists simply tell me that I am not understanding it correctly. I understand fine, but what is preventing them is the threat of eternal hell if they so much as think that the god of the bible is just an invented character.
Abraham heard voices in his head and followed their direction to the point of placing his own child on a sacrificial altar and raising the knife.
How do you think the child was affected?
Is this ‘moral’ behaviour?
What about the guy who burned his daughter for god? Was that a moral act of worship?
The bible is full of behaviours which would not be acceptable in any community I have lived in, yet many still swear that the bible is full of ‘moral teachings’.
It may be so, but it is also full of ragingly horrible acts of immorality, usually sanctioned by Jehovah (or Yahweh, or Jesus, if you prefer)

 

[_A]

A,
Has anyone asked you to join the Catholic Church and to worship Jesus Christ in the Holy Trinity? If not, I invite you to come and worship with us. Tim

Thanks for the invite, Tim. It’s good of you to welcome me.
I am going to pass, though. It just isn’t up to my moral standards. (I think the people are great, though)

 

[_A]

You are contempt prior to investigation.

Considering all of the effort I have put into understanding the bible and those who worship the characters in there I think your statement is quite wrong.
I have a fair amount of contempt for churches in general, but as I remember it, so did that Jesus fellow you all like so well.

 

[TOP]

Thanks for the invite, Tim. It’s good of you to welcome me.
I am going to pass, though. It just isn’t up to my moral standards. (I think the people are great, though)

The invitation is open and you have the rest of your life to change your mind. God Bless, Tim