I am an atheist thread 4

[Pax]

Please explain to me why I need to explain the meaning of murder. You have a dictionary. Likewise, why should this example seem like nonsense? Take it for what it is and do not twist it and over complicate the issue. My statements are very straight forward.

If you have a specific difficulty with my statement, then please express it. I am not interested in giving a stream of explanations when I have no idea what is troubling you.

Perhaps the following from Wiki will help you:

“Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and most impose severe penalty on its commission.”

For the moment try using just the definition and not get into additional discussions such as abortion. I am more than willing to discuss how this fits in with the word “lawful” vs. “unlawful” later on.

 

[_A]

Please explain to me why I need to explain the meaning of murder. You have a dictionary. Likewise, why should this example seem like nonsense? Take it for what it is and do not twist it and over complicate the issue. My statements are very straight forward.

If you have a specific difficulty with my statement, then please express it. I am not interested in giving a stream of explanations when I have no idea what is troubling you.

Perhaps the following from Wiki will help you:

“Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought, as defined in Common Law countries. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and most impose severe penalty on its commission.”

For the moment try using just the definition and not get into additional discussions such as abortion. I am more than willing to discuss how this fits in with the word “lawful” vs. “unlawful” later on.

So when the god character in the stories of the old testament killed all the creatures in the world in a flood(except for his pals) he was wrong. When the church killed heretics, they were wrong?
Your definition is dependant on law, which changes. If your precious Yahweh were real, he should be brought up on charges of murder. Good thing he is invisible and imaginary, or he might have to answer for his crimes.

 

[Pax]

So when the god character in the stories of the old testament killed all the creatures in the world in a flood(except for his pals) he was wrong. When the church killed heretics, they were wrong?
Your definition is dependant on law, which changes. If your precious Yahweh were real, he should be brought up on charges of murder. Good thing he is invisible and imaginary, or he might have to answer for his crimes.

I addressed all of this in one of the prior threads…you have a short memory.

 

[_A]

I addressed all of this in one of the prior threads…you have a short memory.

I was pointing out that since the law about murder changes, it is a poor absolute. You might argue that the murders your god does are ‘lawful’, and therefore not murder, but you are just bending your absolute to fit your beliefs.
That is a lot of twisting.

 

[Excelency]

So when the god character in the stories of the old testament killed all the creatures in the world in a flood(except for his pals) he was wrong. When the church killed heretics, they were wrong?
Your definition is dependant on law, which changes. If your precious Yahweh were real, he should be brought up on charges of murder. Good thing he is invisible and imaginary, or he might have to answer for his crimes.

You atheists always start out with a ready made universe, say it all just happened without a cause and now someone has to prove God exists for you. You deny everything. You are like a corrupt prosecutor who has talked the judge into supressing all evidence. You never had a fair trial in mind for God, just deny deny deny. Your argument is old as the hills and as common as dirt, both of which just popped into existance right? Atheism won’t save you from the grave. Your philosophy, if the world had embraced it would never have resulted in the world we have today. Bad as the world may be at times, your world would be a primitive place with no reason to live or advance. No peace among the scattered tribes just fighting, survival and pandemics that eventually wipe man out. There is no other possible outcome for a world wide atheistic culture.

 

[Armor_of_God]

AoG

I said there was not enough evidence for the Christian God. If the evidence was enough everyone would be Christians.

When Christians start scrutinizing their own god like they do everyone else’s, they’ll become Atheists.

les

Hi Les,

I do realize you were referring to Christianity in this instance. However, I am assuming you are an atheist because you have not found any evidence in any of the religions in the world to indicate the existence of a God. Given that, why isn’t the whole world atheist? Why are you giving people a different timeline to “get with the program” and become atheist than you are for them to become Christian? If the facts are that cut and dried, shouldn’t we all be atheists by now?

 

[_A]

You atheists always start out with a ready made universe,

Does this sound to anyone else like a straw-atheist?

say it all just happened without a cause and now someone has to prove God exists for you.

If you are making the positive assertion that a god exists, you can either offer evidence or I will think that you believe without evidence - your choice.

Atheism won’t save you from the grave.

If we look at the real world instead of your fantasy, your religion will not save you from the grave either. I have just grown up enough to accept it.

Your philosophy, if the world had embraced it would never have resulted in the world we have today.

If you have proof of this, please place it here, but if you don’t, I am just going to treat it as another unsupported assertion.

Hi Les,

I do realize you were referring to Christianity in this instance. However, I am assuming you are an atheist because you have not found any evidence in any of the religions in the world to indicate the existence of a God. Given that, why isn’t the whole world atheist? Why are you giving people a different timeline to “get with the program” and become atheist than you are for them to become Christian? If the facts are that cut and dried, shouldn’t we all be atheists by now?

The whole world is atheist, until they decide to believe in one god or another (usually it is the god of their parents. Doesn’t this suggest anything to you?)

 

[Excelency]

What about your ready made universe Mr. Prosecutor? You will never have an answer for that so you will always dismiss it. Answer now please. Your Honor, I ask that the prosecution be compelled to answer the question. I consider the threat of my own extinction so grave that I cannot take the approach of illogic and unreason your religion advocates.

You put God on trial and demand he prove himself to you. Well what if he did? It would mean that all the fear and reverence the Catholic Church has for God is justified. But wait, if all this is true, then you are still a lowley sinner, but you have beheld the presence and image of God yet you continue to sin. What possible justification could their be for your continued existence?

You could not call on Jesus to save you because salvation is offered in this life, where proof of God’s existence is not allowed. Your still here but you will have had proof. There is a scripture in the NT where the Lord says all manner of sin in this life and the next will be forgiven, but that is in regards to the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which denial of God is tantamount to. In this case, forgiveness is denied. Dude, you in a heap o trouble! You better join you the Catholic Church and repent!

 

[_A]

What about your ready made universe Mr. Prosecutor? You will never have an answer for that so you will always dismiss it. Answer now please. Your Honor, I ask that the prosecution be compelled to answer the question. I consider the threat of my own extinction so grave that I cannot take the approach of illogic and unreason your religion advocates.

You put God on trial and demand he prove himself to you. Well what if he did? It would mean that all the fear and reverence the Catholic Church has for God is justified. But wait, if all this is true, then you are still a lowley sinner, but you have beheld the presence and image of God yet you continue to sin. What possible justification could their be for your continued existence?

You could not call on Jesus to save you because salvation is offered in this life, where proof of God’s existence is not allowed. Your still here but you will have had proof. There is a scripture in the NT where the Lord says all manner of sin in this life and the next will be forgiven, but that is in regards to the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which denial of God is tantamount to. In this case, forgiveness is denied. Dude, you in a heap o trouble! You better join you the Catholic Church and repent!

Threats would not make me believe. Sorry to see they have had that effect on you. I hope one day you overcome your fear.

 

[Pax]

I was pointing out that since the law about murder changes, it is a poor absolute. You might argue that the murders your god does are ‘lawful’, and therefore not murder, but you are just bending your absolute to fit your beliefs.
That is a lot of twisting.

I have dealt with all of this previously, but I do have a question for you. Since you “appear” to think that all of these things are relative, please tell me when you think we should legalize murder. Please explain to me, under what conditions of change in our social milieu do you think this will or should occur.

If you are making the positive assertion that a god exists, you can either offer evidence or I will think that you believe without evidence - your choice.

Also, when are you going to take up the challenge I posted earlier that you prove your positive assertion that our God is made up by men? I think that you should at least hold yourself to the same standard that you are holding Excelency to in the above quote. Even if you will not hold yourself to the same standard, I will. Afterall, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[Excelency]

Threats would not make me believe. Sorry to see they have had that effect on you. I hope one day you overcome your fear.

There is no “threat” of death. You die, it’s a fact of our existence. This is the Twilight Zone were living in, you just don’t realize it. You are so angry at the injustice of this world that you conclude that God must not exist. Like all atheists, you blame what man does on God, just how does that work?

A real God would not allow this you say? A real God would not consult you. Sad and unfortunate, but this life is also a weeding out process as there will be no thugs allowed in God’s kingdom. Earth can be a wonderful place but evil people ruin it. They will not be allowed to ruin things in God’s realm like they do here. No one will ask the questions there that you ask here. you say you won’t submit to fear, but death is supposed to make you afraid, that is it’s purpose. If the fear of your own existence ending does not frighten you then it may not be possible to reason with you.

If God can create the universes and the dimensions he probably does not have the time to come down here and fix our primitive bickering. A real God who is compasionate would give us a way to reconcile our hateful ways and crimes against each other. Ways and crimes which alienate God to us and make him want to avoid us for eternity

 

[_A]

I have dealt with all of this previously, but I do have a question for you. Since you “appear” to think that all of these things are relative, please tell me when you think we should legalize murder. Please explain to me, under what conditions of change in our social milieu do you think this will or should occur.

I like the laws against murder. I would even hold your imaginary friends (your gods) to them, if they were real.

Also, when are you going to take up the challenge I posted earlier that you prove your positive assertion that our God is made up by men?

I may have overstepped my knowledge there, but

every god which has been described to me sounds a lot more like an invention of men than an all-powerful being. I think that you should at least hold yourself to the same standard that you are holding Excelency to in the above quote. Even if you will not hold yourself to the same standard, I will. Afterall, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

True, I have admitted that I have no proper knowledge that all gods are invented, but the one in the bible sure looks that way! I would think an all-powerful god would have found a clear way to communicate.

 

[_A]

There is no “threat” of death. You die, it’s a fact of our existence.

This much I can agree with. Let’s see how long it takes for you to flee this bit of reality in terror to wishful thinking.

This is the Twilight Zone were living in, you just don’t realize it.

There we go! That was fast.
I think it is ridiculous that this, the only world which there is evidence for is something which you reject in favour of a book of poor fiction.

A real God would not consult you. Sad and unfortunate, but this life is also a weeding out process as there will be no thugs allowed in God’s kingdom.

So your god is so poor at creating that he creates ‘thugs’ which are unsuitable for his kingdom? Again, this sounds a lot more like plain human hate.

Earth can be a wonderful place but evil people ruin it. They will not be allowed to ruin things in God’s realm like they do here.

There is no other world. If you do nothing to save this one, you have done nothing.

No one will ask the questions there that you ask here. you say you won’t submit to fear, but death is supposed to make you afraid, that is it’s purpose.

That sounds like a fine way for a god to encourage free will - use fear - just like the mafia.

If God can create the universes and the dimensions he probably does not have the time to come down here and fix our primitive bickering.

That would be way too hard, especially for an imaginary god.

 

[Excelency]

Answer the question please! What about your ready made universe? God does not make thugs, people choose to be thugs. You expect too much for free. Why is it that you need to be spoon fed on everything? You give no answer, this is just some adolescent rant of yours. I supose if you die before being saved, when you get to hell, you’ll be complaining about the devil. I’m sure they will have a good online forum for you to vent in. I can’t prove I’m right, but if your wrong it does not matter how bravely you face it, you threw it away on primitive rage thinking.

 

[Pax]

I like the laws against murder. I would even hold your imaginary friends (your gods) to them, if they were real.I may have overstepped my knowledge there, but True, I have admitted that I have no proper knowledge that all gods are invented, but the one in the bible sure looks that way! I would think an all-powerful god would have found a clear way to communicate.

You not only overstepped your knowledge, but you betrayed that which you stated over and over during the course of the threads you started on atheism. You claimed that atheism is nothing more than not having a belief in a god.

I never attacked this statement even though I didn’t believe that was your true position. Your positive assertion that all gods are man made let the cat out of the bag.

So, go for it…prove the statement.

 

[_A]

Answer the question please! What about your ready made universe?

What about it? I didn’t answer because it is a poor question. If you would like to rephrase it, go ahead. If you meant how do I explain the origins of the universe, I don’t. Neither do you. If you say ‘goddidit’, you are just admitting your ignorance. I am just a little more honest about the things I don’t know.

I supose if you die before being saved, when you get to hell, you’ll be complaining about the devil. I’m sure they will have a good online forum for you to vent in. I can’t prove I’m right, but if your wrong it does not matter how bravely you face it, you threw it away on primitive rage thinking.

I think you are again trying to make me believe by threatening me with ‘hell’.
It won’t work.

You not only overstepped your knowledge, but you betrayed that which you stated over and over during the course of the threads you started on atheism. You claimed that atheism is nothing more than not having a belief in a god.

Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in a god or gods. I am more than just an atheist, just as you are more than a Christian.

I never attacked this statement even though I didn’t believe that was your true position. Your positive assertion that all gods are man made let the cat out of the bag.

So, go for it…prove the statement.

I have no proof, as I stated earlier. If you have any evidence that one or another of the gods are not man-made, I will gladly look at it, but I have seen nothing as yet to make me think there might be a real god (i.e.-not man-made)

 

[Aleii]

you say you won’t submit to fear, but death is supposed to make you afraid, that is it’s purpose. If the fear of your own existence ending does not frighten you then it may not be possible to reason with you.

There are many people at the end of life who die peacefully. Why do you say that fear is death’s purpose? Death is supposed to be transition from one life to the next according to Catholic teaching. Death is simply another part of life’s cycle. I do not fear my death, I only fear the pain it will cause others.

If God can create the universes and the dimensions he probably does not have the time to come down here and fix our primitive bickering. A real God who is compasionate would give us a way to reconcile our hateful ways and crimes against each other. Ways and crimes which alienate God to us and make him want to avoid us for eternity

God doesn’t have the time? What is he busy doing?

 

[Ronald_E]

A, I am drinking my coffee and glancing at this discussion. I left Catholicism when I was 18 because I went to the military and did not have to go to church any longer. Neither of my parents went to church. God was not real to me. I was agnostic most of my life and studied eastern philosophy, meditation, existentialism and psychology. I returned to Catholicism 3 years ago because I had no other choice when God blew my mind.
It is too long to write about here. Up until I returned I knew that whatever created me it was accomplished with love. I would meditate on how this universe could evolve creatures that have the capacity to love and hate. I began to realize since I became self aware that I had an instinctual knowledge of morality and became intensely aware how fragile and dangerous human beings are. It did not matter if they had a religious belief or not, I could see threat in each person who did not live in peace with one another. However, it was in my faith that I experienced the most distress because it was what I was exposed to daily and those practicing the faith were not living by standards I had been born with and was also being reinforced by my religious teaching.
I grew up and hated Christianity until I started reading the bible 5 years ago. Then I realized that I did not hate Christianity; I hated Christians.
I actually loved what I was learning in the bible about God and that each behavior has natural consequences associated with it. I cannot prove that God exists. When I hated religion it was because of a lack of love I observed in others practicing that religion. I now love my Catholic faith because of God’s love being revealed to me slowly throughout my life and study in search of meaning and love.
Ghandi made a statement about how he liked our Christ but not our Christians who are so unlike Christ. He said he would have converted had he known one Christian who was Christlike.
Christ said He would put His law into the hearts of those who do not know Him and if they listened to what was in their hearts their actions would be judged accordingly.
The God I know is through all and in all waiting for us to soften our hearts a little more because that’s just the natural process of His creation. Love cannot incorporate what is not love.
Krishnamurti said that when there is no division between the observer and the observed you will find truth. God cannot be known through belief. He can only begin to be known through lack of belief.
That last statement probably needs clarification.

 

[_A]

A, I am drinking my coffee and glancing at this discussion. I left Catholicism when I was 18 because I went to the military and did not have to go to church any longer. Neither of my parents went to church. God was not real to me. I was agnostic most of my life and studied eastern philosophy, meditation, existentialism and psychology. I returned to Catholicism 3 years ago because I had no other choice when God blew my mind.
It is too long to write about here.

I think it wouldn’t help, because what you have is not evidence, but personal belief. You had a remarkable thing happen, and you likely attributed it to a god, but humans have a predisposition to believe, so if I were you, I would be hyper-critical of anything that gains access to your belief.
You looked for a supernatural answer for a long time. You also must have assumed there was such an answer. Joining the military is also a good step toward being brainwashed. I hope you can escape your shackles.
The god described by the bible is an immature bully, and not a very good one at that.
Find better heroes to follow, and you will live a better life.

 

[Ronald_E]

I think it wouldn’t help, because what you have is not evidence, but personal belief. You had a remarkable thing happen, and you likely attributed it to a god, but humans have a predisposition to believe, so if I were you, I would be hyper-critical of anything that gains access to your belief.
You looked for a supernatural answer for a long time. You also must have assumed there was such an answer. Joining the military is also a good step toward being brainwashed. I hope you can escape your shackles.
The god described by the bible is an immature bully, and not a very good one at that.
Find better heroes to follow, and you will live a better life.

A, You presume to know what my experiences have been and what developed my perception of God. You exhibit the same attitude and disposition of superiority of knowledge that those who called themselves Christians exhibited to me which influenced me to reject their belief system. I was agnostic. I neither believed nor disbelieved. I observed first of all what was in my own mind that would cause belief in either direction. You do not know what I follow. You only know your perception of what you interpret through the underlying disposition that controls your perception. You do not know my heroes. You use your belief system to define me. I have no shackles now. The shackles I had were based on an existential isolation that separated me from other human beings and also an internal isolation from myself based on a fear of nothingness. When I faced the truth of my being nothing I began to soften and open to more possibilities.

A, you seem hard like the Christians who influenced me to leave the faith in my you youth. You have no idea who I am.

If you want to know who I am and why I am here, we can talk. If you believe you know me, then we cannot communicate. I haven’t read all the posts so I do not know what influenced your atheistic beliefs. I would be interested to know how you developed your belief system.