I am an atheist thread 4

[Minnie31]

I returned to Catholicism 3 years ago because I had no other choice when God blew my mind.
It is too long to write about here. Up until I returned I knew that whatever created me it was accomplished with love.

Can you at least summarize your experience so we get a better understanding of where you’re coming from?

 

[Ronald_E]

Can you at least summarize your experience so we get a better understanding of where you’re coming from?

I will try to keep this short. I started working in the mental health field after getting a BA in psychology from Penn State in '73. Prior to that I was in the Air Force for 4 years. I chose psych because of the influence of a friend in the military who had a degree in psych. Coming from coal miners on both sides of the family and a history of poor academic performance my identity was based on a sense of not being good enough and not belonging.
Low self-worth contributed to low expectations in undergrad and I certainly lived down to the low expectations and a flowering social phobia. I began to study meditation and Krishnamurti’s practice of mindfulness was an important part of my developing spirituality. I became well adept of observing myself throughout the day as I interacted with others. I became keenly aware of how we create conflict in our relationships. My father taught me to face my fears. This led to a desparate scream accross the parking lot at a work picnic to attempt to get a first date with my wife of 32 years.
Got a master’s degree at Penn State in psych. I have a private practice since '91. The last 12 years I have been involved in weekly consultations with a neuropsychiatrist who has provided invaluable knowledge on neurobiology. Studied parent-child attachments and the effects safe and unsafe attachments have on the developing brain. Used clinical hypnosis for 10 years to treat phobias and mood disorders through the application of self regulation techniques. However, something was missing.
Five years ago a woman who was dying of liver cancer was referred to me for treatment of depression. She had about 5 months to live. The time for her to die passed. She stated that she had nothing to live for. She was an ex-Catholic. November of '03 her hands started bleeding. She would call and tell me they would bleed profusely in public and she would be embarrassed and hide them somehow. I saw them bleed Feb 04.
I told her that I thought she was in the hands of Christ. This was before my return to Christianity.
Our work ended March 04. She stopped by my office June 04 and her complexion was gray. She could barely stand. She was wearing a heart monitor. I asked her if her hands were still bleeding and she said yes. I told her the next time they bleed to put them on her abdomen. She looked at me strangely and asked why. I could not tell her why since it just spontaneously came from my mouth. She promised she would. I still had not returned to Christianity.
She called 2 days later and told me that she had seen her Atheist doctors the previous day and they concluded that she was dying. They were going to do a MRI to estimate the extent of her illness. When she was sliding into the machine she said that she started bleeding more profusely than ever and her body started convulsing. She apologized to me because she did not remember to put her hands on her abdomen.
They couldn’t take the pictures until she stopped bleeding and convulsing. By the time she calmed there were 30 people in the room at this well known facility. The pictures were developed immediately and revealed that all she had left on her liver was a scar. Her atheist doctors started crying and everyone in the room held hands and thanked God.
She came in the next day and she was radiant. I did not see her again until Nov 05. I returned to Catholicism Easter of 05 and made a 40 year confession of my sins. That is another miraculous story.
When I saw her in Nov 05 she told me that her hands no longer bled. I then told her of my return to Catholicism the previous Easter and she started crying. She said that was the last time her hands bled. She still has not returned to our Catholic faith.

During one of our early meetings after her hands started bleeding I asked her to reflect on why her hands bled. She closed her eyes and opened them less than a minute later. She stated she was told to read Romans 8 and also that we were not to know why at this time.
Too much more to write. I am finished.
God Bless

 

[danandirma]

I just found out today, that my dad is an atheist… I am in shock, he has always been a Bible reader. What should I do?

 

[LaMar]

I just found out today, that my dad is an atheist… I am in shock, he has always been a Bible reader. What should I do?

Why should you do anything? He has his life, you have yours. Be grateful you have one another, despite your differences.

Just so ya know, nearly everyone who abandons a belief in a literal, personal God does so not because he doesn’t read enough scripture, but because he reads too much.

People who read the Bible often are more likely to become Atheists, rather than less likely. Once you’re familiar with the details, it becomes impossible to take seriously. Either you redefine your religion as myth and metaphor (as I do) or you toss it completely.

 

[Ronald_E]

Why should you do anything? He has his life, you have yours. Be grateful you have one another, despite your differences.

Just so ya know, nearly everyone who abandons a belief in a literal, personal God does so not because he doesn’t read enough scripture, but because he reads too much.

People who read the Bible often are more likely to become Atheists, rather than less likely. Once you’re familiar with the details, it becomes impossible to take seriously. Either you redefine your religion as myth and metaphor (as I do) or you toss it completely.

LaMar, You made a gross generalization. When I read the bible 4 years ago I saw that I loved Christianity which was so different from the Christians who said they were Christian. What we get from the bible is based on our level of emotional maturation. If we harbor hostility we will see a hostile God. If we are motivated by humility we will see an ever expanding sense of a loving God.
What I would recommend to this person is to talk to your father about reading the bible and what he gets out of it being an atheist. Get to know him better.

 

[danandirma]

LaMar, You made a gross generalization. When I read the bible 4 years ago I saw that I loved Christianity which was so different from the Christians who said they were Christian. What we get from the bible is based on our level of emotional maturation. If we harbor hostility we will see a hostile God. If we are motivated by humility we will see an ever expanding sense of a loving God.
What I would recommend to this person is to talk to your father about reading the bible and what he gets out of it being an atheist. Get to know him better.

thank you Ronald, I will

 

[Ronald_E]

thank you Ronald, I will

You are very welcome, Dana. I do not know how to speak to these different names. Pls forgive me if I get it wrong. Your father is very blessed to have a child who loves him like you do.
God Bless You and Your Father

 

[phooney]

This led to a desparate scream accross the parking lot at a work picnic to attempt to get a first date with my wife of 32 years.

For humour purposes I chose to take this sentence out of context, and was very pleased with the results

I wonder if this miraculous recovery made it into any medical journals?

I like it how you point out that the doctors were atheists, nice touch.

It’s a nice anecdote, and if true then I’m happy this woman recovered. However the world is full of conflicting anecdotes, so this is pretty meaningless. The way you describe yourself over time doesn’t really show any change in your mind, you always seemed to believe, so I doubt very much your claims about not being a christian at those particular times. Perhaps you didn’t go to church or confess your sins, but telling her she was “in the hands of christ”?? Come on.

I’m not sure if there’s some underlying psychological principle that you were drawing on when you told her that and to put her hands on her abdomen, but it sounds like you were very negligent in your duties.

Obviously I don’t have all the details though, no offence intended.

 

[_A]

A, You presume to know what my experiences have been and what developed my perception of God.

I presumed that you would say that you had a personal experience which could only be considered testimony. That is what I got.
I don’t mind talking, but I have often heard that someone claims to have evidence, but it is not available to anyone but themselves.

Why do you think she was bleeding from the hands?

A, you seem hard like the Christians who influenced me to leave the faith in my you youth. You have no idea who I am.

If you believe you know me, then we cannot communicate. I haven’t read all the posts so I do not know what influenced your atheistic beliefs. I would be interested to know how you developed your belief system.As I said, I was assuming that you had evidence available only to yourself, and that is what you had.
As to the ‘atheistic beliefs’, you clearly don’t know what atheism means let me fill a paragraph about it for you.

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god. Nothing more.(I stole that from another posters signature)

That’s it. I also happen to have noticed that the bible is much nonsense and impossible tales, but that has nothing to do with atheism, just my personal education.

November of '03 her hands started bleeding.

What steps did you take to address her bleeding, as a health care professional?

I told her that I thought she was in the hands of Christ. This was before my return to Christianity.

If you say to a patient (risking professional opinion on it) you have already been a believer, and a strong one at that.
I think if you can get over your fear of death, you may be able to free yourself from charlatans who try to sell you an escape.

The pictures were developed immediately and revealed that all she had left on her liver was a scar. Her atheist doctors started crying and everyone in the room held hands and thanked God.

Sounds like pure nonsense to me, but it could be true. Have we only your word on this, or are some of those ‘atheist doctors’ available for comment?

During one of our early meetings after her hands started bleeding I asked her to reflect on why her hands bled. She closed her eyes and opened them less than a minute later.

Again, what is your professional opinion on how this should be dealt with? This is a faith-based approach, clearly, yet you claimed to be agnostic (unless I misunderstood…)

I just found out today, that my dad is an atheist… I am in shock, he has always been a Bible reader. What should I do?

Read it yourself. It is the surest way do losing your belief.

LaMar, You made a gross generalization. When I read the bible 4 years ago I saw that I loved Christianity which was so different from the Christians who said they were Christian. What we get from the bible is based on our level of emotional maturation. If we harbor hostility we will see a hostile God. If we are motivated by humility we will see an ever expanding sense of a loving God.
What I would recommend to this person is to talk to your father about reading the bible and what he gets out of it being an atheist. Get to know him better.

emphasis mine
Why do you have to ‘get something out of it’? Isn’t it enough that it is the truth, even if it is unrewarding?

 

[Minnie31]

Five years ago a woman who was dying of liver cancer was referred to me for treatment of depression. She had about 5 months to live. The time for her to die passed. She stated that she had nothing to live for. She was an ex-Catholic. November of '03 her hands started bleeding. She would call and tell me they would bleed profusely in public and she would be embarrassed and hide them somehow. I saw them bleed Feb 04.
I told her that I thought she was in the hands of Christ. This was before my return to Christianity.

Thanks for taking the time to post your story. I’m assuming that you attributed your patient’s bleeding hands to the stigmata, the wounds of Jesus. I am no medical expert by any means, but I have heard that in cases of extreme mental stress, bleeding from the skin can occur. Now, you appear to be much more educated in this field than myself, but have you first considered other explanations for your patient’s condition before concluding it must be supernatural? And if so, what other avenues have you considered?

She apologized to me because she did not remember to put her hands on her abdomen.

Maybe I’m missing something here, but what was the significance of this?

She called 2 days later and told me that she had seen her Atheist doctors the previous day and they concluded that she was dying. They were going to do a MRI to estimate the extent of her illness. When she was sliding into the machine she said that she started bleeding more profusely than ever and her body started convulsing. She apologized to me because she did not remember to put her hands on her abdomen.
They couldn’t take the pictures until she stopped bleeding and convulsing. By the time she calmed there were 30 people in the room at this well known facility. The pictures were developed immediately and revealed that all she had left on her liver was a scar. Her atheist doctors started crying and everyone in the room held hands and thanked God.
She came in the next day and she was radiant.

I have heard other stories similar to this. I suppose my first thoughts on the whole scenario would be that there are many things that we humans do not understand about our own bodies. And perhaps there are ways currently unknown to us that the human body can amazingly cure itself of disease absence supernatural intervention.

 

[Minnie31]

I wonder if this miraculous recovery made it into any medical journals?

I wonder this too. And if so, maybe Ronald E can direct us to where we can read more about it.

 

[lkddav]

Hi Les,

I do realize you were referring to Christianity in this instance. However, I am assuming you are an atheist because you have not found any evidence in any of the religions in the world to indicate the existence of a God.

True.

Given that, why isn’t the whole world atheist? Why are you giving people a different timeline to “get with the program” and become atheist than you are for them to become Christian? If the facts are that cut and dried, shouldn’t we all be atheists by now?

I simply answered the question" why isn’t the whole world atheist?.

‘A’ answered the question in post #679. Everyone starts out as an Atheist. Atheist is the default position. Everyone is an atheist until they are indoctrinated into a belief. As ‘A’ said, it is usually what their parents believe. Most people won’t question their belief because most feel they need a big shoulder to cry on in hard times. Their invisible God provides that.

The fact that all 2.2 billion Christians cannot prove an atheist wrong says a lot about their God.

The fact that not one piece of hard evidence has been presented in all four of ‘A’'s threads says a lot about the Christian God.

les

 

[Armor_of_God]

True.

I simply answered the question" why isn’t the whole world atheist?.

‘A’ answered the question in post #679. Everyone starts out as an Atheist. Atheist is the default position. Everyone is an atheist until they are indoctrinated into a belief. As ‘A’ said, it is usually what their parents believe.

No, A didn’t come anywhere near to answering the question. All he did was express his belief. Conversly, a Christian believes that we are all born with a knowledge of God, for we are made in His image and His laws and love are written on our hearts and in our souls. So, we are back to square one.

Most people won’t question their belief because most feel they need a big shoulder to cry on in hard times. Their invisible God provides that.

I question my belief all the time. I know many others who do, as well.

The fact that all 2.2 billion Christians cannot prove an atheist wrong says a lot about their God.

I’m not sure how many Christians are trying to prove atheists wrong. I have not witnessed any atheists proving Christians wrong yet, on this thread or anywhere else.

The fact that not one piece of hard evidence has been presented in all four of ‘A’'s threads says a lot about the Christian God.

les

Please elaborate. All I have observed so far on these threads is that all the types and forms of evidence presented are not the “right kind”. This has only told me something about the atheist.

 

[_A]

Please elaborate. All I have observed so far on these threads is that all the types and forms of evidence presented are not the “right kind”. This has only told me something about the atheist.

If you are making a regular claim, regular evidence will suffice.
If your claim is extraordinary, then it requires extraordinary evidence.
An earlier poster asked a believer to pray for the terraforming of the moon, to give your god an opportunity to provide evidence of himself. I don’t think this would be conclusive, but I would be much more willing to consider your ‘god hypothesis’.
Instead, we were found that god has no interest in having a real and measurable effect. He chooses to hide from all reason - and is most certainly against testing.
This sounds more and more like an invented god who isn’t really there.
What evidence? Just testimonial? That would do for a traffic accident, but this is FAR more important.

 

[Ronald_E]

For humour purposes I chose to take this sentence out of context, and was very pleased with the results

I wonder if this miraculous recovery made it into any medical journals?

I like it how you point out that the doctors were atheists, nice touch.

It’s a nice anecdote, and if true then I’m happy this woman recovered. However the world is full of conflicting anecdotes, so this is pretty meaningless. The way you describe yourself over time doesn’t really show any change in your mind, you always seemed to believe, so I doubt very much your claims about not being a christian at those particular times. Perhaps you didn’t go to church or confess your sins, but telling her she was “in the hands of christ”?? Come on.

I’m not sure if there’s some underlying psychological principle that you were drawing on when you told her that and to put her hands on her abdomen, but it sounds like you were very negligent in your duties.

Obviously I don’t have all the details though, no offence intended.

You guys are beautiful. There was a team of medical professionals working on this. I was only helping her with depression and she was referred to me by her physical therapist who was working closely with her doctors. She stated her doctors were atheists. I am just telling you what I know and what I observed. They stated to her physical therapist that nothing they did caused her hands to bleed.
Once again you do not know me and consequently I can’t expect you to trust what I write here. I do not lie and I hold no illusions or delusions about what I reported to you. If you have no idea about psychological dynamics then you cannot understand the radical change that occurred in my life. You cannot even begin to understand the type of work I do. If you enter another person’s world of pain and fear the risk each person takes in this process is tremendous. It becomes a process of life and death. I take this process most seriously and your comments express ignorance about this process. You also are ignorant about my professionalism and integrity. I revealed something to you that is a mystery and a turning point in my life. I am happy it happened.
What your assumptions exhibit is a pessimism that I lived in for a long time. In your atheism you are isolated in your automated response to an unknown concept of God that in some mysterious way drew you to this site.
I wonder why you debate since God is meaningless to you anyway.
For you to say I was negligent in my duty is like me telling you that what you did with your life today was meaningless. I told about a comment that took 5 seconds to express. Do you see how narrow your perception is? The proof is in the relationship and in the integrity of the relationship we have with one another. I know I have integrity.

 

[Pax]

If you are making a regular claim, regular evidence will suffice.
If your claim is extraordinary, then it requires extraordinary evidence.
…
…

Now let’s see here. Since most people have a religious belief, then having a religious faith is a regular claim. Since most are not atheists then the atheist claim is the extraordinary claim.

Since you positively asserted that there is no God, then it is time for you to provide extraordinary proof for your extraordinary claim.

 

[LaMar]

Now let’s see here. Since most people have a religious belief, then having a religious faith is a regular claim. Since most are not atheists then the atheist claim is the extraordinary claim.

Since you positively asserted that there is no God, then it is time for you to provide extraordinary proof for your extraordinary claim.

I want you to prove the Loch Ness Monster doesn’t exist. When you’re done with that, you can prove that Bigfoot and Yeti and the space creatures flying alien aircraft around area 51 don’t exist.

You can’t? Well, that means these things are all obviously real, right? I mean, if you can’t prove they don’t exist, then by your logic they obviously do!

The old Roman legal codes contained the phrase the burden of proof is upon the head of the accuser. The ancient Romans understood what you seem not to. If you believe your God exists, then you should be able to trot him out to do some magic tricks. If you can’t do that much, then you shouldn’t expect anyone else to take him seriously.

I’ll pay you 1000 dollars if you have God send a plague of locusts to my town. He did that in the bible, so he should be able to do it today. Then the matter will be settled. I’ll convert to the Roman Catholic Church, admit I was wrong, and you’ll have a nice night out on my dime.

Any time you’re ready…

 

[Armor_of_God]

I want you to prove the Loch Ness Monster doesn’t exist. When you’re done with that, you can prove that Bigfoot and Yeti and the space creatures flying alien aircraft around area 51 don’t exist.

You can’t? Well, that means these things are all obviously real, right? I mean, if you can’t prove they don’t exist, then by your logic they obviously do!

Hey, what makes you so sure they don’t?

 

[LaMar]

Hey, what makes you so sure they don’t?

Hell, maybe they do. But you know, for all the people who claim to have been abducted by aliens, nobody seems to be able to provide anything substantive to back it all up.

I’ve been to Cairo and Damascus and even Jersey City, and I can prove as much with artifacts and photographs from these foreign and unworldly climes.

I understand that our economy’s shot, and I don’t know what the starship gift shop charges for souvenirs with this exchange rate; but come on: none of the abductees can snag an ashtray or bathtowel on the way out the door?

 

[Nullasalus]

The old Roman legal codes contained the phrase the burden of proof is upon the head of the accuser. The ancient Romans understood what you seem not to. If you believe your God exists, then you should be able to trot him out to do some magic tricks. If you can’t do that much, then you shouldn’t expect anyone else to take him seriously.

God, not this one.

If a person claims that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence. It, too, is a claim. “Proving a negative is next to impossible!” is about as good an excuse from this as “Proving God exists is next to impossible!” That’s why nowadays the smarter atheists describe themselves as agnostics in conversation - that way they can stay right in the comfortable role of questioner.

Besides, if God could be ‘trotted out to do tricks’, He wouldn’t be much of a God, eh? Arguments for - and against - the Christian God don’t exactly lend themselves to the sort of evidence you’d expect in the latest issue of Nature. It’s a question of philosophy, of reason, of interpreting and exploring what we see in the natural world, considering, and reflecting upon it. I’m surprised people aren’t saying ‘show me the EVIDENCE that mathematical realism is true! Come on, make a number appear out of thin air!’

Not to mention the ‘everyone is born an atheist’ canard. Everyone is born illiterate, infirm and without full control of their bowel movements too.

And finally the ‘A surest way to become an atheist is to read the bible’ bit. Yeah, that’s why the Gideons and the other groups are falling over themselves to get bibles into the hands of people. Vastly many others read the bible, ponder things, maybe even do a little research - and typically feel fulfilled and closer to their faith because of it.

These atheist threads always turn out the same - the same old arguments, the same old gimmick responses, the same old simmering resentment. It’s like a Dawkins fan club threw up in here.