I am an atheist thread 4

[Brady_W]

LaMar,

Hey sorry bout that I wrote that wrong, about the person asking the question. I was trying to quote you the by saying asserting but must have mixed that up in my head. so, sorry.

Anyways, my main point is that it is the Atheist who asserts that there is no God, because throughout history most everyone has acknowledged a God. So, the way I see it, the burden of proof is still on the atheist.

About incorruptibles, to tell ya the truth I’m a little suprised the conversation took off like it did on the subject. I wasn’t debating if the incorruptibles are real or not. I was saying, if I were atheist, I’d go see them, and find out. And I should of put this in the first place, in my mind I was just using them as an example for all of the supposed miracles. Such as thousands all across Europe attesting to seeing the sun dance, or all of the thousands of medical cures at Lourdes, which no physician seems to have an explanation for.

In my own opinion, I think that many miracles are probably not true, but I also think that many are. Now the reason I said if I were atheist I’d go see them is this, it would be a starting point to start to believe.
Honestly, I don’t do much research on miracles myself, mainly because my own faith is not based on them, I don’t really have the need. (Although, I do plan to see some of them someday.)

I think thats all I’ll say about miracles and such for now, from here I’ll probably just use reason.

God Bless,
Brady

 

[LaMar]

LaMar,

Hey sorry bout that I wrote that wrong, about the person asking the question. I was trying to quote you the by saying asserting but must have mixed that up in my head. so, sorry.

Anyways, my main point is that it is the Atheist who asserts that there is no God, because throughout history most everyone has acknowledged a God. So, the way I see it, the burden of proof is still on the atheist.

That’s not really the way it works.

As a Catholic you don’t believe Inanna, the old Sumerian goddess (the original queen of heaven) is calling the shots in the world, do you?

It’s not your responsibility to prove Inanna doesn’t exist as the goddess of the macrocosm. You’re content with your own thing. If I’m her missionary, then it’s my responsibility to have her ring your doorbell and introduce herself, maybe do some miracles, and like that.

That’s the way I interpret things. I’m not the same kind of Atheist as A is (I’m secular, but I have a religious tradition I follow). S/he and the other atheists are welcome to correct me or add to this if they feel I’m mistaken.

About incorruptibles, to tell ya the truth I’m a little suprised the conversation took off like it did on the subject. I wasn’t debating if the incorruptibles are real or not. I was saying, if I were atheist, I’d go see them, and find out. And I should of put this in the first place, in my mind I was just using them as an example for all of the supposed miracles. Such as thousands all across Europe attesting to seeing the sun dance, or all of the thousands of medical cures at Lourdes, which no physician seems to have an explanation for.

In my own opinion, I think that many miracles are probably not true, but I also think that many are. Now the reason I said if I were atheist I’d go see them is this, it would be a starting point to start to believe.
Honestly, I don’t do much research on miracles myself, mainly because my own faith is not based on them, I don’t really have the need. (Although, I do plan to see some of them someday.)

I think thats all I’ll say about miracles and such for now, from here I’ll probably just use reason.

God Bless,
Brady

I believe in miracles too. In fact, there’s a good example here on this forum.

There’s a lady who posts here sometimes named Sister Amy. She was very open in one of her articles about a personal miracle she had. It wasn’t a physical thing, as I remember it, but it was a touching and very honest account about how God led her to Islam.

I’m fairly convinced that Islam is not for me (though I do admire the theology in many ways) but I can still appreciate the sincerity of a personal miracle, and I would never mock anybody who felt the divine touch their lives for the better. I can tell you honestly that I have never had any such experience, but if there is a God (which many believe, but I doubt), I believe he would make his presence felt among human beings from time to time.

Despite the fact that I don’t agree with her on, well, anything, Sister Amy is one of the most pleasant people I have run across, anywhere. I highly recommend her contributions.

Peace,

LaMar

 

[phooney]

I’m an agnostic atheist

I’d expect some kind of evidence from either the ‘strong atheist’ or the theist in order to convince me.

I have no idea what evidence of ‘no god’ would look like, but I can think of an insanely large number of things that an existant god could do if they wanted my belief, even without tampering with my free will.

 

[Minnie31]

Hi Minnie,
I can tell you how I choose what to believe. Usually through logic and reason. So, no I don’t think its allright to pretend to believe in God’s existence, and hope to receive the reward. Now both of these sentences seem to contradict Paschal’s wager. They do. But if you read what I wrote in my first post, I did not pose them as a proof of God. In fact I don’t really like the argument myself. The reason I chose to put it there was basically just to imply that the question of whether God exists or not is an important one, then if I were an atheist, realizing how important the question is, I’d save up my money and go check out those incorruptibles.

There are a number of things I don’t like about the wager in itself. I am Catholic, and don’t really think its wise to believe in God because of a wager. But it could be a starting point. No the main point was to point out the importance of the question.

God Bless,

Brady

You said that you chose to believe what you believe through logic and reasoning. Is it fair to say that through your logic and reasoning you came, not chose, to believe in God? Just as I can say that through my questioning and with the knowledge I have so far, I came to be uncertain about God’s existence? I didn’t choose to be an agnostic, I just am.

I understand that you did not try to prove God in your first post, especially through Paschal’s wager. And I agree with you that whether or not God exists is an important question, and an interesting one too.

 

[_A]

Hey guys (and gals), I’m new to this forum thing, so forgive me if I say something which has already been covered, I was going to try to read all of the posts to catch up on the conversation, but uh there’s a lot ha ha.

Welcome, and just jump right in, I don’t mind!

First off I noticed there was a lot of “onus of proof” conversation going on. I’m inclined to think it lays with the atheist. My reasoning is that 99% of all civilizations, of all times, have believed in one sort of god or another, so it seems a bit, uh “snobberish” to say that onus of proof lays with the theist.

The burden of proof lies with someone making a positive assertion. Let’s look at what I said about that guy who left.
If I had said he was a liar, I would be required to demonstrate that. If however, I said that I thought what he said was inaccurate (I think I said ‘fairy story’), then he can either offer some evidence supporting his ‘positive assertion’ (his was that a woman with disease was healed miraculously in the presence of a team of atheist medical professionals) or look like he was just spinning tales.
I may not have demonstrated that he was a liar, but he certainly has not built any confidence in his story, and it remains as valid as any fiction (unless he decides to bring back some evidence).

Secondly, I’ve always thought that if I were an Atheist, I’d save my money up, and travel over to Europe. Then I’d check out some of these miracles. Like incorrupt bodies of the Saints.

Even if they are incorrupt bodies, (so far they look like pieces, and not totally incorrupt) why does that suggest that there is a god? Why does it suggest a certain version of the bible is the right one? Why does it suggest that kissing the ring of an old man in a funny hat is memorable?
It suggests nothing about a god unless you already believe.

I say the question is important, why? I’ll use Paschal’s wager.
Brady

Pascals wager is a bad bet. I would think that if a god gave you the ability to reason, he would want you to use that ability and not just bet the safe way.
And you are wrong about losing nothing. If you believe the bible, you might kill a child who curses their parents. That is far from nothing.

I don’t understand your standard of proof. First you say that the person making a positive claim (for instance, “I witnessed a miracle”) must provide vidence, or you won’t believe it. Fine.

But then you turn around and make a positive claim (as Pax recently called you on), such as “This guy is a liar”. And yet you have no evidence to support this positive claim.

Seems kind of hypocritical. So much for that “golden rule” business.

I didn’t call him a liar, I said that his statements looked like plain fiction without support. I can make a story that a sick woman helped me kill Yahweh. Will you just believe it, or would you require more than just my say-so?

Now the reason I said if I were atheist I’d go see them is this, it would be a starting point to start to believe.

Are you saying here that if you were an atheist, you would seek to believe? If so, why?

 

[Believe_85]

Hi A,
I’m not following the posts much, but I noticed you said something about incorrupt Saint’s body parts…if you Google “incorrupt saints” and then click on the “image” tab there are tons of pictures of full bodies on display most of them dead in the 1700s or earlier, close ups and all. They are interesting to see…I don’t know if you are interested but for what it’s worth.

 

[Brady_W]

If I were an atheist, I think I would seek to beleive, (of course it is difficult to know what’d I do since i’m not in that position)

I think probably the main reason I would seek to believe is the world would make a lot more sense to me.

Why are humans the only creature on earth capable of rational reason? We are just more highly evolved? Is that the answer? There isn’t any animal even close to us in this regard. Monkey’s I think not.
Ever watched a monkey? They can do some cool things, but so can my cow back home. Neither one of them is anything compared to human thought.
Speaking of monkeys. Maybe we evolved from them. or somthing like them. Well this doesn’t make sense either. Because if we evolved from monkeys why are they still around, why didn’t the evolve with us. And if it was just something like a monkey or an ape but not what they are today, that doesn’t make sense either, because the fact that we have monkeys now means we couldn’t have evolved from something like them. Because that would be a digression in the animal kingdom. Monkeys evolve into humans, but then monkeys by some form of evolution come back. There’s no need for it.
In fact why aren’t all of the animals more highly evolved than us, many of them we know were here before us. Why are they evolving so much slower. They still aren’t even close to us, and their older.
I am a cellular and molecular biologist, and have to study evolution all the time. I think evolution exists, but without being directed…it makes no sense.

The world makes no sense without God, I think it was A who didn’t know what evidence would look like for no God, I do. Nothing. The evidence for no God is Nothingness.

By the way, I still don’t agree with you guys on burden of proof, but I’m not getting anywhere there, so I’ll try to provide some reasonable explanations for the existence of God, and I expect you’ll do the same for no God. Fair enough??

 

[Armor_of_God]

If you are making a regular claim, regular evidence will suffice.
If your claim is extraordinary, then it requires extraordinary evidence.

I don’t think that belief in God is so extraordinary.

An earlier poster asked a believer to pray for the terraforming of the moon, to give your god an opportunity to provide evidence of himself. I don’t think this would be conclusive, but I would be much more willing to consider your ‘god hypothesis’. Instead, we were found that god has no interest in having a real and measurable effect. He chooses to hide from all reason - and is most certainly against testing. This sounds more and more like an invented god who isn’t really there.

Somehow, I don’t think this would be anywhere near sufficient for you. If someone told you they saw the terraformed moon, you wouldn’t believe them. If they showed you pictures or video tape, you would think it was doctored. If they told you they had freely walked and lived on the moon with no breathing apparatus, you would say they had lost it. If they brought you plants from this moon, you would say they picked them from their backyard. You would actually have to fly to the moon yourself, pick some plants, and do some tests on them. Then you would probably say that someone cultivated them elsewhere, flew to the moon, and put them in the ground. You require proof, just as Thomas required proof and did not believe that Jesus was truly risen until he put his hand in Jesus’ wounds. The difference is that Thomas truly loved Jesus, whereas you appear to be just the opposite. God does provide proof if we really need it, but He also requires a genuine desire to know Him. So long as you despise Him, He will hide from you. Hate is incompatible with Love.

What evidence? Just testimonial? That would do for a traffic accident, but this is FAR more important.

I am not sure it is really all that important to you. Much evidence has been provided – much more than just personal testimony – and you have discounted it all with a few strokes of the keyboard. If it were that important to you, you would have taken the time to do some honest research.

 

[_A]

If I were an atheist, I think I would seek to beleive, (of course it is difficult to know what’d I do since i’m not in that position)

Why do you think this belief is important? I am sure you can see many examples of this belief creating misery.

I think probably the main reason I would seek to believe is the world would make a lot more sense to me.

I think it makes a lot more sense without a god. Lots of confusing questions arise when one postulates a god, like, who created god?

Why are humans the only creature on earth capable of rational reason? We are just more highly evolved? Is that the answer? There isn’t any animal even close to us in this regard. Monkey’s I think not.
Ever watched a monkey? They can do some cool things, but so can my cow back home. Neither one of them is anything compared to human thought.
Speaking of monkeys. Maybe we evolved from them. or somthing like them. Well this doesn’t make sense either. Because if we evolved from monkeys why are they still around, why didn’t the evolve with us. And if it was just something like a monkey or an ape but not what they are today, that doesn’t make sense either, because the fact that we have monkeys now means we couldn’t have evolved from something like them. Because that would be a digression in the animal kingdom. Monkeys evolve into humans, but then monkeys by some form of evolution come back. There’s no need for it.

You have a very limited understanding of evolution if you think that ‘digression in the animal kingdom’ is strange or wrong.
Look at the digression in breeds of dogs.

In fact why aren’t all of the animals more highly evolved than us, many of them we know were here before us. Why are they evolving so much slower. They still aren’t even close to us, and their older.

What makes you think that nothing else is more ‘highly evolved’ than us? Just because we seem to be the best at exploiting at the moment?

I am a cellular and molecular biologist, and have to study evolution all the time. I think evolution exists, but without being directed…it makes no sense.

I doubt you have studied much about evolution. You would not have made such an obvious error earlier if you had.
If I am mistaken, perhaps you could elaborate on your evolutionary training, and amend the errors in your earlier post.

By the way, I still don’t agree with you guys on burden of proof, but I’m not getting anywhere there, so I’ll try to provide some reasonable explanations for the existence of God, and I expect you’ll do the same for no God. Fair enough??

One of the best bits of evidence showing that there is no miraculous healing going on is the fact that amputees are never healed.
There are stories, but nothing substantiated.

I don’t think that belief in God is so extraordinary.

Suggesting that there is a god who created the universe and intervenes in people’s daily lives is a huge claim.
I would require huge evidence.

Somehow, I don’t think this would be anywhere near sufficient for you. If someone told you they saw the terraformed moon, you wouldn’t believe them. If they showed you pictures or video tape, you would think it was doctored. If they told you they had freely walked and lived on the moon with no breathing apparatus, you would say they had lost it. If they brought you plants from this moon, you would say they picked them from their backyard. You would actually have to fly to the moon yourself, pick some plants, and do some tests on them. Then you would probably say that someone cultivated them elsewhere, flew to the moon, and put them in the ground. You require proof, just as Thomas required proof and did not believe that Jesus was truly risen until he put his hand in Jesus’ wounds. The difference is that Thomas truly loved Jesus, whereas you appear to be just the opposite. God does provide proof if we really need it, but He also requires a genuine desire to know Him. So long as you despise Him, He will hide from you. Hate is incompatible with Love.

I think what you are trying to say here is that I have to believe before I will get the evidence.
Not very appealing to a reasonable man.

I am not sure it is really all that important to you. Much evidence has been provided – much more than just personal testimony – and you have discounted it all with a few strokes of the keyboard. If it were that important to you, you would have taken the time to do some honest research.

I think the best evidence just appeared right here. You provided it when you said that you have to want him to be real or you will never see any evidence.

 

[Brady_W]

.Even if they are incorrupt bodies, (so far they look like pieces, and not totally incorrupt) why does that suggest that there is a god? Why does it suggest a certain version of the bible is the right one? Why does it suggest that kissing the ring of an old man in a funny hat is memorable?
It suggests nothing about a god unless you already believe.

You know your probably right on the whole miracle thing. I dont think it would convince you, and thats probably why we don’t see God exercising large scale grand performances of His power. For instance, lets say for a second that you believed Jesus is God. Well He did perform extravagant miracles, and many of them. He convinced some, but the hard of heart crucified him, wherein he performed His ultimate miracle and rose from the dead, and many still didn’t believe. So some of you say that you would believe if we could get God to do something to prove Himself, well I think that history attests to the fact that you wouldn’t. But God has shown us enough of His power, he has left a long trail of miracles throughout history. There is enough evidence there to convince the person who is really looking for the truth. Who wants the truth and is willing to research and go find out for himself.

Pascals wager is a bad bet. I would think that if a god gave you the ability to reason, he would want you to use that ability and not just bet the safe way.

I agree, but its a starting point, God stoops to conquer.

And you are wrong about losing nothing. If you believe the bible, you might kill a child who curses their parents. That is far from nothing.

I disagree a considerable amount with this. For one, I don’t know where you got this idea of killing the child. I assume the bible. If you were Christian you’d know that the old law of the Old Testament is fulfilled in the new. Jesus tells us to love and pray for our enemies, not kill our children. He tells us to turn our cheek. Maybe you should look into the corporal works of mercy preached by Jesus. Or you could take a practical approach. History attests to the fact that Christendom is largely responsible for hospitals, schools, and many other forms of charity, because thats what Jesus told us to do.

 

[Brady_W]

A

I’m a little disappointed in you. I was simply trying to answer the question of why I’d search to believe if I were an Atheist. In my little example of evolution I was merely trying to state that that would be one of the questions I’d have. I was trying to be gracious to you, and put myself in your shoes, to see what I could come up with. And you respond by calling me a liar, because I was trying to answer a question in a scenario that I’m not even in. I don’t believe your request for more information on my study of evolution even requires a dignified response from me. In the future I’ll remember not to make this mistake again.

 

[Schultzz]

“Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, nothing more”.

It is my opinion that Atheism is the label that is given to those who choose not to believe in God. It is not the lack of belief in a God. It is a choice that some people make. I respect your right to make that choice. I have no intentions of trying to convince you to believe in my God. Sometime I wonder why you would hang out on a Catholic or Christian site such as this. But your presence here does not threaten me nor does it feed my spiritual need. I think everyone has a spiritual need and everyone has some sort of spirituality. So an Atheist makes choices in life as everyone else does. Perhaps it is this need to be fed spiritually which attracts Atheists to these sites. Oh by the way, spirituality has nothing to do with religion. Those who have developed their spirituality often find their choice of belief is enhanced by their ability to grow spiritually. So what is spirituality? It is something which defies definition, but which is experienced proportionally to the amount of time spent in the “present”. It is a relationship between our mind and our soul. It is something that comes from deep within us. Perhaps it is energy that is part of us because we are different from other animals. We have the ability to choose between right and wrong where animals choose from instinct. Many answers can be found by staying in the “present” and not in past or future thinking. I believe Oprah is having programs on spirituality with author, Eckard Tolle. These are also available on the net. By listening to these broadcasts one can learn something of how to obtain spirituality. So, that is my opinion, and if you don’t understand it or don’t believe it, you won’t bother me a bit. That is your choice.

 

[Brady_W]

Well I think I’m done with this thread. I was going to give a number of logical proofs for the existence of God, but I’m sure you’ve heard them all, and at any rate you wouldn’t listen anyway.

I came to spread the Word, but our conversations thus far have generated heat and not light.

I’m not sure why you’re here, on a Catholic Answers website either if your not looking for the truth.

Anyways good luck in your journey

God Bless,
Brady

 

[Aleii]

. But God has shown us enough of His power, he has left a long trail of miracles throughout history. There is enough evidence there to convince the person who is really looking for the truth. Who wants the truth and is willing to research and go find out for himself.

I don’t want miracles - you can find a “miracle” in practically every religion. I merely want god to talk to me and help me understand. I had a crisis of faith for over a decade, where I tried desperately to cling to Catholicism, and from the prayers, mass, devotions, retreats, and more, and all I got in return was silence, and more difficulty clinging to the faith. If it doesn’t make sense to me, my brain will not accept it, and I can not change that fact.

Pascals wager is a bad bet. I would think that if a god gave you the ability to reason, he would want you to use that ability and not just bet the safe way.

Pascal’s wager does not work - I can not choose to believe a blueberry is actually a cat, nor can I choose to believe in Zeus or Scientology, nor can I choose to believe the Catholic god is real. I have tried to force belief on myself to no avail. When I finally realized it was not a choice, but, a state of mind, I realized that continuing to call myself Catholic would be a lie.

“Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, nothing more”.

It is my opinion that Atheism is the label that is given to those who choose not to believe in God. It is not the lack of belief in a God. It is a choice that some people make. I respect your right to make that choice.

Can you choose to believe in Zeus, right now? If not, why? Because it doesn’t make sense to you. I don’t see how this is different from my lack of ability to choose to believe in the Catholic god, as it simply does not make logical sense to me anymore.

Well I think I’m done with this thread. I was going to give a number of logical proofs for the existence of God, but I’m sure you’ve heard them all, and at any rate you wouldn’t listen anyway.

I came to spread the Word, but our conversations thus far have generated heat and not light.

I’m not sure why you’re here, on a Catholic Answers website either if your not looking for the truth.

How about giving people the benefit of the doubt? A and others have been here through 4 massive threads. Were they not here to talk and listen, these threads would have died a long time ago.

 

[Brady_W]

Aleii,

I could give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they’d start to listen and not call me a liar, but like I said so far my discussions with them have generated heat not light, therefore, its time for me to stop.

I’m sorry about your crisis of faith, I had one myself when I entered college(much smaller than you I imagine, I just had some doubts). They can be scary. You know how I got over it? I didn’t, God got me over it. Once I quit demanding Him to reveal himself to me somehow, I understood we are here on His terms and not ours, and He will reveal himself when He deems appropriate and not us, its His will that is to be followed.

I wish you well on your journey, and I’ll pray for your reconversion.

God Bless,

Brady

 

[Brady_W]

Aleii,
I forgot, you didn’t perhaps read the book of Job during your crisis of faith did you? I would think that that would have been very beneficial, and probably still could be.

God bless,

Brady

 

[_A]

Well He did perform extravagant miracles, and many of them. He convinced some, but the hard of heart crucified him, wherein he performed His ultimate miracle and rose from the dead, and many still didn’t believe. So some of you say that you would believe if we could get God to do something to prove Himself, well I think that history attests to the fact that you wouldn’t.

This is called a story. It is about as far from fact as you can get. I could start quoting Harry Potter to you, but if you don’t believe it is true, it is also just a story.
There were no miracles. Every claim I have heard of is another example of people attributing the unknown to their personal belief about god.
I disagree a considerable amount with this. For one, I don’t know where you got this idea of killing the child.It is in your bible. If you are going to toss out some of it because someone said it was false, why not toss it all?

A

I’m a little disappointed in you. I was simply trying to answer the question of why I’d search to believe if I were an Atheist. In my little example of evolution I was merely trying to state that that would be one of the questions I’d have. I was trying to be gracious to you, and put myself in your shoes, to see what I could come up with. And you respond by calling me a liar, because I was trying to answer a question in a scenario that I’m not even in. I don’t believe your request for more information on my study of evolution even requires a dignified response from me. In the future I’ll remember not to make this mistake again.

You were quite wrong about the theory of evolution. That to me means that you don’t know very much about it. Perhaps you learned it from someone who seeks to refute it - I don’t know, but to suggest that diversity is not compatible with the theory is, to me, plenty of evidence that you don’t understand it.
No wonder you don’t want to talk more about it. How embarrassing.

“Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, nothing more”.

It is my opinion that Atheism is the label that is given to those who choose not to believe in God.

I think this was addressed well by another poster, so I will just ask if you have accepted Zeus into your life?

Well I think I’m done with this thread. I was going to give a number of logical proofs for the existence of God, but I’m sure you’ve heard them all, and at any rate you wouldn’t listen anyway.

Another person leaves just before we get proof. Wow, we sure missed out again.
Have you considered that there is no possible proof, and even a reasonable amount of evidence to support the notion of an invisible man in the sky has not been brought.
A few people have said that they refuse to share their evidence, though.
Funny that.

Once I quit demanding Him to reveal himself to me somehow, I understood we are here on His terms and not ours, and He will reveal himself when He deems appropriate and not us, its His will that is to be followed.

I guess as long as you don’t need to have evidence, it works quite well. Why worship a god who has no effect on this world?

Aleii,
I forgot, you didn’t perhaps read the book of Job during your crisis of faith did you? I would think that that would have been very beneficial, and probably still could be.

You mean the story about your god torturing a man just to show that he wont stop believing? Lovely story that. Would you do that to your child?

 

[LaMar]

Aleii,
I forgot, you didn’t perhaps read the book of Job during your crisis of faith did you? I would think that that would have been very beneficial, and probably still could be.

God bless,

Brady

The book of Job is really quite an interesting story.

junginstitute.org/pdf_files/JungV8N1p1-18.pdf

Read this and let me know what you think.

 

[Excelency]

“What about it? I didn’t answer because it is a poor question”

You refuse to answer because the question is too inconvenient. If that kind of dismisal works for you then it is doubtful that another ten thousand posts to this already bloated thread will answer your questions. How about some of my questions now. Is this the first religion you chose to assault or did you give the others equal air time? Did you come to the Catholic Church because you have correctly assumed that if God does exist, the Catholic Church is closest to him? No matter It should be clear by now that the angry prosecutor is not going to answer your questions. You would not go the the President of the United States this way, you would not go to the Prime Minister of England this way, why try to hunt down God this way? Try “seeking” him as a diplomat rather that calling for a dragnet as an inquisitor. You could not get to a head of state that way, why try to find the head of the Catholic Church this way?

 

[Schultzz]

“I think this was addressed well by another poster, so I will just ask if you have accepted Zeus into your life?”

Well I certainly can see why you feel the way you do. There certainly hasn’t been much of a good reason offered here thus far to help you make your decision. I don’t think you will find the proof you are seeking at this site. However, if you read Eckart Tolle’s book about living in the “Now”, you may get more of an insight into what people feel but cannot express. People quote scripture and what they profess, but most “proof” comes from God talking to your heart through an incident which He will confirm by some seemingly coincidence. Even if one prays to the bedsheets I believe a greater power will receive those petitions and you will recieve some kind of answer. So, the only “proof” we have is to get something back from our asking. Does this make any sense to you? If not perhaps you need to back off from all these responses which only seem to confuse the already confused.