I am an atheist thread 4

[Pier]

(Shaking dust, checking seeds)…

Enough pearls of precious time have been cast here -

Time to go

God bless!

 

[Pier]

Archaeologically speaking (pardon poor spelling) Christ won’t be found - He ascended into Heaven, bones and all.

But the bones of Peter are entombed at the Vatican, as per Christ’s decree.

Christ’s birthplace is also preserved, and I believe there are remnants of His Cross as well. :yup:

Feel free to check these facts out - I gotta go to work

 

[phooney]

Last time I looked, the Church wouldn’t let those bones of Peter be independently verified.

When I went to Rome there was another church that had the arm bones of Luke and Matthew, hair from the virgin Mary, and some thorns from the crown of thorns.

There was a time when these kinds of relics were extensively traded, but information regarding their verification is difficult to come by. However, as every claim made by theists must be presumed to be factual, we can deduce that Jesus and his disciples were some kind of hairy, multi-armed human-spider hybrids. Awesome.

Joking aside, if you can direct me to some information regarding your claims I would appreciate it. What tests have been peformed upon the cross pieces? Where are they? Who has verified the bones of Peter?

There’s also a pope on display in St Peter’s Basilica, (Pious X?? I can’t check as I’m at work, just about to finish my lunch break). An incorruptible, looking very corrupted.

I take it from your response you weren’t able to find any contemporary evidence of Jesus either

 

[_A]

A, I have the best male friends that I do not even deserve. You and I need several hours for me to explain this clearly to you. The males friends that I have tend to be introverts as I am sure you are.

I wish for you to substantiate this. If you can’t, I want you to tell me why you are making assumptions about when I am right here for you to ask.

Introverts are in the minority

Can you support this?

and basically they are internally driven by their creativity, intelligence and sensitivity. When an introvert male tries to fit in to the general population he finds that he cannot fit in like others. It is difficult to have superficial conversations with others and he normally lives in a highly anxious state thinking there is something wrong with him.

You are making a whale of a lot of assertions about me here. Back them up or stop it. I am right here where you can ask me.

Our faith is fact. To say that it isn’t, would be like me saying your love for your mother was not a fact, which I’m not saying it is, but you get my point…

I misspoke. I meant that what you have faith in can not properly be treated as fact. I mean really - talking snakes? Go ahead and believe it if you like, but don’t present it as if it were fact. It is quite dishonest.

What “foul old prejudices”? Do speak up.

Just one is the hatred of Jews which was rampant in Catholocism for years, but the prejudice against women would be a suitable jumping-off point, too.

And that is no more than your opinion, which you are indeed entitled to, and apparently believe to be an unerring truth - but believing it doesn’t necessarily make it so, which is (basically) exactly what you keep telling us (Catholics)…

I am correct, it is a book. That it is more than a book would be for a believer to demonstrate. If you believe that it is more than a book, why not present your case?

Which means that one of us is right, and one of us is wrong.

Since I am not the one pretending that myths are fact, I am going to keep betting on me (unless I see sufficient evidence, that is)

errr… not quite sure what you want to discuss in this thread but…

raises hand

I’m an atheist

Welcome, let me take your hat! Are you a ‘weak’ or ‘strong’ atheist?

I think I know what you’re trying to get at, and I agree with the fundamentals of it. Perhaps Ronald E was trying to say that women can love unselfishly more easily, because of their nature. (Ronald, jump in anytime if you think I’m out to lunch.)

Wait a second - I do. Try this. Say, women*, men and children* can love unselfishly, then I will stop thinking this is offensive. There are quite feminine men and very masculine women out there.

Myself, I do believe that men and women are equally capable of having caring qualities, but I also believe they are wired differently, and that they complement each other. I think it is awesome!

If by wired you mean skeletal structures or other biological bits, then I am with you. (also find it awesome!)

I’m sure some have (the Peanut gallery), but I would definitely not say most. There’s this crazy thing about Christians that compels them to spread the Good News, and most don’t just come to an atheist thread to toss peanuts at the atheists and run. Most come because they care, and are interested in how atheists “tick”.

I have enjoyed the overwhelming majority of visitors here. You know, I might just have enjoyed all of them.

You’re a good sport, A. (If you’re being serious, that is…)

Yup, I mean it. Remember what I said about trying to make this topic easier to discuss? That kind of reminder really helps me stay on track.

True believers truly believe that what they believe is true.

I misspoke, as I noted above. I fear that the answer I gave will be lost in a tangent, but I can wait for it to rise again.

Archaeologically speaking (pardon poor spelling) Christ won’t be found - He ascended into Heaven, bones and all.

Where is this ‘Heaven’ you speak of? I know ascended means ‘up’, but why don’t you be a little more specific.

But the bones of Peter are entombed at the Vatican, as per Christ’s decree.

Where is this decree from someone named ‘Christ’? Can I examine the original document? Or was this ‘Christ’ guy an illiterate desert nomad who people wrote stories about decades after he was supposed to have lived?

Christ’s birthplace is also preserved, and I believe there are remnants of His Cross as well. :yup:

You believe, this I already knew. Why do you capitalize ‘Cross’? Is it because, like many of the graven images Catholics stand in front of praying and wishing you kind of idolize it?

Feel free to check these facts out - I gotta go to work

Facts? Okay, lets get some facts. There were not any here…

 

[Ronald_E]

A, I am going to work in a few minutes. All I know is I have observed introverts, myself included, and the general definition of introversion in webster’s is limited and wrong. I was assuming you are an introvert by your general tone of passion towards discovering truth and your sensitivity to my comments that do not fit in to your belief system.
Like I said earlier, introverts are internally driven in the sense that they tend to be more self aware and have an instinctive morality that tends to influence them to be more aware of how they may affect others. They also tend to be more aware of how human beings harm one another.
Introversion leads one to search for meaning that is beyond fitting in to what is considered becoming a productive member of society.
Introverts have a passion to be heard, not so much for honor or recognition. Rather, they seem to passionately want their truth to be understood.
I have to go now. Have a good one. I love being an introvert who is free to explore and express what comes to me. I am not inhibited in face to face encounters because I know who I am now.
I do not have to prove myself and only express myself through the motivation of love for others. When I am angry in my response truth is lost.

 

[_A]

…the general definition of introversion in webster’s is limited and wrong.

Well as long as we are not using the dictionary definitions for words, we might as well be talking different languages. I am going to make a bold suggestion - use the same language as everyone else in the conversation. It may aid understanding. Have a good day at work.

 

[teri74]

Hi Teri,

The people that really interest me a lot are those who have been through Hell and back, and somehow come out of it all to be the most kind and compassionate and forgiving people. …Which you kind of alluded to above.

Armor of God: I am new at this posting thing! I hope I did this right this time! I am interested in these kind of people as well. More thoughts below.

There are people (of all ages) who have had great pain and adversity in their lives and despite all these experiences have come out the other side with a spirit about them that encompasses the epitome of kindness, love, and understanding of others. Yet others who might experience the same become bitter, angry souls. The fact is that there are no two people exactly alike. How I react to my experiences in life will be different from how someone else reacts because we are not the same. I have to ask myself if I could truly explain to another person the full depth of why I believe in God. I don’t think that is possible. There is something however; that I could say is a big part of why. It has come from studying people, who have lived through horrific suffering, illness, persecution, etc., (in today’s world and in throughout history) and when you look into their eyes they shine brightly, compassion and warmth for humankind resonate from them and they bring comfort and joy to those that they touch. These are people who don’t care about material things, because their hearts and minds are full of all that they need to bring them happiness. What I see in them is not the sum of an equation or a recipe for happiness drawn from the pages of a self help book.

When I asked for feedback regarding the human spirit, where it comes from, what makes it strong or weak, good or evil, I was thinking in terms of how it is so difficult for humans to comprehend what is not tangible or what cannot be proven by history or scientific measure, as in faith in God for instance. I was once what I would call a “follower” of the Christian faith rather that a true believer. What changed me was a series of experiences unique to me. At one time I might have been considered one of those people that had gone through some bad times and ended up bitter and unhappy. How interesting that the basis for my spiritual renewal came from witnessing or reading about those who had gone through similar trials, but had survived and even more, who had been able to break through the trappings of their pain and effect change upon the world. I can’t prove to anyone that I am a changed person, but I am. I have no explanation for the many wonderful things that have changed my life that just came out of no where. If I can be open everyday to the possibilities of new experiences, accept my life as it is today and people in it just as they are, focus on the richness of life, and try to give back more than I receive, I feel peaceful and happy. In letting go, it seems the universe unfolds as it should.

May you find joy today by the touch of a stranger.

Teri

 

[phooney]

To think, you had a pretty good start in:

The fact is that there are no two people exactly alike.

and then inserted a god into the gaps. Why do you look at the people that managed to make it through adversity and become stronger people and count it as something that points towards god, and ignore the people that didn’t make it?

If those success stories are somehow evidence for god, then the failiures are negations of that evidence, again showing god, if such a thing exists, to act in a normal distribution as you would expect from random chance.

Alternatively, if the success stories are evidence of gods goodness, the failiures are evidence of gods evilness. Let’s look at the whole picture at least.

 

[phooney]

Well as long as we are not using the dictionary definitions for words, we might as well be talking different languages. I am going to make a bold suggestion - use the same language as everyone else in the conversation. It may aid understanding. Have a good day at work.

I have to agree with him on that one, A, there are many instances where dictionary definitions are inadequate. They aren’t an authority on what words mean, they usually give common usages, and they are of course open to the influence of their own bias.

English is a living language, and as such is dynamic. Some words require more explaining than what can be done in the limited space in a dictionary as well. As long as he can justify and explain the usage of his words then it should be fine.

I mean, just look at what many dictionaries have under the heading of “Atheism”

 

[teri74]

To think, you had a pretty good start in:

and then inserted a god into the gaps. Why do you look at the people that managed to make it through adversity and become stronger people and count it as something that points towards god, and ignore the people that didn’t make it?

If those success stories are somehow evidence for god, then the failiures are negations of that evidence, again showing god, if such a thing exists, to act in a normal distribution as you would expect from random chance.

Alternatively, if the success stories are evidence of gods goodness, the failiures are evidence of gods evilness. Let’s look at the whole picture at least.

Phooney–You misunderstand…I don’t count anyone out!! I shared my experience which is mine alone. Success stories (as you put them) in my opinion, are just as personal as mine and could come from any source that moved a person to see things in a different way. I have been moved to see things in a different way by observing those who have a great human spirit. It inspires me. Maybe some other random person who had grown bitter by what life had dealt them will will begin to see things differently by having another experience. Perhaps the greatest beauty of the individuals that have made a difference in my life is that they don’t waste time judging people by if they are Christians or Athiests or bums or Wall Street tycoons. When they look (or looked) at people they are just people, not something to be catagorized.

I don’t like the success/failure picture. I’ll respond more later on this one.

Teri

 

[Ronald_E]

Well as long as we are not using the dictionary definitions for words, we might as well be talking different languages. I am going to make a bold suggestion - use the same language as everyone else in the conversation. It may aid understanding. Have a good day at work.

A, Just as you do not believe in someone’s belief in God, I do not believe in definitions applied to human beings. I rebel against using the same definition of a word that limits the understanding of a human being; uust as I rebel against using psychiatric diagnoses as the only criteria to understand someone’s suffering. We cannot begin to understand the universe without understanding the relationship of one object to another object. So, I will make statements that come from my observation that seem to be a foreign language. Now does that make my observation incorrect? I do not want to think like the masses and observe like the masses no matter what their particular orientation is.
I rebel against conformity!
P. S. …with as much love as I can muster at the time of rebellion.

 

[Ronald_E]

I have to agree with him on that one, A, there are many instances where dictionary definitions are inadequate. They aren’t an authority on what words mean, they usually give common usages, and they are of course open to the influence of their own bias.

English is a living language, and as such is dynamic. Some words require more explaining than what can be done in the limited space in a dictionary as well. As long as he can justify and explain the usage of his words then it should be fine.

I mean, just look at what many dictionaries have under the heading of “Atheism”

Phooney, Are we two photons from the same atom of calcium?

 

[phooney]

Phooney, Are we two photons from the same atom of calcium?

insert vague physics reference here

 

[Ronald_E]

insert vague physics reference here

Vague is beautiful. I do not know who said this but I said to one of my friends back in '78 that happiness is determined by one’s tolerance for ambiguity.

 

[phooney]

Vague is beautiful. I do not know who said this but I said to one of my friends back in '78 that happiness is determined by one’s tolerance for ambiguity.

Sounds like people saying “I don’t know” a bit more would make the world a happier place, eh?

Let’s try it… does god exist?

 

[Ronald_E]

Sounds like people saying “I don’t know” a bit more would make the world a happier place, eh?

Let’s try it… does god exist?

Some believe yes and some believe no. And some hold out for any possibility.
As one enlightened person once said “…can’t we all get along?!”
Now I must go and hurt the grass and kill flowers that my mother taught me were weeds.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Wait a second - I do.

I’m taking this to mean that you think I’m out to lunch. Actually, I was only asking for Ronald E’s opinion on my interpretation of the idea he was presenting. Ah well, I suppose I’ll take your opinion on the actual idea…

Try this. Say, women*, men and children* can love unselfishly, then I will stop thinking this is offensive. There are quite feminine men and very masculine women out there.

Yes, women, men, and children are all capable of loving unselfishly. So, Ronald E. was making a generalization. I don’t see why acknowledging some traits that seem to be more dominant in men automatically implies a weakness or deficit in women, or vice versa. You know, I think kids love the most unselfishly of all! Doesn’t offend me a bit.

If by wired you mean skeletal structures or other biological bits, then I am with you. (also find it awesome!)

Come on, you know what I mean. That’s not wiring, that’s the walls, insulation, and roof.

I have enjoyed the overwhelming majority of visitors here. You know, I might just have enjoyed all of them.

Even CalmDown?

Yup, I mean it. Remember what I said about trying to make this topic easier to discuss? That kind of reminder really helps me stay on track.

No, honestly, I don’t remember at all. Fill me in?

 

[Ronald_E]

Can I be sure you exist even if you tell me you do?
Are you out there or in here?

 

[teri74]

Can I be sure you exist even if you tell me you do?
Are you out there or in here?

Ronald E:

It just hit me! This could all be a vast consipracy! I could be sending out all these thoughts to a computer generated responder with no brain. No, on second thought… no computer could come up with these responses. The folks are really brillient thinkers! Didn’t someone once say that the exchange of differing ideas is a catalyst for growth?

Teri

 

[Pier]

Sounds like people saying “I don’t know” a bit more would make the world a happier place, eh?

Let’s try it… does god exist?

Absolutely!

Sorry phooney, but I don’t doubt His existence at all.