I am an atheist thread 4

[_A]

All of the hijackers that I am aware of in mainstream society are fully grown, powerful people with malicious intent, usually packing a weapon or two. I have not heard of any babies who have forced their way into a woman’s womb.

You are trying to offer this clump of cells the same rights as any other person, right?
Why should anyone, even a freshly fertilized egg (if that is when you believe that your god inserts a soul) have the right to suck the life out of someone else? If a child is in the hospital in need of a kidney transplant, and you are a match, should you be forced to give that child your self so that it can live?

 

[LaMar]

You are trying to offer this clump of cells the same rights as any other person, right?
Why should anyone, even a freshly fertilized egg (if that is when you believe that your god inserts a soul) have the right to suck the life out of someone else? If a child is in the hospital in need of a kidney transplant, and you are a match, should you be forced to give that child your self so that it can live?

That’s a great point. Not just give the person his kidney, but suppose you woke up one morning to find that someone was attached to you, like a siamese twin, using your organs to sustain himself.

“It’ll only be for 9 months” says the person.

No big deal, right?

 

[_A]

A, you missed answering this part.

Is there a certain point in time or development where the lump of cells turns into a human? If so, when would you estimate that takes place?

Sorry about that, AofG. I think as soon as the ‘person’ is able to survive on it’s own (i.e.- not dependent on one others’ specific human body to survive). I guess I would say at ‘adoption-age’. I know this isn’t a very exact answer, but it is the best I can do with a difficult question.

 

[_A]

What get’s me is that it is easy to say that you want this clump of cells to have rights, but rights nearly always come with responsibilities.
It would be unethical to attach yourself to someone against their will, just to aid your own survival.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Sorry about that, AofG. I think as soon as the ‘person’ is able to survive on it’s own (i.e.- not dependent on one others’ specific human body to survive). I guess I would say at ‘adoption-age’. I know this isn’t a very exact answer, but it is the best I can do with a difficult question.

So, up until then, what species would it be? Would you call it Homo clumpofcellsicus? Or would you consider it maybe a distant relative of the Homo genus?

 

[_A]

So, up until then, what species would it be? Would you call it Homo clumpofcellsicus? Or would you consider it maybe a distant relative of the Homo genus?

It is an irrelevant question. Many fertilized eggs are aborted by the female body automatically. What species are those? Do you think last rites should be performed each time?(if you think they are human, I mean)

 

[lkddav]

So, up until then, what species would it be? Would you call it Homo clumpofcellsicus? Or would you consider it maybe a distant relative of the Homo genus?

Hello AoG

At the moment of conception, human DNA starts to form. This is a scientific fact.

At what point that becomes a life is what has always been debated. I personally think after 6 weeks it is past the point of being a clump of cells. It is a life, not a potential for life. With that said, I believe it is still the womans choice what to do with it. It is apart of HER body.

les

 

[Ronald_E]

Hello AoG

At the moment of conception, human DNA starts to form. This is a scientific fact.

At what point that becomes a life is what has always been debated. I personally think after 6 weeks it is past the point of being a clump of cells. It is a life, not a potential for life. With that said, I believe it is still the womans choice what to do with it. It is apart of HER body.

les

The clump of cells are living and is human life in its very beginning. How we think about those cells seems to be a function of what we are conditioned to believe.
If we look at the animal world and other mammals we see the mother doing everything necessary to nurture the life in her and outside of her. As humans we have that same limbic brain that creates that bond. Reptiles do not have that limbic brain and consequently, that bond is not as strong, yet they still create an environment that gives life the chance to develop.
What is it about us humans that demands we have the freedom of choice to nurture life in the womb or to end life in the womb?
Could this be another thread?

 

[lkddav]

The clump of cells are living and is human life in its very beginning.

Yes, a clump of cells with the potential for life.

How we think about those cells seems to be a function of what we are conditioned to believe.

Sadly, some are “conditioned” to value a clump of cells as more important than a woman’s life and happiness.

If we look at the animal world and other mammals we see the mother doing everything necessary to nurture the life in her and outside of her. As humans we have that same limbic brain that creates that bond. Reptiles do not have that limbic brain and consequently, that bond is not as strong, yet they still create an environment that gives life the chance to develop.

I don’t know this to be entirely true. Sources please.

What is it about us humans that demands we have the freedom of choice to nurture life in the womb or to end life in the womb?

.
Simple answer… Because we can. We get to exercise that right because we are on top of the food chain.

les

 

[_A]

The clump of cells are living and is human life in its very beginning.

The sperm and the egg are human life - even before they meet. Why pick the moment of conception as the starting point of life? That makes the sewer system the biggest abortion machine anywhere!

If we look at the animal world and other mammals we see the mother doing everything necessary to nurture the life in her and outside of her. As humans we have that same limbic brain that creates that bond. Reptiles do not have that limbic brain and consequently, that bond is not as strong, yet they still create an environment that gives life the chance to develop.
What is it about us humans that demands we have the freedom of choice to nurture life in the womb or to end life in the womb?
Could this be another thread?

We have this freedom for the same reason that we have the freedom to shelter ourselves from the rain - in a Bentley if that is what we choose. We have this freedom for the same reason anyone has any freedom.
We take it.

Why do you insist on giving this possible new human ‘person’ rights without demanding ‘person’ responsibilities?

Yes, a clump of cells with the potential for life.

lkddav, I think you are mis-speaking here. Each cell is alive - the egg and sperm are too. Why is it that the moment these meet is chosen by some, and the moment it attaches to the womb wall is chosen by others as the time when ‘human life begins’. What nonsense.
‘Human life’ refers to more than just the biological entity. It points directly at rights. These rights are not without their responsibilities. When you give someone the right to ‘bear arms’, they are responsible to do so responsibly, or have that right removed. The same thing applies to the notion of ‘right to life’. The phrase itself is nonsense. If you disagree, just think of what a man drowning in the middle of a lake, with no hope of rescue must think of his ‘right to life’. Does he complain of his rights as the waters flow in and sink him?
He has no right to life. He has the opportunity to fight for it.
The same goes for everyone. If you are not able to fight another breath into your lungs, odds are, you are going to stop. If you cannot summon the will to feed yourself, you will starve.
If I have no right to hijack your kidney when I am vulnerable, then the same goes for the unborn. Why should they have different (and better!) human rights than everyone else?

Is it possible that the various churches take this position to assure membership increases through births within the religious community?

 

[Ronald_E]

I do not know how to respond yet to individual quotes in the same message. I do not have time to learn.
I will make a statement here that women get abortions basically because they are afraid because they know that men are not trustworthy to help them in raising and caring for the child. Look at the divorce rate.
Do we validate women by telling them that it is okay to get an abortion and imply that their basic biological nature is an inconvenience at best, especially when we want sex.
Cells are living and a human clump of cells are living human cells.
As far as giving you sources about animal behavior, you look it up. I have done my homework.
Being on top of the food chain indicates very little understanding about a meaningful life.

 

[teri74]

Thank you for your post, Teri - I see you have put a lot of thought into it. I am glad your life has taken a turn for the better!

Armor of God…Thank you for your reply. I enjoy reading your thoughtful posts here!!

Teri

 

[_A]

I do not know how to respond yet to individual quotes in the same message. I do not have time to learn.
I will make a statement here that women get abortions basically because they are afraid because they know that men are not trustworthy to help them in raising and caring for the child. Look at the divorce rate.

Could you cite sources? Or are you just pulling that out of your…personal experience?
Women get abortions for many reasons - all of them acceptable.
You want to blame men again, but I don’t hate men, so my response is more reasonable. You might want to remember this bias as it affects your thinking so much.

Do we validate women by telling them that it is okay to get an abortion and imply that their basic biological nature is an inconvenience at best, especially when we want sex.
Cells are living and a human clump of cells are living human cells.

So what? The last time you deposited something in the toilet it likely included living cells.
If the blastocyst is a real person, why not saddle it with the responsibilities of being a person - i.e. do not force someone else to share their organs with you.

As far as giving you sources about animal behavior, you look it up. I have done my homework.

So you are willing to make claims, but not back them up? I wish you would reconsider. The person who asked this was about to learn something from you.

Being on top of the food chain indicates very little understanding about a meaningful life.

What does this statement even mean? Are you really suggesting that someone on top of the food chain can not understand a meaningful life?

 

[Pier]

Are you really suggesting that someone on top of the food chain can not understand a meaningful life?

Aren’t your statements proving just that?

Hmmm, and would passing laws allowing us to conveniently kill ourselves off keep us at the top? Methinks we’re too stoopid to stay there, if that’s the case, as in the future we would no longer exist.

 

[Ronald_E]

A, Who runs the world? Men or women? Who has set up the social system that we must adjust to in our development? Who has the most freedom to compete for success in that system? Who carries the responsibility to raise children in that system?
The male brain is competitive in its basic animal structure and it wants to dominate. Females are then faced with adjusting to the system that the male brain has developed to achieve goals in this system.
Use your reasoning and observational power to look at history and the reality that both women and men are born into. Use your motto that the universe is a better bible. By the way where are your sources for that statement? Bad Ron just came out with that last statement.
I hope you have a good day today.

 

[_A]

Aren’t your statements proving just that?

No, why would you say such a thing? Why not present your proof instead of just hinting. I think what you have is an opinion.

Hmmm, and would passing laws allowing us to conveniently kill ourselves off keep us at the top?

The laws are already passed. We are still at the top. Your god did not do a thing about it. Oh, and if you look at Nicaragua, where the RC’s get their way with respect to abortion, do you think they have it better than the more advanced countries? Do you really think that forcing a 12 year old rape victim to carry her rapists baby to term is a great way to organize laws?

Methinks we’re too stoopid to stay there,

Speak for yourself.

A, Who runs the world? Men or women? Who has set up the social system that we must adjust to in our development? Who has the most freedom to compete for success in that system? Who carries the responsibility to raise children in that system?

Why are you asking a bunch of irrelevant questions without answering mine? I want to know why a embryo ‘person’ has the right to force someone to share their organs while a non-embryo person has not.
Is it just because the church wants more parishoners? Is unchecked population growth a reasonable course from your perspective? After you force a woman to nurture an embryo into a child she doesn’t want, will you take responsibility to raise that child? How many have you adopted so far?

See, I can ask a bunch of questions, too.

Want to address my point instead of dodging it in favour of this brand of rhetoric?

The male brain is competitive in its basic animal structure and it wants to dominate. Females are then faced with adjusting to the system that the male brain has developed to achieve goals in this system.

Is the female brain so different from the male? If so, could you display sources, or are we just supposed to believe you?
I know that when trying to identify bones, the pelvis is looked at to determine gender. To me this suggests that the brain is not a different shape…are these differences just in your ‘studies’ which you wont share?

Use your reasoning and observational power to look at history and the reality that both women and men are born into.

I do use reasoning and observation. That is what led me to stop believing in much nonsense. Alien abduction, astrology, Scientology and Catholocism along with many others.
I was going to suggest that YOU use your observational powers. Then I realized it would be suggesting that you did not, and I don’t want to reduce this to insults. Let’s both try, Okay?

Use your motto that the universe is a better bible. By the way where are your sources for that statement?

I have reason, and Catholic doctrine which led to that statement.
Let me elaborate.
It is Catholic belief that YHWH (or whatever name he uses) created the universe. Time, space and fire ants - every bit.
Then some men wrote a bible.
Now, why would any Catholic in his right mind accept the bible over the universe? The bible was made by man, and is approximately that fallible. The universe was made by your god (how fallible is he supposed to be?)
If you believe that your god made the universe, then it has much more authority than a book written by mere men.

I hope you have a good day today.

Me too. I also hope that you have a good day.

 

[lkddav]

lkddav, I think you are mis-speaking here. Each cell is alive - the egg and sperm are too. Why is it that the moment these meet is chosen by some, and the moment it attaches to the womb wall is chosen by others as the time when ‘human life begins’. What nonsense.
‘Human life’ refers to more than just the biological entity. It points directly at rights. These rights are not without their responsibilities. When you give someone the right to ‘bear arms’, they are responsible to do so responsibly, or have that right removed. The same thing applies to the notion of ‘right to life’. The phrase itself is nonsense. If you disagree, just think of what a man drowning in the middle of a lake, with no hope of rescue must think of his ‘right to life’. Does he complain of his rights as the waters flow in and sink him?
He has no right to life. He has the opportunity to fight for it.
The same goes for everyone. If you are not able to fight another breath into your lungs, odds are, you are going to stop. If you cannot summon the will to feed yourself, you will starve.
If I have no right to hijack your kidney when I am vulnerable, then the same goes for the unborn. Why should they have different (and better!) human rights than everyone else?

Hello A

Yes, I understand what you are saying, I will have to agree.

Is it possible that the various churches take this position to assure membership increases through births within the religious community?

Off course !

les

 

[_A]

Off course !

les

Yes, it was a little off course, thank you for the admonition. I do wish to keep things civil.

 

[lkddav]

Yes, it was a little off course, thank you for the admonition. I do wish to keep things civil.

LOL.

Actually I meant to say " of course".

les

 

[_A]

I am quite surprised that no-one has even attempted to answer the abortion argument that I made…