I am an atheist thread 4

[_A]

Actually A, if you take a look at your language you will see a lot of emotion if you are honest with yourself. The arguments you make are not logical and are based on resistance to a logical process of deduction.

Far from it. You still have not answered my main point, and you continue to evade it. I am not surprised, since oppressing women is such a long-standing Catholic tradition that the practitioners don’t even notice.

A child in the womb does not compare to a person outside the womb who wants something from someone else.

You are correct here. A full person, fully developed has a lot more to defend than an embryo.

What you also do is take my points out of context and highlight them to defend your point.

You still have not addressed my main point. I am just pointing out the illogic and unsupported claims you have made.

If someone is starving my responsibility is to feed them.

Then you must be a busy person. There are still people starving. Did you have dinner? Did everyone?

Intelligence without a prior belief about a fetus can only conclude what I have stated about the fetus being human.

I don’t agree that it is a person, but if it is, it should have the same rights as a person - not extra rights. It should also have the same responsibilities as a person. You have not shown otherwise.

Did you know that abortion was started by a white woman back in the 40’s as a way of preventing the black race from becoming too populated.

I am certain that there were abortions before then. There have been abortions for as long as there have been pregnancies. The vast majority of human conceptions end in abortion - and most of the time the woman doesn’t even know.

I know you are going to ask me for a reference. I do not have it, but you can look up the history of abortion on the internet.

It is nonsense, as I pointed out.

Your belief that the unborn child is a parasite is extremely emotionally charged with resistance and I think you should look into this because it really distorts your perception. I say this out of deep respect for you because I enjoy this little bit of time to discuss these topics.

The developing embryo fits the description of a parasite quite well. Where do you think it doesn’t fit?

Truth can only be known when there is no difference between the observer and the observed.

This nonsense statement barely deserves recognition, but I will say that your idea of truth means that all of science has no truth to it.
However, your computer still works.
I think you have to change your understanding of truth.

Prove to me that the clump of cells is not human when it contains all the DNA that we contain

My point is that if it is human, then it has the same responsibilities as any other human.
Can you address that point instead of dodging into an emotive and false history of abortion?

 

[Armor_of_God]

If the woman decides on abortion the ‘baby’ never is. In fact, at the early stage that most abortions take place, there is little more than a lump of cells. Calling it a ‘baby’ is just another way of demonizing women who make this choice.

From what I have been able to find in the statistics for the US, the majority of abortions take place between 7 – 8 weeks of gestation. The information I found for Canada indicates the majority of abortions occur between 9 – 12 weeks.

The lump of cells ranges from this:

http://www.pregnancy.org//images/articles/7weeks300x485.jpg
(7 weeks)

http://www.pregnancy.org/images/pregnancy/pregnancycalendar/8week500.jpg
(8 weeks)

To this:

http://www.pregnancy.org/images/pregnancy/pregnancycalendar/10wks500.jpg
(10 weeks)

http://www.cpcsimi.com/images/fig02legs11.jpg
(11 weeks)

http://www.pregnancy.org/images/pregnancy/pregnancycalendar/12week500.jpg
(12 weeks)

http://www.cpcsimi.com/images/fig06hand12.jpg
(12 weeks)

 

[Armor_of_God]

Sorry, I made a mistake in my posting above and accidentally labelled the 10 week picture as 8 weeks.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Here is a picture taken at 8 weeks:

http://www.cpcsimi.com/images/fig16baby8.jpg

 

[Ronald_E]

Here is a picture taken at 8 weeks:

http://www.cpcsimi.com/images/fig16baby8.jpg

AoG, What more needs to be said. You are a very skilled researcher and rational thinker. The pictures require no prior belief to understand. Belief makes the infant a parasite. Truth shows us the infant as human. To deny its humanity is to live in a world that has no depth of understanding and only looks at reality with a the influence of unresolved hostility.
Thanks for the beautiful truth!

 

[_A]

A—
Honestly, I don’t want to enter into this conversation because in my opinion there will be no end to it and I would rather be involved in discussions where there is more comfort in the understanding of differing opinions. I just want to make two small points from my perspective.

I must admit that it sounds like there is no reason which will affect your belief, right or wrong.

As a mother, if my child were starving, I would do absolutely ANYTHING, including steal to feed her/him.

What if a poor bit of planning left her pregnant at fifteen and terrified. What if she desperately wanted an abortion? Would you help her get one, and help her get through it with the minimum of pain, or would you continue to lay Catholic guilt on her?

By the way, I would do anything for my daughters, too. I understand.

Now, please don’t get all spun up and read something into this statement that isn’t there. The only point here is that life isn’t as cut and dried and you are trying to make it. In the extreme situations as discribed above, and in all decisions of importance made in life, personalities, feelings, and emotions creep in. I really can’t think of anything in life that can be neatly put into a box, except a gift that is wrapped.

That is why boxed answers for all, or rules carved in stone are stupid choices to govern dynamic and changing societies. I guess that is why even Catholics ignore the inconvenient commandments.

As to your statement about Catholics using “their emotive language and a ridiculous belief in a god to justify their position” you have now put Catholics in a box.

I didn’t box them, but their belief certainly has.

I am not a Catholic, and am an emotional person.

I too, have emotions. I also try to make my decisions with reason, even if it goes against my ‘feelings’

Most people that I know use how the feel about things, what their emotions are about issues to justify their point. You seem pretty good at doing the same thing. I think you are very good expressing yourself and I read what you say intently. I don’t always agree, but sometimes I do. However, if I don’t agree with you, I don’t think to myself, “what he has to say is just rediculous, must be because he is an athiest.”

The belief in the god of the bible is ridiculous though. Thinking that there is an invisible man in the sky watching everyone so intently that he knows about their sexual habits and diet? Not only ridiculous, but ridiculously arrogant.

Ok…fire away…I will answer, but I can’t set at my computer for long due to pain.

I recommend adaptive technologies to allow you to enjoy the computer longer, and pain-free.

It’s a beautiful Friday here…hope it is where you are!!

Teri

It is, happy Friday

Here is a picture taken at 8 weeks:

http://www.cpcsimi.com/images/fig16baby8.jpg

Note what the diagrams you posted do not acknowledge, AofG. They say nothing about the woman who is giving this tiny creature life.
Again, if you ignore the fact that women are persons who have rights it is easy to get support for the fetus.
If you want to save the ones which are aborted, why not find a way to implant the aborted fetuses into priests, who could then carry them to term?
You have not justified how it is okay for one person to use anothers organs against their will. Can you?

 

[Ronald_E]

I must admit that it sounds like there is no reason which will affect your belief, right or wrong.
What if a poor bit of planning left her pregnant at fifteen and terrified. What if she desperately wanted an abortion? Would you help her get one, and help her get through it with the minimum of pain, or would you continue to lay Catholic guilt on her?

By the way, I would do anything for my daughters, too. I understand. That is why boxed answers for all, or rules carved in stone are stupid choices to govern dynamic and changing societies. I guess that is why even Catholics ignore the inconvenient commandments.I didn’t box them, but their belief certainly has.I too, have emotions. I also try to make my decisions with reason, even if it goes against my 'feelings’The belief in the god of the bible is ridiculous though. Thinking that there is an invisible man in the sky watching everyone so intently that he knows about their sexual habits and diet? Not only ridiculous, but ridiculously arrogant.I recommend adaptive technologies to allow you to enjoy the computer longer, and pain-free.It is, happy Friday

Note what the diagrams you posted do not acknowledge, AofG. They say nothing about the woman who is giving this tiny creature life.
Again, if you ignore the fact that women are persons who have rights it is easy to get support for the fetus.
If you want to save the ones which are aborted, why not find a way to implant the aborted fetuses into priests, who could then carry them to term?
You have not justified how it is okay for one person to use anothers organs against their will. Can you?

A, my sister was pregnant at 15 and my parents asked me to take her to get an abortion 34 years ago and I did. She still feels the pain. I have seen many woman with the same effect of an abortion. The woman’s body is made to support life and to have an abortion is in opposition to her natural way of being. There is no getting around natural law. Death is natural. To intentionally end the life of the developing baby is unnatural. If you do not look any deeper into what causes this unnatural act then you cannot see what I see. Guilt is not Catholic. Guilt occurs within the individual who is in opposition to natural order. Your apparent hostility is the classic example of one who defends himself against guilt. It is a classic defense mechanism.
I am only saying this because I was where you are. I have said the same things you have. I hope you receive this with openness and the respect I do have for you. There does seem to be a deeper issue that you have not shared which seems to harden you to understanding what we are trying to convey.

 

[_A]

A, my sister was pregnant at 15 and my parents asked me to take her to get an abortion 34 years ago and I did. She still feels the pain. I have seen many woman with the same effect of an abortion.

I have known several women who say that having an abortion was the best thing they could have done.
Now that we have each shared a worthless anecdote, can you address my original point?

The woman’s body is made to support life and to have an abortion is in opposition to her natural way of being.

Women naturally self-abort more often than they conceive. How do you figure that out?

There is no getting around natural law. Death is natural. To intentionally end the life of the developing baby is unnatural. If you do not look any deeper into what causes this unnatural act then you cannot see what I see.

I can not see what you see because I am not blinded by a belief in a frigntening, threatening beast who tortures his enemies for eternity, not even letting them die.
If you can dispense with the irrational beliefs and deal in facts, you will see that you have not been able to answer that point because there is no answer that would support you. It is always wrong for a human to make that kind of demand on another human.
If a human decides to give this gift of a warm womb to grow in, that is, I will agree one of the most beautiful gifts I can think of.
It becomes slavery when you force a woman to give that gift, and it cheapens it, in my opinion.

Guilt is not Catholic.

Guilt is used in the indoctrination of the young by the catholic systems. Children are made to feel guilty for everything from masturbation to impure thoughts.

Your apparent hostility is the classic example of one who defends himself against guilt. It is a classic defense mechanism.

Your accusing me of being hostile just because I continually insist that you answer my main point and present facts instead of belief is also a classic defense mechanism.
Insistence is not hostility. Perhaps you overstated the case.

I am only saying this because I was where you are.

You somehow think that because you think you have had my experiences you know better now? I can say this for certain. You have presented no evidence here which would make a rational person believe in a god, yet you do believe. I suggest that I was once where you are, though I was barely old enough to remember.

There does seem to be a deeper issue that you have not shared which seems to harden you to understanding what we are trying to convey.

I see that you are going to continue to make these ad hominim attacks instead of addressing my points. I will take that to mean that you have no answer worth presenting here.

 

[Armor_of_God]

It is an irrelevant question.

I think my question about species was relevant, as you had indicated by your earlier answer that there was a certain point where the lump of cells became a human. You and I appear to agree that it is some kind of living being. So, I just wanted to know how you would classify it, as I am aware of your deep respect for proper science.

Many fertilized eggs are aborted by the female body automatically. What species are those? Do you think last rites should be performed each time?(if you think they are human, I mean)

The fertilized eggs are Homo sapiens. There is a world of difference between people dying naturally and someone else deliberately taking their life away.

As for last rites, yes, if we are aware of naturally aborted embryos, I think we should acknowledge them and grieve.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Sadly, some are “conditioned” to value a clump of cells as more important than a woman’s life and happiness.

Les,

Have you read the studies on the link between abortion and suicide in women? Please check this out:

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47705

afterabortion.info/news/suicide205.html

 

[Armor_of_God]

The sperm and the egg are human life - even before they meet. Why pick the moment of conception as the starting point of life?

The difference is that at conception, this life now has all the necessary ingredients that make it a unique human being.

When you give someone the right to ‘bear arms’, they are responsible to do so responsibly, or have that right removed. The same thing applies to the notion of ‘right to life’. The phrase itself is nonsense. If you disagree, just think of what a man drowning in the middle of a lake, with no hope of rescue must think of his ‘right to life’. Does he complain of his rights as the waters flow in and sink him?
He has no right to life. He has the opportunity to fight for it.

What “right to life” means in this scenario is that this man has the right to reasonably expect that someone isn’t going to throw him in the water or hold him under so that he drowns. Events that occur naturally or accidentally that take a life cannot be compared to deliberate actions to eliminate a human life.

 

[teri74]

I must admit that it sounds like there is no reason which will affect your belief, right or wrong.
What if a poor bit of planning left her pregnant at fifteen and terrified. What if she desperately wanted an abortion? Would you help her get one, and help her get through it with the minimum of pain, or would you continue to lay Catholic guilt on her?

 

[Ronald_E]

QUOTE]I can not see what you see because I am not blinded by a belief in a frigntening, threatening beast who tortures his enemies for eternity, not even letting them die.
A, I don’t believe in that god either. Men created that god. God is love. God exists through all and in all. The freer we are from conflict, internal and external, the more possibility exists for knowing God. Belief one way or the other is the old way of blind faith or rebellion against belief which is just a reaction based on conflict. Blind faith did not appeal to me. Rebellion against what I was taught about God was a start. However, my rebellion included my guilt I had internalized from the instruction I received from others who taught me in a disposition of rigidity and lack of love.
If God is love then everything that is not love is not God. Do you want to start with that delusional observation and go from there?
By the way I think I am getting closer to learning how to use this godless mechanism to communicate. My reaction to this computer system, I just discovered, is one of distress because I do not understand how it works, thus, I am frustrated. The more I learn about how it works the better I feel about it.
If I misunderstand this mechanism, it is a cause of frustration. If someone teaches me in a kind manner, like you did, and I still do not understand, I am still motivated to learn. If someone tells me I am a dumb " ", then I am much more likely to reject it and give up and go elsewhere. Just random thoughts being expressed here.
A, Did you ever see the movie St. Ralph?

 

[Pier]

QUOTE]I can not see what you see because I am not blinded by a belief in a frigntening, threatening beast who tortures his enemies for eternity, not even letting them die.

A, I don’t believe in that god either. Men created that god. God is love. God exists through all and in all. The freer we are from conflict, internal and external, the more possibility exists for knowing God. Belief one way or the other is the old way of blind faith or rebellion against belief which is just a reaction based on conflict. Blind faith did not appeal to me. Rebellion against what I was taught about God was a start. However, my rebellion included my guilt I had internalized from the instruction I received from others who taught me in a disposition of rigidity and lack of love.
If God is love then everything that is not love is not God. Do you want to start with that delusional observation and go from there?
By the way I think I am getting closer to learning how to use this godless mechanism to communicate. My reaction to this computer system, I just discovered, is one of distress because I do not understand how it works, thus, I am frustrated. The more I learn about how it works the better I feel about it.
If I misunderstand this mechanism, it is a cause of frustration. If someone teaches me in a kind manner, like you did, and I still do not understand, I am still motivated to learn. If someone tells me I am a dumb " ", then I am much more likely to reject it and give up and go elsewhere. Just random thoughts being expressed here.
A, Did you ever see the movie St. Ralph?

Hi Ronald,

Put the bracket in front of the word QUOTE at the top…

You have to enclose each quoted paragraph at the beginning and end of the quote…

You’re doing great!

PS: Good morning, A…

Happy Saturday!

 

[peary]

What’s that old saying again? For those without Faith, no explanation is possible. For those with Faith, no explanation is necessary.

 

[_A]

I think my question about species was relevant…snip…as I am aware of your deep respect for proper science.

The reason that I said it was an irrelevant question is that I have been accepting, for the moment, that the fetus is human from the moment of conception. If you want to get sticky about proper science, the sperm and egg are also human life. Have you ever has a funeral for a nocturnal emission?
Anyway, if the growing fetus is ‘a person’, what gives it the right to force life-support off another person?
That question has not been addressed satisfactorily.

The fertilized eggs are Homo sapiens.

As are the unfertilized eggs.

There is a world of difference between people dying naturally and someone else deliberately taking their life away.

Forcing someone to carry a fetus to term is taking their life away.

As for last rites, yes, if we are aware of naturally aborted embryos,

Is the same true for all the sperms and eggs which are not coupled? If not, why not? They are certainly human life.

What “right to life” means in this scenario is that this man has the right to reasonably expect that someone isn’t going to throw him in the water…

So the fetus pulled out of the womb is in the same position as a man drowning in the middle of a lake - if he can’t find a way to breathe for himself, then he doesn’t have a ‘right to life’ (I still say it is a nonsense phrase)

One of my daughters did get pregnant at 16…snip…I didn’t lay any guilt on her.

Why do you think she hid it? Do you think it is because of the shame the Catholic Church assigns to that act? I do. It sounds like you two have a loving relationship and uncommonly open communication. So why did she wait to tell you? As I said, I think it is because of the way everyone around her frowns on it. You said yourself that you wouldn’t take her to get one.

That approach might work for me if I were purchasing stock, but most of the decisions I make are much more personal than that.

You apply this same internal sense to the commandments, ignoring the most horrible ones. This is what demonstrates that you don’t get your morality from the bible, or the god who supposedly commissioned it.

Just a question because I really don’t know…Do atheists you know also speak about God in these same terms?

Most people are afraid to say what they really think about the various gods when adherents are present. I am sometimes in the same position. (though less often all the time!). It is mainly because theists have a history of violence in support of their beliefs. Remember what Catholics used to do to heretics and apostates?

When I read these words it just strikes me that there is a difference between not believing in something and just saying “I don’t believe” and on the opposite end of the spectrum just hammering away at a something in a demeanor that seems almost mean spirited.

It seems mean-spirited, but I am simply referring to what is written in your beastly bible, and how it conflicts with reality. If I believed it, I guess I would think it mean of someone to dispel the myth, too.

Thank you for the recommendation, unfortunately, I think the only adaptation that would help at the moment is a new body. Although I am a believer, I am not expecting to wake up with one in the morning!

In the bible, it says that if you believe, god will answer your prayers. Either you don’t think you really believe, or you don’t believe the bible.
If your god can ignore your sincere prayers, how is he so different from a god that doesn’t exist?
Can you tell me any measurable difference between your god and an invention that has no reality?

I can not see what you see because I am not blinded by a belief in a frigntening, threatening beast who tortures his enemies for eternity, not even letting them die.

If you would give a firm and falsifiable hypothesis of your god, I think it would be relatively simply to prove that it was nonsense. The way you describe it, however, is so slippery that nothing *could *contradict it. The results would be the same if what you say was true, and if the god you believe in was imaginary.

If God is love then everything that is not love is not God. Do you want to start with that delusional observation and go from there?

Nope, if you are going to try to convince me that your god is real, the first thing which I will require is a firm definition. Something falsifiable, or I will think you are just trying to snow me, okay?

QUOTE]By the way I think I am getting closer to learning how to use this godless mechanism to communicate. …snip… A, Did you ever see the movie St. Ralph?

I haven’t seen that flick. If the notes that the other helpful poster don’t help you to get the quote thing straightened out, I would suggest PM’ing me (or someone ) about how, with some quotes attempted in it, than I can correct it and send it back. When you get it back you can quote it, then look at the formatting to piece it together.
The only other way I can think of is through windows live assistance (which would involve you opening up your computer too much, probably)

What’s that old saying again? For those without Faith, no explanation is possible. For those with Faith, no explanation is necessary.

For those with faith, no explanation would get through. They believe not only in the absence of evidence, but in the face of contradictory evidence.

 

[Armor_of_God]

Before medical advances made it clean and relatively harmless, women simply suicided instead.

The suicide part hasn’t changed.

bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7070/1431?ijkey=o2njWBDkmGz5

afterabortion.info/news/suicide205.html

When you realize that women are people with rights, we can get a lot further.

Likewise regarding the one in the womb.

 

[Armor_of_God]

After you force a woman to nurture an embryo into a child she doesn’t want, will you take responsibility to raise that child? How many have you adopted so far?

A, if you are so concerned about women not being burdened by children, why don’t you change careers and become an abortionist? For free?

It is Catholic belief that YHWH (or whatever name he uses) created the universe. Time, space and fire ants - every bit.
Then some men wrote a bible.
Now, why would any Catholic in his right mind accept the bible over the universe? The bible was made by man, and is approximately that fallible. The universe was made by your god (how fallible is he supposed to be?)
If you believe that your god made the universe, then it has much more authority than a book written by mere men.

The trouble is, A, Christians don’t use the Bible to learn about physics or economics or biology. They use the Bible for learning about God, salvation history, and how to live a Christian life.

 

[phooney]

Some Christians do

 

[_A]

The suicide part hasn’t changed.

bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/313/7070/1431?ijkey=o2njWBDkmGz5

afterabortion.info/news/suicide205.html

Likewise regarding the one in the womb.

Thanks for dodging my main point. Does the guilt that Catholics pour onto everyone end in suicides?

A, if you are so concerned about women not being burdened by children, why don’t you change careers and become an abortionist? For free?

I offer couseling, and various supports for people and yes, that includes a ride to the hospital to get an abortion, and occasionally finding a young woman a place to live, because her parents kick her out when they discover that she had one.
I help in every way that I can, including asking questions of those who would interfere with the inside of another persons body. That is what you are doing when you condemn abortion. It is none of your business unless it is your own womb.
If your god thinks that it is wrong, he can do something about it himself (unless he is imaginary, that is, then parishioners would need to do it)

The trouble is, A, Christians don’t use the Bible to learn about physics or economics or biology. They use the Bible for learning about God, salvation history, and how to live a Christian life.

No, they use it (when convenient) to learn about matters of science (stem cell research comes to mind).
If more people took their morality from the bible, what do you think would happen to children who curse their parents?
Do you approve of what the bible says to do, or is that one of the places where you ignore it because it wasn’t printed in the right colour, or in the right page?

Some Christians do

I disagree…most adherents don’t read the bible, they just sing along with it…
I sing along with a song by Eminem. One of the lines is ‘you only get one shot/do not miss your chance’. What utter baloney! I sang it, and sometimes even felt…empathy for the position of the character in the song. Then, after a few years, I thought about it. You get many chances. Every single day you get several chances to ‘glow’.
Didn’t stop me from singing along for awhile until I thought about it.
This is what people do with the bible, they sing along uncritically, but when you tell them to kill their children when the kids curse them, they come to their senses and say something about that part of the bible not being literal.