I am an atheist thread 5

[Hislittlelady]

Originally Posted by phooney
continued @ Hislittlelady

I guess he must like conflict a lot Proof for everybody would eliminate religious boundaries between people.

I don’t think he wants conflict. I think He wants our love. Wish I could back up my statement with proof, but sad to say I cannot. Just something I know and want to share.​

Funnily enough I just saw on the bbc news website today that there is going to be a clinical trial of 1,500 cardiac arrest patients whereby there are going to be pictures placed on high shelves in resuscitation rooms that could only be seen from the ceiling, so if the people have a near death experience and are able to come back and describe the pictures it will constitute as some evidence towards the ‘mind’ or ‘soul’ or whatever you want to call it being able to exist separate from the body. I just hope those doing the study are very careful about the security of just what is on the photos. If the doctors or patients are aware of the trial it opens itself wide for cheating and bias and would render it useless for rational purposes

This has already been proven as explained in a previous post of mine. I love this particular study of the NDE. Maybe this is my weak faith, but even then, I know God is there. We fall and stumble along the way, so I do try and stay away from these kinds of studies. It’s an insult to the Lord. But, maybe it isn’t. Maybe He’s helping those with weak faith to help their unbelief.

---

Unfortunately, personal (and apparently contradictory) revelations are anecdotal at best as far as evidence goes, and I struggle to fathom why a perfect all powerful all knowing being would choose this method of communication to the human race. Sure this entity may have its reasons, and if it exists would by definition be smarter than me, but I can demonstrate many different methods that disperse knowledge quicker and leave less doubt as to the originator of that communication, and I am but an imperfect human.

Ah, our first agreement. So true, why would an all powerful Creator choose such a method, but then who are we to question. Were we there when he made the heavens and the earth? I certainly wish he would send us a little more proof then he has, which is mostly based on faith, which by the way, is a hard journey. But, not all the time. I have prayed with such a power in me that it cannot come from any other place but by way of the Holy Spirit. I feel my soul lifted to heaven. Keep laughing. I know you are. That’s okay. I understand.:knight1:​

“Please do not put too much stock in this. It may be believable to a point, maybe some are, but we must be very cautious as to the tricks of satan. He works through this type of experience.”

What other experiences would you classify in this ‘type’ ?

Many other ways too. Mediumship, psychics, tarot readings, star gazers etc. etc. and the list goes on. Very dangerous practice. We open ourselves to the forces of evil through these means and must flee from them. This is why I don’t understand John Edwards one bit. He professes to be a Catholic, and yet He knows he’s not supposed to be doing what he does, but continues. He’s defying God’s command. I’m sure he no doubt has some sort of gift of communication with those on the other side, but who is he really speaking with? We cannot know. There are evil forces beyond the veil.

To be continued

 

[Hislittlelady]

“If you’d like my advice I’d say get down upon your knees before the Holy Crucifix of the Lord and He will work mighty miracles in your heart, your soul and your life.”

Just so I can be clear, we’re talking about Poseidon, right? If the crucifix is that thing King Minos’ wife had made, I’m not getting on my knees anywhere near it

:tsktsk: :nope: God is not mocked. Careful! One day every knee shall bend before Him. Each and every man will stand before His throne in Judgment. I’d love for your name to be in the Book of the Lamb.​

I have noticed that religion really tries to capitalise on people when they are desperate. It’s very sad the situation he is in, and I have heard too many people tell me how comforting it is to “know” that there is a god out there looking after you.

However, what is comforting has no significant correlation to what is true and is not a reliable benchmark for that purpose. I’m very sorry to hear about your daughter as well, I’m sure you find it very comforting to think that if you behave in a particular way you’ll be able to see her and have a conversation with her again. I myself would like to speak to my Grandpa a few more times, but I can’t. I wish I knew of a way for you to keep that comfort and derive your beliefs through a rational method. However, as you have clearly put effort into attempting to convert people to your religion, and I think that an evidential, as opposed to faith, basis for beliefs is one of the important steps that humanity as a whole must take, I feel I need to challenge your claims.

Make no mistake. You will see your grandpa again. Don’t doubt that for one minute. Pray and learn of Him who loves us more then we’ll ever imagine. God is so merciful. We were made to worship Him. Please believe me.
Lord let me be your light!​

I have noticed that religion really tries to capitalise on people when they are desperate. It’s very sad the situation he is in, and I have heard too many people tell me how comforting it is to “know” that there is a god out there looking after you.

This is where that saying came from that there are no atheists in fox holes. I found this out first hand. I was never an atheist but a very poor Catholic witness. I basically never gave God a thought…UNTIL tragedy struck me. I fell down upon my knees. God called me and I heard Him. I even now feel his mighty arms around me, sheltering me under his wings. My God is a mighty God. Praise His name forever and ever.​

I’m very sorry to hear about your daughter as well, I’m sure you find it very comforting to think that if you behave in a particular way you’ll be able to see her and have a conversation with her again. I myself would like to speak to my Grandpa a few more times, but I can’t. I wish I knew of a way for you to keep that comfort and derive your beliefs through a rational method.

You are very kind. God love you. Faith has no rationality. It is simply faith because God told us in His Word, which was written by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we know this because He told us this was how it would be. Also, doesn’t it seem odd that no other name has lived on and brought billions of people down through the ages, to Jesus Christ? In the face of persecutions, martyrdom, tortures among many other things, still His name lives as the one true Holy God. If it weren’t so, wouldn’t this have died out by now? I would imagine people eventually would say, this is tiresome, life is too torturous, so let’s drop this whole "God business’. It’s simply not true. This has not happened. Instead, Christianity is growing in leaps and bounds. More and more people are coming to the Lord. You say desperation? Yes, it could seem that way, but I still say more to it then meets the eye. There are so many testimonies out there of people’s experiences and how God has healed their lives. He is calling each one of us. This is the total truth of the matter.​

I quite like your writing style, and I think you’re probably not as simple as you described yourself!

Simple, yes! Simpleton, No! I’m not highly educated but love discussions such as this one, done with respect and honor. I wouldn’t even attempt to convert you LOL. God has to do that, but who knows, he uses people as his instruments, and maybe my dialogue or someone else’s could be an instrument he uses. I’d say probably someone with more knowledge then I have, but it doesn’t matter who he uses. He will do as he will do. The main thing is that He is at work.

---

“Also the heart has ears. It’s unmistakable.”

It’s no good appealing to my heart, it is only a pump

LOL.

 

[Hislittlelady]

God actually spoke to them in person back in those days. Don’t we wish!"

Has god’s power diminished lately or something? Why not more personal visits? This is just a bald assertion anyway.

How I wish. Nope. He doesn’t do this. Who knows why, but I think by now our Lord has just about had it with the evils of mankind. May He forgive everyone that has committed such horrendous evils against mankind. We will see him. If not right now, we will when we cross over, and if we’re still here upon His return, Wow!! That’s all I can say. Oh the glory of His presence. He will come like thunder in the sky. The clouds will roll back and the angels will blow trumpets coming down from heaven. Every knee shall bend. I will stand in awe of Him. He will be brighter then the sun.

:bowdown: :getholy:

I did my very best in trying to keep up with you. You’re scientific and my responses might be a little below your intellectual level, but they are still my thoughts and my faith and I respect yours as well. I know someday He will make Himself known to all those that cannot believe. He wants to save every single one of His children. We are all the sheep of the Good Shepherd, both inside His fold and outside of His fold. We still belong to him.

It’s been fun, at least for me. I enjoyed our discussion and appreciate that we can agree to disagree. I’m still going to pray for you that you will one day abide in Him as He will abide in you, whether you like it or not! That’s that!!!

His Little Lady and Catholic Daughter of the Faith

 

[Thing]

_A_:

I don’t love any of the imaginary characters from bible class, and I have found plenty of good reasons.

That sounds like a ridiculous system, prime for abuse.
I think reciprocal altruism has it beat hollow (it IS how we humans have survived thousands of years before the bible claims a violent madman in the sky created us)

What are the good reasons you don’t like them?

 

[notself]

It is evidence to say either way: God works, or meditation/self-hypnosis/etc. works.

Just not proof, either way.

Here is a link about Loving Kindness Meditation and its effect on the brain and personality. It is an article published in “Science Daily”.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080326204236.htm

Here are some snips from the article.

Can we train ourselves to be compassionate? A new study suggests the answer is yes. Cultivating compassion and kindness through meditation affects brain regions that can make a person more empathetic to other peoples’ mental states, say researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison…

The scans revealed that brain circuits used to detect emotions and feelings were dramatically changed in subjects who had extensive experience practicing compassion meditation.

The research suggests that individuals - from children who may engage in bullying to people prone to recurring depression - and society in general could benefit from such meditative practices, says study director Richard Davidson, professor of psychiatry and psychology at UW-Madison and an expert on imaging the effects of meditation. Davidson and UW-Madison associate scientist Antoine Lutz were co-principal investigators on the project.

Although one study using an MRI and experienced Buddhist meditators does not rise to the level of Proof, more experiments of this nature are in process at various universities.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4613759.stm

livescience.com/health/070629_naming_emotions.html

 

[phooney]

@HisLittleLady

Hi there,

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I’ve been very busy at work and then went camping for a week = no internet access!

I see A’s account is still under review, I wonder what is taking so long? Anyway, here is my response to your last posts.

“I’ve read this experience in a number of books regarding people out of body seeing something way above the ceiling on a light fixture. I’ve read more then one experience like this. These people told these things to the medical staff and it was already PROVEN.”

No, it clearly was not. The circumstances under which the anecdotal evidence was obtained was far too uncontrolled to be taken seriously, which is why I expressed my concerns regarding the security about the details of what was to be on the pictures near the ceiling in the new study. It has to be double-blind to remove some of the avenues for personal bias and personal motives.

"I think God just gave me a message for you. As I was sitting here I’m listening the the EWTN channel which is the Catholic eternal word network channel, and a priest just said that “God chases after people who keep running from him, but he hides himself from those that seek him.”

This would directly contradict everything that any other christian has said to me on the matter. Regardless, I am not specifically seeking or running away from God, I don’t think. I find the topic interesting, obviously, but I’m happy to just go wherever the evidence leads. Thus far, all of the things that have been presented to me as evidence that I have had the time to read and digest I have found to be either logically fallacious, poorly tested, or purely anecdotal.

“How Great Thou Art!”

Thank you! Too kind

“Well, here comes the science again. You no doubt have an IQ of 160 plus. That’s actually kind of a detriment. You people with these IQ’s, are so busy studying the where’s and why’s, that you’ve never had the vision to see what’s right before your eyes. Don’t you see that God is challenging you? That’s why he gave you that kind of brain and me my kind of brain. I have no doubt that He is using all of us to to come to the same conclusions about God’s existence, using your high intelligence against my simple faith. We shall see!”

Nope, I wish my IQ was that high, but I have to read and re-read things a lot and muddle my way through lots of books rather than going from one genius “Eureka!” moment to another! I see the analogy you are trying to make here though, like looking too closely at a TV screen, all you will see are little dots of different colours, it is the person who doesn’t examine it closely that sees the picture. However, why confine oneself to just looking at things ‘closely’ or from ‘far away’ there’s no restriction to doing both. I can taste table salt just like anybody else, but I also know that each unit of salt is an ionic compound consisting of one sodium ion (Na+) and one chlorine ion (Cl-) and they bond due to electromagnetism and the outer layers of the former atoms ‘seeked’ a more stable state and thus gained/lost an electron to do so according to the second law of thermodynamics.

There’s only so much we can explain by analogy though!

"I can believe evolution. I have my own theories but of course to someone of your scientific mind, it will seem silly, but I think I’ll tell it anyway. You can laugh if you’d like, but it still could be something to think about as silly as it sounds to you. Did it ever occur to anyone, that since most of us believe in Adam and Eve and the sin committed in the garden,why couldn’t it be that when Adam and Eve were tossed out, remember they were very beautiful, made in God’s perfect image, that they were stripped of all their beauty and every other good thing as well, and thus evolved early man. Pretty ugly I’d say! I sometimes imagine this to be the missing link.
That’s how the matter of evolution and faith meet right in the middle. "

Er… maybe, but they would have been ejected from the garden into an already existing ecosystem and an already existing population of proto-humans, they would have been genetically almost idential to the rest of the population and any claim they had to being the first humans would be purely arbitrary. The first humans had parents and you wouldn’t have called them a different species if you observed them side by side. ‘Ugly’ is subjective as well.

“but show me what a ‘mind’ looks like. Aha! Got you on that one. You want to see what God looks like. I believe we have a mind sight unseen! I wonder if science will ever be able to show us ‘the mind.’ yet there it is within us. God is not mocked”

Odd, I don’t feel like I’ve been “got”. I can’t show you a mind, I can’t show you a magnetic field, all we can show are the effects and associated phenomena of one or the other. For example, I repeat every mind we have discerned so far has been accompanied by a brain.

“I’d love to see this. I’m waiting to see science create a human that they make from nothing, nada, zilch, zero, something they create from absolutely nowhere or what we perceive as nowhere.”

And go against the first law of thermodynamics? These are amongst the most heavily tested theories around, and thus are as close to iron-clad as a scientific theory can get, so I hope you aren’t holding your breath while you wait

 

[phooney]

continued@HisLittleLady

“Cannot argue these points. Still mysterious to science and I’m waiting for their proof that God does not exist. So far I see some scientists leaning toward creative design. Other then that, I can say nothing here for lack of knowledge on matters of science.”

The only evidence you could give for something that doesn’t exist is a lack of evidence for it. Everything that doesn’t exist, also does not have evidence for it. It is not possible to prove a universal negative, another reason why the burden of proof is on the side of the claimant. I also don’t have any evidence against the existence of Uni-the-universe-creating-unicorn, but that doesn’t mean I believe in it in the meantime.

“I also ask where did the ‘nothing’ come from? God is the Master Artist.”

I don’t think we can be speaking of the same ‘nothing’ then. ‘Nothing’ can’t come from anywhere, because then it would have a property, if it has a property then isn’t it ‘something’? Aaaaaanyway… putting god in all the gaps in knowledge is a losing strategy, long term.

“The big bang was the “Breath of God.” In other words, he blew the entire universe into existance. Then he created man. I know you’re laughing and I hear you. Proof is something I doubt we’ll ever have. Who can even begin to comprehend infinity? Wow. An awesome thought. God is infinite.”

You’re overstating what the evidence tells us on this matter, pure and simple.

Also, if I may break your last statements down into syllogistic logic:

p1: No humans can begin to comprehend the infinite
p2: God is infinite
c : No humans can begin to comprehend God

I don’t think you’ll be happy with this, so you’ll have to amend what you say on this matter I think!

“Well, maybe it’s not actual proof, but can you even imagine God up in His Kingdom, which we would call heaven, laughing at them.”

Sure… I can imagine it, and so can you.

“So true, why would an all powerful Creator choose such a method, but then who are we to question. Were we there when he made the heavens and the earth?”

But was a god there, and if so do we have evidence for it? That’s what we’re trying to figure out here.

" God is not mocked. Careful! One day every knee shall bend before Him. Each and every man will stand before His throne in Judgment. I’d love for your name to be in the Book of the Lamb."

God, or the concept of god is mocked all the time. Also, I’d rather my name was in the Book of the Pizza, if we’re allowed to choose.

“Make no mistake. You will see your grandpa again. Don’t doubt that for one minute. Pray and learn of Him who loves us more then we’ll ever imagine. God is so merciful. We were made to worship Him. Please believe me.
Lord let me be your light!”

Well, I’m not sure what the christian mythos says in regards to souls in hell being able to take some time out to chat with each other, but that particular Grandpa was an athiest as well. Truths presented with evidence don’t need to say “please”.

“This is where that saying came from that there are no atheists in fox holes. I found this out first hand. I was never an atheist but a very poor Catholic witness. I basically never gave God a thought…UNTIL tragedy struck me. I fell down upon my knees. God called me and I heard Him. I even now feel his mighty arms around me, sheltering me under his wings. My God is a mighty God. Praise His name forever and ever.”

There are atheists in fox holes though. I looked on the Richard Dawkins forums quite some time ago and there is an entire section on there called “There are atheists in fox holes” for atheists serving their various countries in the armed services to discuss and dispel that myth. Just think, if there is no god, you made it through that tragedy all on your own power and perhaps with the support of family and friends, and maybe professional help as well, I don’t know your circumstances, they are your own private affair.

“Faith has no rationality. It is simply faith because God told us in His Word, which was written by men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we know this because He told us this was how it would be.”

God told you in his word, written by men inspired by the holy spirit, presumably you are talking about one or more particular versions of the bible. And where, outside the bible, did God tell you that this is how it would be?

“Also, doesn’t it seem odd that no other name has lived on and brought billions of people down through the ages, to Jesus Christ?”

Argument from popularity? Lots of other names live on from even older times, and lots of people have maintained lots of different faiths in the face of persecutions, martyrdom, tortures, etc.

 

[phooney]

continued@HisLittleLady

"If it weren’t so, wouldn’t this have died out by now? I would imagine people eventually would say, this is tiresome, life is too torturous, so let’s drop this whole “God business’. It’s simply not true. This has not happened. Instead, Christianity is growing in leaps and bounds. More and more people are coming to the Lord”

Well, not neccesarily. There’s always that comfort factor that makes it an attractive option, and there are massive, wealthy organisations who campaign to keep that “God business” going. Then there are the mere ‘cultural christians’ (and equivalents in other religions as well). To give an example of that, 80+% of people in the UK apparently describe themselves as christian of one kind or another, but only 10% of the population attends church regularly. Sure, Catholic numbers may be going up, but not really as much as I imagine you would hope in terms of percentage of the world population. People who describe themselves as atheist/agnostic/don’t know/don’t care/secular humanist/none are certainly on the increase as far as that statistic is concerned, particularly among the more educated and the young. Also, I always try to be quite wary of statistics, there’s a lot to consider in these cases. For example, when quoting catholic numbers are all the children of Catholic parents counted? Or is it just after first holy communion? Or is it after the confirmation? Or is it only counted if the confirmation is done after the age of 16? 18? I suspect the numbers gathered would vary quite drastically with these conditions.

 

[Hislittlelady]

@HisLittleLady

Part I

No, it clearly was not. The circumstances under which the anecdotal evidence was obtained was far too uncontrolled to be taken seriously, which is why I expressed my concerns regarding the security about the details of what was to be on the pictures near the ceiling in the new study. It has to be double-blind to remove some of the avenues for personal bias and personal motives.

This evidence from the view at the ceiling in the NDE was validated by the doctors and hospital staff. No one had knowledge or even noticed a light that high up on the ceiling and when they sent a janitor up there, exactly what this patient described was exactly what was there next to that light. I doubt this was concocted by this very sick woman and the janitor, so what else could it be called, if not evidence, or at best something that sounded very authentic. I’m sorry I can’t remember what it was that she saw up there by the light fixture.

:tiphat:
…

This would directly contradict everything that any other christian has said to me on the matter. Regardless, I am not specifically seeking or running away from God, I don’t think. I find the topic interesting, obviously, but I’m happy to just go wherever the evidence leads. Thus far, all of the things that have been presented to me as evidence that I have had the time to read and digest I have found to be either logically fallacious, poorly tested, or purely anecdotal.

You are so right, but first I’ll say I’m not intellectual enough and definitely not of a scientific mind, so how can I really present my case in a scientific manner? I’m butting heads with someone who gives fantastic arguments, but they simply cannot sway me in any possible way. That is true what I said though, whether you want to believe it or not. God does dog your every step. He’s calling you but you do not have the ears to hear him. This is why you say there’s no evidence, because your heart is closed to him. One must first open the heart, and the ears of the spirit, and then, and only then, will you hear his call

:getholy:
…
Thank you! Too kind

:doh2: No, Not you and I know you are toying with me, but no matter, I will proceed.
How Great Thou Art is for my beautiful Lord and Savior. We all have a long way to be called great, with our sinfulness and weak wills. You must realize we are works in progress. He is the Potter and we are the Clay. We are each a unique creation of His. In fact, He has stated that He knew us before we were born. He knit us fearfully together in our mother’s womb. Of course I’m well aware this is falling upon deaf ears, but I’m still going to follow where the spirit leads no matter what. Then it’s between you and our dear Loving Lord. I am merely His instrument which I asked him if he would use me. He said ‘Yes’. He never fails me.


…

Nope, I wish my IQ was that high, but I have to read and re-read things a lot and muddle my way through lots of books rather than going from one genius “Eureka!” moment to another! I see the analogy you are trying to make here though, like looking too closely at a TV screen, all you will see are little dots of different colours, it is the person who doesn’t examine it closely that sees the picture. However, why confine oneself to just looking at things ‘closely’ or from ‘far away’ there’s no restriction to doing both. I can taste table salt just like anybody else, but I also know that each unit of salt is an ionic compound consisting of one sodium ion (Na+) and one chlorine ion (Cl-) and they bond due to electromagnetism and the outer layers of the former atoms ‘seeked’ a more stable state and thus gained/lost an electron to do so according to the second law of thermodynamics.
there’s only so much we can explain by analogy though!

Oh boy, here comes the science again. Didn’t I tell you that science and God do go hand in hand, but there is somewhat of a difference too. While God created everything (science), including stars, planets and space etc., this is an issue based on scripure which started from many thousands of years ago, with the Jews. At this point, science can neither prove nor disapprove that there is a God. I think God wanted it this way. He wants people to debate and in that way it makes them seek further.That’s only my own thinking. He said "I stand at the door and knock (the door of our heart)… He further said if we open the door He will come in and abide in us and we in Him. It makes lots of sense to me at least. We do find the truth though, without disputing and debating, and it’s when we turn our heart over to Jesus, the Lord and Savior of all mankind, including you. Do you want to spend eternity with the damned in hell? Now now, I can see your wheels turning. Don’t scoff. There is a heaven and a hell.
…

but I’m happy to just go wherever the evidence leads.

Praise you Jesus. One day this straying sheep will come home to your fold. I ask this in the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen

I shall return as time permits to further our discussion. Lots of responsibilities in my life and I could sit here from now till forever, but sadly I must get offline for a bit. I can’t wait to continue. I’m not giving up on you. But even more then that, God is not giving up. He never will till the day you draw your last breath.

Thank you Jesus
:bowdown2:

 

[Hislittlelady]

@HisLittleLady

Part II

Er… maybe, but they would have been ejected from the garden into an already existing ecosystem and an already existing population of proto-humans, they would have been genetically almost idential to the rest of the population and any claim they had to being the first humans would be purely arbitrary. The first humans had parents and you wouldn’t have called them a different species if you observed them side by side. ‘Ugly’ is subjective as well.

How do you figure this? If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then there were no other people. They hadn’t had children yet if you recall Genesis. When they were thrown out of the garden, then they had children. So I think Adam and Eve might have already taken on he appearance of cave people. Of course you would call it arbitrary as to whether they were the first humans or not since this is from scripture, not science. There is that missing link that no one has yet found. I wonder if they ever will? Anyway, according to scripture, Adam and Eve were alone on the earth until they produced the first humans (possibly cavemen appearing humans). All speculation.
:juggle:

Odd, I don’t feel like I’ve been “got”. I can’t show you a mind, I can’t show you a magnetic field, all we can show are the effects and associated phenomena of one or the other. For example, I repeat every mind we have discerned so far has been accompanied by a brain.

Yes I agree. The mind and brain are connected in some mysterious way which is under study at this time. There is a doctor who is studying this named Dr. Parnia. I recently read this in the paper. A highly interesting study. The brain is matter, but the mind is who knows what! Maybe spirit or part of spirit?


And go against the first law of thermodynamics? These are amongst the most heavily tested theories around, and thus are as close to iron-clad as a scientific theory can get, so I hope you aren’t holding your breath while you wait

I have no need to hold my breath. I trust my Lord and Savior and that’s all I really need. I just find these type of studies very interesting and awe inspiring. Everything on this earth is a search for God, otherwise why bother?
:ehh:

I shall return at some point to check up and see where else this conversation will lead. I will try and reply to the remainder of your post at my earliest convenience.

Although I have no perfect answers, neither does an atheist. It’s all a matter of faith. Remember Jesus is knocking. Open the door to him and you will be more blessed then you can even imagine.

See ya

:angel1:

 

[phooney]

@HisLittleLady

“I doubt this was concocted by this very sick woman and the janitor, so what else could it be called, if not evidence, or at best something that sounded very authentic. I’m sorry I can’t remember what it was that she saw up there by the light fixture.”

That’s fine, my points stand though, as you haven’t attempted to address them.

“I’m butting heads with someone who gives fantastic arguments, but they simply cannot sway me in any possible way.”

That’s the problem with faith.

“This is why you say there’s no evidence, because your heart is closed to him. One must first open the heart, and the ears of the spirit, and then, and only then, will you hear his call”

Again, I tell you there is no point in appealing to my heart, it is still only a pump.

“You must realize we are works in progress. He is the Potter and we are the Clay. We are each a unique creation of His. In fact, He has stated that He knew us before we were born. He knit us fearfully together in our mother’s womb.”

You’ll save time in your posts if you just get all these creative parallels out of your system in one go rather than tacking something on to every paragraph. You’ve used potter, knitter, instrumental player, artist, etc. Some other suggestions could be singer, blacksmith, chef, carpenter (always popular), computer programmer and sculptor.

“At this point, science can neither prove nor disapprove that there is a God. I think God wanted it this way.”

I find it very unlikely that all concepts of god will ever be disproven, but that is not the standard a rational person would aim for to rationally justify a lack of belief in such an entity.

"He said “I stand at the door and knock”

Hmmm… like a vampire.

“(the door of our heart)”

Still just a pump.

“Do you want to spend eternity with the damned in hell?”

Are you trying to scare me into believing? If you want a more effective appeal to fear you should threaten me with something I believe in.

“Don’t scoff. There is a heaven and a hell.”

I’m reasonably sure you’ve never been to either.

“I shall return as time permits to further our discussion. Lots of responsibilities in my life and I could sit here from now till forever, but sadly I must get offline for a bit. I can’t wait to continue. I’m not giving up on you. But even more then that, God is not giving up. He never will till the day you draw your last breath.”

So he’ll never give up until he does?

“How do you figure this? If Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, then there were no other people.”

I guess, if you’ve arbitrarily decided that 2 individuals out of the existing population were the first humans, then there were no other people. However, they both would have been part of a breeding population. The first humans didn’t pop into existence out of nowhere, they were the result of billions of years of biological evolution. Read some books on it, it is absolutely fascinating.

“They hadn’t had children yet if you recall Genesis.”

Not that I consider Genesis to be a reliable account, but regardless as to whether or not they had children, they had parents.

“There is that missing link that no one has yet found.”

Are you serious? There are lots of different early hominid fossils, you should see them lined up side by side according to age, but I couldn’t find a picture for you. Instead, here’s one showing just the skulls in an approximate order. It’s not quite what I had hoped to show you, but it should help to demonstrate just how many ‘missing links’ have been found. Of course, if you want to be ridiculous, you could say that every ‘missing link’ that is found creates two more gaps that require missing links:

learner.org/channel/courses/biology/archive/images/1978_d.html

“Anyway, according to scripture, Adam and Eve were alone on the earth until they produced the first humans (possibly cavemen appearing humans). All speculation.”

Then scripture is wrong. Or you can just say this was supposed to be read metaphorically, which is an easy out when scripture is faced with verifiable fact.

“Yes I agree. The mind and brain are connected in some mysterious way which is under study at this time. There is a doctor who is studying this named Dr. Parnia. I recently read this in the paper. A highly interesting study. The brain is matter, but the mind is who knows what! Maybe spirit or part of spirit?”

Maybe pixie dust or moonbeams, who knows? Hopefully Dr. Parnia will submit his study for peer review, so people who know more on the matter than you or I can attempt to falsify it.

“I have no need to hold my breath. I trust my Lord and Savior and that’s all I really need. I just find these type of studies very interesting and awe inspiring. Everything on this earth is a search for God, otherwise why bother?”

For knowledge?

“Although I have no perfect answers, neither does an atheist. It’s all a matter of faith.”

Please don’t paint me with your faith-coloured brush. I’m sorry if this latest response has seemed a little blunt, but I am more interested in discussing matters of evidence rather than poetry.

 

[Hislittlelady]

“I doubt this was concocted by this very sick woman and the janitor, so what else could it be called, if not evidence, or at best something that sounded very authentic. I’m sorry I can’t remember what it was that she saw up there by the light fixture.”

That’s fine, my points stand though, as you haven’t attempted to address them.

I thought I addressed each one very nicely.

“This is why you say there’s no evidence, because your heart is closed to him. One must first open the heart, and the ears of the spirit, and then, and only then, will you hear his call”

Again, I tell you there is no point in appealing to my heart, it is still only a pump.\

Yes that’s true. The pump called the heart made by our Creator…

You’ll save time in your posts if you just get all these creative parallels out of your system in one go rather than tacking something on to every paragraph. You’ve used potter, knitter, instrumental player, artist, etc. Some other suggestions could be singer, blacksmith, chef, carpenter (always popular), computer programmer and sculptor.

Yes, it’s true that we are the clay and He is the potter, molding us into the image of God. He has planted the seed of life into our mother’s womb. He said he did knitting, not I. And, He most certainly is all of the above. He is the ‘Master Everything.’

Are you serious? There are lots of different early hominid fossils, you should see them lined up side by side according to age, but I couldn’t find a picture for you. Instead, here’s one showing just the skulls in an approximate order. It’s not quite what I had hoped to show you, but it should help to demonstrate just how many ‘missing links’ have been found. Of course, if you want to be ridiculous, you could say that every ‘missing link’ that is found creates two more gaps that require missing links:

Okay, I used the wrong word. I meant the tie between science and God. that’s what I meant by missing link. I see no problem with tying the two together .It’s all so simple to my viewpoint.

God is not giving up. He never will till the day you draw your last breath."

So he’ll never give up until he does?

You have absolutely worn me down. I cannot produce evidence and doubt anyone ever could. How does one make an atheist see the light? I can’t do it but God can. Remember St. Paul on the road to Damascus. A pretty rotten character he was and God appeared before him and Paul fell to the ground. I honestly think this is how it will be for some people. God will choose. I would like for you to keep your ears opened at all times just in case God speaks to your ‘pump’ . And I will still maintain that he is going to dog your every step until your last breath. God does not give up because he wants every one of us to be saved. For some some people it looks so impossible, but not with Him it’s not. He will not let you go. Believe it or not!

As to your grandpa that died. You said he was an atheist. That could be, but do you know that in our last moments of life God does give us that last chance. I know this from the visions that many saints had and they were given this information. I’m not exactly sure which saint it was, maybe more then one, but there were saints that said this. We have no idea how God does this or what it’s even like on the other side beyond the veil of this life. Jesus has given us the promise. No proof other then from the very beginning what the Apostles taught us. Thus began the Catholic church which still stands today and still keeps to the same truths as what the apostles taught. Believing is a choice. You either will or you won’t. Proof is not a factor in this. Jesus said it. I believe it.

There is nothing in faith that can be proven. It just is what it is and all I know is that God has already put His hand upon you, just by you being here and chatting. It doesn’t take much for our Savior to find you. As for myself, I never went looking for Him. He came looking for me and found me. I was lost and then was found.

I send God’s many blessings on you and pray that He will give you a wonderful divine revelation to open your pump (heart) to him.
you’re bright and intelligent and know so many things, things I know nothing of. But that’s okay too. God wants us to seek, which I think you might be doing in your own way. You want proof and you will not get it, but you might get something better. Praise Jesus. He is the King of all Kings. He is our Savior. We have been saved by the blood of the Lamb.



:yyeess: :curtsey:

 

[phooney]

@HisLittleLady

“I thought I addressed each one very nicely.”

Nope, all you did was reassert that it was “PROVEN” and that you didn’t think the people involved would make it up.

I said “The circumstances under which the anecdotal evidence was obtained was far too uncontrolled to be taken seriously, which is why I expressed my concerns regarding the security about the details of what was to be on the pictures near the ceiling in the new study. It has to be double-blind to remove some of the avenues for personal bias and personal motives.”

Whereas the case you mentioned had no planning or control involved at all.

“Okay, I used the wrong word. I meant the tie between science and God. that’s what I meant by missing link. I see no problem with tying the two together .It’s all so simple to my viewpoint.”

Ah, ok, sorry.

“You have absolutely worn me down. I cannot produce evidence and doubt anyone ever could.”

Did you really think you’d be able to tell me some metaphors about god being a creator and I’d change my mind?

“How does one make an atheist see the light?”

How does one make a theist see the light?

Well, I don’t have that option at the moment.

“As to your grandpa that died. You said he was an atheist. That could be, but do you know that in our last moments of life God does give us that last chance.”

Well, no I can’t speak about his last moment, I only spoke to him a week before the end.

“We have no idea how God does this or what it’s even like on the other side beyond the veil of this life.”

Then stop making claims about these topics. As Carl Sagan said “Really, it’s okay to reserve judgment until the evidence is in.”

“Proof is not a factor in this. Jesus said it. I believe it.”

Well ok, but I can’t honestly see myself abandoning rational thinking.

“you’re bright and intelligent and know so many things, things I know nothing of.”

You’re no idiot yourself, and with the wide availability of free books in this day and age, there’s no reason you can’t read and find out about the world as well. I bet you could pick up a lot very quickly. I very much hope that you are inspired to do something along these lines, and wish you all the best.

 

[Ronald_E]

Hi Phooney,
First of all, before I forget, what is phooney?
Next, I have another piece of anecdotal info. This is from a person I know through my work. She told me last week that her parents had gone on a vacation with a couple who they had not seen in ten years. Her parents told her that the husband was pronounced dead in April of '05. He had been dead for about 20 minutes after he had been officially pronounced dead. She says that this man had been a raging alcoholic and never had anything to do with religion or God.
This man told her parents that while he was dead, like other near death reports, he was surrounded by a bright light and felt this love and joy that he could not verbally describe. In addition, he also heard singing in a language he could not understand.
Then from this light, John Paul II came up to him and gave him a blessing. That is when he awakened. It was only later that he was told that he died the same day as JP II.
He told her parents that he has medical records to substantiate his story. He is shy and uncertain what to do with this experience. I gave her permission to give him my contact info if he would like to discuss this further.
Maybe more info later.
Take care. You have a great heart.

 

[Hislittlelady]

phooney;4268150"Atheism is the lack of belief in a god, nothing more."

Ronald E… Then from this light, John Paul II came up to him and gave him a blessing. That is when he awakened. It was only later that he was told that he died the same day as JP II.
He told her parents that he has medical records to substantiate his story.

AHA! Phooney…I rest my case. God loves you and we all love you. We are all one in Christ. Amen.

:grouphug: :curtsey:

.

 

[phooney]

Hi Phooney,
First of all, before I forget, what is phooney?

Hi Ronald,

Nice to see you back again. Well, the story of my nickname is a long and not particularly exciting one. It derives from a random sound I made one time, which was later put into this particular written format by a friend of mine, had another word tacked on for a while, which has since faded into obscurity and this is what I’m left with. I heard once that it has a somewhat rude meaning in some parts of the USA, but I don’t think I’ll go into that on this forum!

Next, I have another piece of anecdotal info.

Thanks for that. I never said that there wasn’t an abundance of these anecdotes available, merely that they don’t hold any water beyond this as yet, and I expressed my concerns for this upcoming study, which I would also dismiss if they failed at the basic double-blind requirement.

I gave her permission to give him my contact info if he would like to discuss this further. Maybe more info later.

I wonder what he’s been doing in the past 5 years?

Take care. You have a great heart.

And you too, your pump also seems to be keeping you going

 

[phooney]

@HisLittleLady

AHA! Phooney…I rest my case. God loves you and we all love you. We are all one in Christ. Amen

Aw! You think you had a case!

 

[Ronald_E]

Hi Ronald,

Nice to see you back again. Well, the story of my nickname is a long and not particularly exciting one. It derives from a random sound I made one time, which was later put into this particular written format by a friend of mine, had another word tacked on for a while, which has since faded into obscurity and this is what I’m left with. I heard once that it has a somewhat rude meaning in some parts of the USA, but I don’t think I’ll go into that on this forum!

Thanks for that. I never said that there wasn’t an abundance of these anecdotes available, merely that they don’t hold any water beyond this as yet, and I expressed my concerns for this upcoming study, which I would also dismiss if they failed at the basic double-blind requirement.

I wonder what he’s been doing in the past 5 years?

And you too, your pump also seems to be keeping you going

My pump was fluttering a little on Sunday at the Portland marathon. As I have gotten older I sweat more but I cannot absorb fluids very quickly. When I was young it didn’t matter; I had a lot of reserves and could make it through without cramping. Now I cramp halfway through and my stomach is bloated because my friends tell me to drink fluids. I got my mother’s stomach.
I wanted to tell you another thing. This is not officially taught by the Catholic church. Padre Pio who died in the '60’s had the stigmata all his adult life until his death. He is also considered a mystic. One of his beliefs is that God’s love is so perfect that when a person dies that person comes face to face with God immediately after death and is given the choice to be with God or not.
With the kind “pump” you have I know what you will choose.

 

[Hislittlelady]

@HisLittleLady
Aw! You think you had a case!

Oh yeah! Ya know the Lord speaks to my heart (pump) and I happen to know he’s lookin for ya! Get ready because when He finally catches up with you, you will rejoice! Praise the name of Jesus forever and ever.

Repeat after me…“God Loves You now and forevermore.”

:curtsey:

 

[Hislittlelady]

I wanted to tell you another thing. This is not officially taught by the Catholic church. Padre Pio who died in the '60’s had the stigmata all his adult life until his death. He is also considered a mystic. One of his beliefs is that God’s love is so perfect that when a person dies that person comes face to face with God immediately after death and is given the choice to be with God or not.
With the kind “pump” you have I know what you will choose.

Wasn’t Padre Pio declared a saint? I thought he was. Padre Pio was also known to have the gift of bilocation, sorry not sure if the word is correct, but he was often seen in two different places at the same time. Many people were also healed by him of terminal illnesses among other things. I’m old enough to say I actually remember Padre Pio while he was yet still alive.

Also I’ve always been taught that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

God is so merciful. I only would pray that Phooney would feel His love while still on this earth and feel all the blessings and graces that we know, even in spite of sorrows and life’s heartaches. I absolutely believe that Phooney will definitely one day be in the presence of the Lord and with everyone praying for him, he will certainly enter the gates into the eternal kingdom.

Oh what a day that will be! Thank you Lord for loving us, unworthy sinners

Just as I am, without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me, and that thou bidd’st me come to Thee, O Lamb of God, I come, I come.