I am an atheist.

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Oh you call that your source. Surely you could do better then that!:rotfl: I bet they can tell me what diet pill to take too!! ANd sure they have:D and of course failed on that account also.
What’s wrong with that source? Not being defensive, just asking.
 
wow you need reading comp lessons

he is saying
  1. when sick people tend to pray(especially when something as bad as cancer)
  2. sometimes cancer for an unknown reason(though there is gaining data that says certain hromones may cause it) will go into spontaneous remission
  3. when this occurs people will feel the prayer was the cause
What part did I not miss? He called this spontaneous remission a miracle. But he can accept a miracle but he cannot accept God. That was my Point:rolleyes:

So now if I was to be like him, I want proof that it was indeed a miracle. Because like him not matter what people could tell me, show me, If I choose to disbelieve I will.

Which is my point. IF people believe in God it is because they choose to. If someone wants to believe in miracles they choose to. But you can deny a miracle the same as you deny God.

So if I refuse to believe in a miracle there is no way he can convince me. Now Of course I believe in miracles because they go hand in hand with God. Because God is the source of miracles.
 
Two words…NATURAL SELECTION

why is it people who dont like evolution always leave out the biggest part of it when they debate it? maybe because the only lose straw in the theory is the strawman you keep putting up?
Tak about a leap of faith.
 
What’s wrong with that source? Not being defensive, just asking.
Sure no problem. Because when you read articles like that they are a person’s view or opinion.

Like in newsweek they did a poll.

84% of Americans believe that prayer has a positive effect on their recovery.

Now 74% believe that prayer has an effect even if they do not know the person they were praying for.

SO now we go from one paper to another. We could go on forever, see what I mean. Kind of like my mother said your mother, and your mother said my mother.

But today it would probally be pretty impossible to do any study anymore. Because with the privacy laws they can’t even give out your faith. Do you see what I mean? If I went into the hospital and say the nurse told the person beside me I was Catholic she could possibly lose her job. Thats how screwed up the world is getting.
 
Oh you call that your source. Surely you could do better then that!:rotfl: I bet they can tell me what diet pill to take too!! ANd sure they have:D and of course failed on that account also.
harvard school of medicine better? i picked that one because it was an easier read but i didn’t realize how sophisticated your background in such matters was

Harvard Medical School Source
 
who does not “permit” doctors to admit this? they dont sign away their free speech when they take the Hippocratic oath, and since many hospitals are overtly religious i doubt they would secretly tell docs to remain quiet about the help of god in healing

no what you really mean is that you suspect based on personal beliefs that this is the case. but what you dont realize is that every study done shows no effect or even more ironic is a NEGATIVE effect of prayer on healing such as this one

Source
Positive therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer in a coronary care unit population.

Abstract

The therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer (IP) to the Judeo-Christian God, one of the oldest forms of therapy, has had little attention in the medical literature. To evaluate the effects of IP in a coronary care unit (CCU) population, a prospective randomized double-blind protocol was followed. Over ten months, 393 patients admitted to the CCU were randomized, after signing informed consent, to an intercessory prayer group (192 patients) or to a control group (201 patients). While hospitalized, the first group received IP by participating Christians praying outside the hospital; the control group did not. At entry, chi-square and stepwise logistic analysis revealed no statistical difference between the groups. After entry, all patients had follow-up for the remainder of the admission. The IP group subsequently had a significantly lower severity score based on the hospital course after entry (P less than .01). Multivariant analysis separated the groups on the basis of the outcome variables (P less than .0001). The control patients required ventilatory assistance, antibiotics, and diuretics more frequently than patients in the IP group.** These data suggest that intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU.**

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3393937
 
After reading all of the posts, I don’t really feel that I will be able to give a different answer to the questions you posed. If you are a true athiest then why do you ask about hell? Isn’t hell some made up place that only religious people believe in? You said in an earlier reply that all people possess a sense of morality, since that is true, even by your standards why do you think that is? Maybe because a higher Being created us to possess that in order to know what is right and wrong so that we may someday join Him in Heaven? Or to reject him and do what is wrong and go to that place the religious people like to call hell?
Yes, I am quoting myself here because I really wanted to know what you had to say…I don’t know if my post got overlooked or you just didn’t want to take time to respond. I’ll try it again…
 
  1. Part of it is an inclination, but that inclination doesn’t contradict science/the law of causality.
    1.1 Different from which one?
    1.2 Law of causality.
  1. It’s possible. It’s likely, based on what Catholicism teaches.
    2.1 It’s your choice.
    2.2 Allow people to choose how they want to spend eternity? Yes.
  1. Not being sincere on forums.
    3.1 If my son wanted to do something bad, I’d help him to make a better decision, but ultimately it’s his choice.
  1. The only thing that contradicts science is a literal interpretation of Genesis.
    4.1 Category error.
  1. If understood properly, yes.
    5.1 People have an innate sense of morality. People also assimilate to their cultures. You’re probably just following along.
  1. The natural law, yes.
6.1 I would go for the maximum number of lives saved.
 
Sure no problem. Because when you read articles like that they are a person’s view or opinion.

Like in newsweek they did a poll.

84% of Americans believe that prayer has a positive effect on their recovery.

Now 74% believe that prayer has an effect even if they do not know the person they were praying for.

SO now we go from one paper to another. We could go on forever, see what I mean. Kind of like my mother said your mother, and your mother said my mother.

But today it would probally be pretty impossible to do any study anymore. Because with the privacy laws they can’t even give out your faith. Do you see what I mean? If I went into the hospital and say the nurse told the person beside me I was Catholic she could possibly lose her job. Thats how screwed up the world is getting.
Ok, I have my problems with the study quoted by that source, but it was an actual study regarding the real world effectiveness of prayer as measured by post surgical complications and healing rates, not, as you have commented here, self perception.
 
Hello.

I’m limited on time so I’ll try to answer what I can.
  1. Why do you believe in god?
Unlike yourself, I was brought up an atheist I had this beliefe forced upon me and to be honest, I was always more agnostic than anything else. The short story is that events in my life led me to accompany someone to Mass and I felt a presence. I then visited the house of Our Lady of Loreto and I REALLY felt it. When I took my mother there some years later, she felt it and it scared her so she refused to ever enter again. I think she is not as open to changing her mind as perhaps I was - although having said that I NEVER thought I’d do so. 🙂

1.1 How is your religion different from any others?

To me religion is a very personal thing. I cannot speak for any other religion. As you’ll see in this forum, most catholics have their own view of what their religion means to them too. Try as you might, you just can’t take individual perspective out of the equation.

1.2 Do you actually have any logical reason to believe in god?

I’m an engineer and a biologist. My husband is a rocket scientist. Science does not disprove God. It can offer explanations of certain things, but from my viewpoint, God is a very clever engineer. the perfect engineer. When I see the number of functions the liver performs in our bodies for example, I wonder at the intelligence that could great such I thing that can do SO many things at once and how it is powered etc, etc. Trying to convince even the most stubborn of people that all these things occurred by chance is difficult. Even Darwin gave up when he got to the eye. He just couldn’t fathom how it could have evolved. Oh, and incase you’re wondering, I know some of the top engineers and scientists in the UK and the majority of them would not say there is no God. My husband is possibly the most devout person I know…​

  1. Do you believe that god will send me to hell, even if I live my life really well, but I just don’t believe in him?
I don’t believe any father that loves their child would do so. I speak for myself here, and some in this forum will disagree. If God is the God of the New Testament then he is loving and forgiving etc. If he is the God of the Old Testament then I seem to recall him being an angry and jealous God…but you’d have to read it to check. I’m not obsessive about quoting from the bible.

2.1 Do you think this is just?

See above.

2.2 Would you do the same?

Judge not least ye be judged, as far as I’m concerned.​

  1. For what would you send a person for eternal torture?
I could do do this. I find forgiving hard work some times but I always manage it - and my life is happier that I do.

3.1 Would you send your child, who you love, also there?

I would not send anyone there…not for eternity at least!​

  1. Why do you think religion tends to contradict science?
It doesn’t. In many cases it supports it. Atheists can use it as a tool to discredit religion and vice versa.

4.1 Do you think science tends to be correct, in fact a lot more than religion? (if no, why not?)

The 2 are not mutually exclusive.​

  1. Do you think bible is the source of all moral?
All moral what?

5.1 If so, how do you explain my moral?

Moral what?​

  1. Do you think the ten commandments are perfect, and more than enough to guide your life?
Not at all…but I think they are not a bad starting point. I’m not perfect and I have never managed to honour my parents - but that’s another post, I think!

6.1 If so, what would you do in the following situation? "You are at a railroad track. The train is coming, and far ahead, you can see five persons in it’s way. The persons can not hear you nor the train. (they are wearing headphones, they can’t hear, I don’t know) The persons are not moving, and will soon be hit by the train. You have only one chance saving them. Next to you there is a switch. By pulling the switch, the train will change track. But on this other track is also one other person, who will be hit by the train. Will you save the five persons, but kill the other one?

You see, the bible states, ‘thou shalt not kill’, yet on this and similar situations, you must use your own judgment.

You are not killing. The train is killing. Your inaction results in the death of five people. Your action could save the lives of four.

6.2 And what if the other person on the second track is your mother/father/child?

What happens? If you flick the switch they die. That would be your choice. Some would make the difficult decision to send the person they love elsewhere, some would not…but I don’t understand what you are after with your question here. WHo would possibly judge you under these circumstances other than yourself?

Well, I’ve given you my perspective. If you wnat to ask me anything on any of the above, feel free.

T.x
 
Charles:

An essay by Francisco Ayala, Templeton Prize Winner 2010.

Here he is on the topic of natural selection, showing that it is a creative process and not random:

Natural Selection as a Creative Process
"Critics have sometimes alleged as evidence against Darwin’s theory of evolution examples showing that random processes cannot yield meaningful, organized outcomes. It is thus pointed out that a series of monkeys randomly striking letters on a typewriter would never write The Origin of Species, even if we allow for millions of years and many generations of monkeys pounding at typewriters.

This criticism would be valid if evolution would depend only on random processes. But natural selection is a nonrandom process that promotes adaptation by selecting combinations that “make sense,” i.e., that are useful to the organisms. The analogy of the monkeys would be more appropriate if a process existed by which, first, meaningful words would be chosen every time they appeared on the typewriter; and then we would also have typewriters with previously selected words rather than just letters in the keys, and again there would be a process to select meaningful sentences every time they appeared in this second typewriter.

If every time words such as “the,” “origin,” “species,” and so on, appeared in the first kind of typewriter, they each became a key in the second kind of typewriter, meaningful sentences would occasionally be produced in this second typewriter. If such sentences became incorporated into keys of a third type of typewriter, in which meaningful paragraphs were selected whenever they appeared, it is clear that pages and even chapters “making sense” would eventually be produced.

We need not carry the analogy too far, since the analogy is not fully satisfactory, but the point is clear. Evolution is not the outcome of purely random processes, but rather there is a “selecting” process, which picks up adaptive combinations because these reproduce more effectively and thus become established in populations. These adaptive combinations constitute, in turn, new levels of organization upon which the mutation (random) plus selection (nonrandom or directional) process again operates.

The manner in which natural selection can generate novelty in the form of accumulated hereditary information may be illustrated by the following example. Some strains of the colon bacterium, Escherichia coli, in order to be able to reproduce in a culture medium, require that a certain substance, the amino acid histidine, be provided in the medium. When a few such bacteria are added to a cubic centimeter of liquid culture medium, they multiply rapidly and produce between two and three billion bacteria in a few hours.

Spontaneous mutations to streptomycin resistance occur in normal (i.e., sensitive) bacteria at rates of the order of one in one hundred million (1 x 10-8) cells. In our bacterial culture we expect between twenty and thirty bacteria to be resistant to streptomycin due to spontaneous mutation. If a proper concentration of the antibiotic is added to the culture, only the resistant cells survive. The twenty or thirty surviving bacteria will start reproducing, however, and allowing a few hours for the necessary number of cell divisions, several billion bacteria are produced, all resistant to streptomycin. Among cells requiring histidine as a growth factor, spontaneous mutants able to reproduce in the absence of histidine arise at rates of about four in one hundred million (4 x 10-8) bacteria. The streptomycin resistant cells may now be transferred to a culture with streptomycin but with no histidine. Most of them will not be able to reproduce, but about a hundred will start reproducing until the available medium is saturated.

Natural selection has produced in two steps bacterial cells resistant to streptomycin and not requiring histidine for growth. The probability of the two mutational events happening in the same bacterium is of about four in ten million billion (1 x 10-8 x 4 x 10-8 = 4 x 10-16) cells. An event of such low probability is unlikely to occur even in a large laboratory culture of bacterial cells. With natural selection, cells having both properties are the common result.

As illustrated by the bacterial example, natural selection produces combinations of genes that would otherwise be highly improbable because natural selection proceeds stepwise. The vertebrate eye did not appear suddenly in all its present perfection. Its formation requires the appropriate integration of many genetic units, and thus the eye could not have resulted from random processes alone. The ancestors of today’s vertebrates had for more than half a billion years some kind of organs sensitive to light. Perception of light, and later vision, were important for these organisms’ survival and reproductive success.

Accordingly, natural selection favored genes and gene combinations increasing the functional efficiency of the eye. Such genetic units gradually accumulated, eventually leading to the highly complex and efficient vertebrate eye. Natural selection can account for the rise and spread of genetic constitutions, and therefore of types of organisms, that would never have existed under the uncontrolled action of random mutation. In this sense, natural selection is a creative process, although it does not create the raw materials — the genes — upon which it acts."
Francisco Ayala

The rest is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/04/27/evolution-topics-by-dr-francisco-ayala/

You will find Dr. Ayala does not confuse religion with science and is perfectly comfortable with his Catholic beliefs.

Another scientist I enjoy is Dr. Steven M Barr, who shows the falsity of scientism and its narratives. There are several essays in this series, but here is a good place to start:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2010/03/15/the-church-and-the-scientists/

dj
 
Yes, I am quoting myself here because I really wanted to know what you had to say…I don’t know if my post got overlooked or you just didn’t want to take time to respond. I’ll try it again…
evolution

there is for example take murder, a hard numbers of murders a small society can withstand before the group dies out

this number is the birth rate - the natural and accidental death rate

if any group goes over this number they will die off as a group witch means their genes witch have a high level of homicidal aggression die as well

it can be shown as well that groups that have high levels of sharing are better at surviving even at an individual level
 
  1. Why do you believe in god? I believe in God because God is logical. There are too many constants in this universe for there not to be an intelligent being creating everything.
    1.1 How is your religion different from any others? My religion is different because I can trace it back straight to God. Not a person who heard voices or had visions but literally God, Jesus Christ.
    1.2 Do you actually have any logical reason to believe in god? Scientists who studied the Big Bang learned that the only way for our universe to exist as it does today there would have to be a low entropy explosion. The chances of a low entropy explosion are so improbable they are impossible.
  1. Do you believe that god will send me to hell, even if I live my life really well, but I just don’t believe in him? You cannot ask me that as I am not God. I can’t tell you that. Also, God does not send people to hell people send themselves to hell for rejecting God’s mercy. I cannot tell what’s in your heart so I cannot answer.
    2.1 Do you think this is just?
    2.2 Would you do the same?
  1. For what would you send a person for eternal torture? See above answer.
    3.1 Would you send your child, who you love, also there?
  1. Why do you think religion tends to contradict science? Religion does not contradict science, religion and science go together.
    4.1 Do you think science tends to be correct, in fact a lot more than religion? (if no, why not?) See above answer, if they do not go together then there was a flaw in the experiment, a misreading of the results, or a misinterpretation of the Bible or the Church.
  1. Do you think bible is the source of all moral? The Church is infallable in faith and morals.
    5.1 If so, how do you explain my moral? I can’t explain your morals as I am not you.
  1. Do you think the ten commandments are perfect, and more than enough to guide your life? The commandments are a great starting point yet the Church is the perfect guide of faith and morals, the Church won’t contradict the commandments but instead add to them.
    6.1 If so, what would you do in the following situation? "You are at a railroad track. The train is coming, and far ahead, you can see five persons in it’s way. The persons can not hear you nor the train. (they are wearing headphones, they can’t hear, I don’t know) The persons are not moving, and will soon be hit by the train. You have only one chance saving them. Next to you there is a switch. By pulling the switch, the train will change track. But on this other track is also one other person, who will be hit by the train. Will you save the five persons, but kill the other one?
You see, the bible states, ‘thou shalt not kill’, yet on this and similar situations, you must use your own judgment.

You are just trying to set me up. There is no point to this question. I could throw a rock at them or something if I had to plus I don’t know if you have heard a train blow it’s horn but no headphone at any volume will take away the noise of a trains horn which is immediately sounded at the siting of anything on the tracks so your question is absurd.
6.2 And what if the other person on the second track is your mother/father/child?
Again your questions makes no sense because anyone would hear the train unless they were deaf. Now you may say, “What if the person were deaf” and I would say that I know a deaf person and they would have never gone somewhere where hearing could save their lives without a friend with them.

Now that I have answered your questions I have a few of mine:
  1. Do you have value? Give me an objective moral reason why you have value?
  2. Can you explain the improbability of all the constants the we get more and more of every year?
I have some more but I’d like you to answer this first. Thank you
 
It was a peer reviewed double bind study-the fact you dont like the results does not make it any less so.
if you doont understand why a study 9 times larger is more accurate even if both studies are performed to a T then you are lost
 
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