I am an atheist.

[CharlesDarwin]

Search on some of the evolution or atheism threads already going. There is much valuable material.

Also - read The Irrational Atheist (demolishes atheism totally) if you dare. It is free and downloadable.

The Godless Delusion

Life After Death, The Evidence

Listen to any debate between William Lane Craig and the atheist of your choice.

Can You Prove God Exists?

read all except the life after death evidence once…still an atheist…the others use bad logical arguments, make huge leaps from a to D to F and then to God…

If you are still atheist after this, then come back and we will talk. I will share something that if you are really serious will help.

 

[CharlesDarwin]

Dear Atheist,
Sorry if this has been said before, but the bottom-line, as I see it, is this: Faith, like love, is a choice. Try Pascal’s Wager (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager). He was a 17th century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist.

ah the ole fire insurance argument.so your god is all knowing

so if in my heart i say there is no god…but i say outwardly there is a god…when i get to heaven(HUGE ASSUMPTION that i will because i dont think i will) for judgment your all knowing god will only know what my lips said and not what was in my heart?

then why call him god?

anyone who believes or says they believe only to avoid hell is the worst kind of christian and worst kind of person in general

 

[nancygayle]

Hello,
I’ve been reading many of the responses to your questions.
You sound as if you are really searching and I hope & pray that you will be given the ‘grace’ to come to know that your & my God, exists.

Finding God, is not a matter of rationalism, but a matter of Faith, which is a gift from God, and which will be given to all, who are earnestly looking for Him. God does not have any favorites, and He wants you to share in the joy, of being united with Him, both here on Earth & later, in Heaven, for eternity! Again, it is your choice.

You have been given many ways of discovering God, our Creator, in this ‘thread’. You seem to reject all the suggestions.
Then again, you may not want the answers, but just in case you want to chance it, you may say to the air or whatever, ‘if you are there, God, show me’…

There is a verse in the Bible, that says that, we will not rest, until we rest in Thee…
God Bless you on your continuing journey!

I hope for you, as I hope for several of our family members, that you all will allow Our Lord to come into your life & heart, and show you The-God-Kind-of-Love & answers, for which you are seeking… Much Success!

 

[NotReligous]

1. DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2. All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3. Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

This evidence debunks atheism.

In short, I did NOT read the link, but I presumed it had the info. And I am aware, that DNA does not have one theory that would explain it, for we can’t know too much about the stages of that early evolution.

Anyways, I am quite sure the video link did have an explanation though? (one theory)

We have few…here is a list of the most popular;

I hope these are what you looking for; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution

And here is a reply to the 3 step argument;

“Chaos can produce patterns but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols” Though the process of random mutation and natural selection is not chaotic, it is a self-correcting mechanism that generates brute force solutions to problems by trial and error. Natural selection is what makes the pattern in the dna useful to achieve its basic characteristic property being self replication ."

 

[NotReligous]

Ok, a HUGE amount of posts. I don’t think I will reply to each and every one… Anyways, this one caught my eye.

I don’t think this discussion is getting anywhere with you, and I believe that the reason it isn’t is because you are asking proof for the unproveable. You cannot absolutely prove the existance of God. Also, you cannot absolutely prove God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an athiest as it does to be a believer. You have to BELIEVE there is not God if you are an athiest. Just as you have to BELIEVE there is one if you are a thiest.

I see your reasoning, but unfortunately atheism takes no faith. Why? It takes as much faith to be an atheist, as to not believe any other mythical creatures. (elves, etc.) Why? Both of them (as you stated) don’t have any proof of their existence. ("you are asking proof for the unproveable.)

ISo you are stuck, aren’t you? You are not truly an athiest, because you would like to believe. You said so yourself. And you pray. Just out of habit? I don’t think so. Just in case is probably more like it. A true athiest does not pray, even out of habit. That would be quite illogical.

Yea, I knew that comment would bite me back…no point of denying the praying thing,(wouldn’t be honest with myself) “A true athiest does not pray, even out of habit. That would be quite illogical.” True, in a way. Maybe I am not a 100% atheist then…actually the only reason I pray, is my fear of death. Horrible idea, really. Basically, when I ‘pray’ I just say; “Don’t let me die tonight.” Sleeping is a bit like death for me, you see. (if you have no dreams, it is basically the same) And I would take any chance I saw escaping death. So, I think it is more of a phobia like thing…I fear that I will die, if I don’t pray. It is illogical fear, so I would truly call it a phobia.

Yet you aren’t a thiest, because you say you can’t believe. So what do you do in this untenable situation? You come to a Catholic forum and pose a series of questions which basically have nothing to do with with the situation you are in, and then expect others to provide answers for you, and then argue about the answers. You expect us to do what you cannot do. We cannot believe for you, and we cannot make you believe.

Well, first of all, I have already stated that I simply can not believe in something with out proof. And I argue about the answers, so you might see why they don’t work as proof for me. (this way, maybe other persons could tell me something I expect as proof?)

This is the most we can do, and I’m going to relate it to science: Have you ever SEEN an atom? Or a proton, neutron, or electron? No, but you believe in the atomic theory, and you believe they exist and do their thing, because you see the evidence for their existance. You see the effects. And you believe. Yet you do not have absolute proof.

Expect that we indeed can see atoms (microscope), and we have studied them, based assumptions over the studies, and found out that all the assumptions interacted with the real world. And so on… So, we do have as absolute proof, as you can, of atoms.

It is the same way with God. We see the evidence for His existance in the universe. We have seen the effects of His existance in our lives. So we believe.

Everyone here is telling me, that god has affected their lives, but no one bothers to tell me how! So how has god affected you, and how does it differ from the effect of any other religion?

That is the most we can do for you, is tell you this, we cannot give you absolute proof. So don’t criticize us and say we are not answering your questions.

Ok, you can just say; I don’t know then. Many people have. I am fine with that.

We are, you just don’t like the fact that we can’t prove the unproveable. And neither can you.

You do realize how this particular sentence strikes to me as a skeptic…?

So you are going to have to do the best you can to solve your dilemma, in wanting to believe, but not being able to. I think you have mislabeled yourself as an athiest–you just don’t know.

Ok…but…know…what?

And that is all right. That will keep your mind open to possibilities. I suggest you drop all the questions about religion, hell, morals, science, the Bible, etc., and find the answer to your basic question first. If you decide that God does not exist, they are pretty useless to you. If you decide He does, then you go from there.

“I suggest you drop all the questions about religion, hell, morals, science, the Bible, etc”

But these are a part of the major reason, why I can’t believe in him! I can’t ask basic things, when I see huge obstacles in the way!

Side note; I don’t have too much time…lets see if I can reply to more people…

 

[NotReligous]

Double (ish) post…

 

[NotReligous]

In short, I did NOT read the link, but I presumed it had the info. And I am aware, that DNA does not have one theory that would explain it, for we can’t know too much about the stages of that early evolution.

Anyways, I am quite sure the video link did have an explanation though? (one theory)

We have few…here is a list of the most popular;

I hope these are what you looking for; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution

And here is a reply to the 3 step argument;

“Chaos can produce patterns but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols” Though the process of random mutation and natural selection is not chaotic, it is a self-correcting mechanism that generates brute force solutions to problems by trial and error. Natural selection is what makes the pattern in the dna useful to achieve its basic characteristic property being self replication ."

I wanted to say a bit more about this. (another reply a bit above)

NOTE; If this is not the reply you are looking for, it is probably because I don’t get the 3 step argument. I really don’t. DNA has a code, so it had to be 'coded´? What makes you think that chemical reactions mixed with evolution can not be the ‘coder’?

 

[NotReligous]

The other things were basic, but you had some questions for me…

1. Do you have value? Give me an objective moral reason why you have value?

Me? Value? I am a human being. If one only values human beings because their religion says so, it seems quite sick, doesn’t it?

1. Can you explain the improbability of all the constants the we get more and more of every year?

What improbability of all the constants? If you mean the, “we are so complicated argument”, here is a reply; (from one of my private messages)

"Unfortunately you are doing a fallacy here. You can’t say, what are the odds for everything, if we already know another cause! Example; What are the odds, that every time you drop a ball, it always just happens to fall down? (one billionth of blah blah blah) There are all the other possible directions it could fall! (gravity)

Same way our body —> evolution.

And life adapts to its environment, making the environment seem perfectly ‘designed’ for it. "

I have some more but I’d like you to answer this first. Thank you

Ok! Fire on!

Side note; To other people who have questions for me; there is a big chance that I wont even have the time t read them let alone answer them. If they are incredibly improtant, send me a private message, ok? (I’ll try to answer them as quickly as possible)

 

[NotReligous]

Oh so you accept miracles but not God? And who do these miracles come from Santa Or maybe the tooth fairy!

When I put these things; ‘(text)’ or “(text)” it means, I don’t actually mean what the word says. So I just wanted to point out that these are not miracles.

Sorry I had you confused.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

Science and religion do not contradict each other. However, they belong on a bit different thinking fields. Both require logic and reason, but you have to analyze them differently. Does that make sense?

As a scientist, you should know that the basic definition of science is the study of natural phenomena.

However, God is not natural - He is supernatural - and therefore cannot be proven in the same way as scientific matter. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God using the scientific method.

That may seem like a turn-off for you, since in reality you raise a decent point - why SHOULD you believe in something that cannot be proven by science?

Well, you have to admit that the scientific method is a human approach to problem-solving, right? As effective as it is under the right circumstances, do you TRULY believe that a system developed by imperfect human beings is going to be flawless in every situation?

I recommend Dr. Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli’s Handbook of Christian Apologetics. I think that you will find at least a starting point to many of the answers to your questions in this book. At least it will get you thinking logically, yet in a different perspective.

 

[NotReligous]

Science and religion do not contradict each other. However, they belong on a bit different thinking fields. Both require logic and reason, but you have to analyze them differently. Does that make sense?

Yes…I think many people misunderstand what I mean by that…What I mean is that they tend to contradict each other. (mainly with other religions, and trough out history)

As a scientist, you should know that the basic definition of science is the study of natural phenomena.

However, God is not natural - He is supernatural - and therefore cannot be proven in the same way as scientific matter. You cannot prove or disprove the existence of God using the scientific method.

I would basically reply the same thing you said. (the next quote, below me)

That may seem like a turn-off for you, since in reality you raise a decent point - why SHOULD you believe in something that cannot be proven by science?

(this thing)

Well, you have to admit that the scientific method is a human approach to problem-solving, right? As effective as it is under the right circumstances, do you TRULY believe that a system developed by imperfect human beings is going to be flawless in every situation?

No, not flawless. But as long as science is backed up with evidence, it is extremely unlikely to be wrong.

I recommend Dr. Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli’s Handbook of Christian Apologetics. I think that you will find at least a starting point to many of the answers to your questions in this book. At least it will get you thinking logically, yet in a different perspective.

Sigh. I wish I had the time. I am not even sure where I would find such a book. If it is outside of my country I can’t buy it. (I got no credit card for that)

 

[NotReligous]

Replying to some parts of this message.

I’m going to turn this back on you. How can you say it is only luck? How do you KNOW it isn’t more? You keep telling me I have to prove God exists- but you can’t prove God doesn’t exist either.

Because it was only luck. The first two times I almost died, I was a kid. The first thing that almost killed me was an oven. I wanted to climb in as a small child, and the whole thing fell on me! But the ovens door was open, so it didn’t crush me. (I just went inside the oven) I was just a curious child. I don’t even remember this, but my parents have told me about it.

Second time, I fell down the stairs (steel stairs) hit, my head a few times and…well, I got a deep cut in my head, and probably would have died, but my father took me before falling any more. That I do remember, I think I was five. Both of these things were simply bad (and good) luck. I was a child, did a mistake, that almost killed me. Nothing supernatural there.

3rd time a car. 4th time I had some problems with my organs. With the exception of the 4th one, in every one of these things I had made a mistake, that could have killed me. .

I’ll give you my examples but you are just going to say “that’s luck.”

Probably, and I’ll give you reasons later on.

My mother was sitting in a rocking chair with my baby brother and suddenly decided to get up for no reason. As soon as she moved away from the chair a bullet came through the window and hit the wall…it would have gone through her head had she stayed in the chair. When we asked her why she got up, she couldn’t give a reason just that she felt compelled to get up.

Just one question…were you in a war zone or what? Did you ever discover why a bullet came trough the window?

I was behind on my bills and not really sure what I was going to do. I was really worried I was going to overdraft my account-----I found $200 on the sidewalk that day. Which was the exact amount I needed. What are the chances I would find the exact amount I need, at the exact time I needed it- with plenty of time to get to the bank?

Ok, now let me reply to these things… First of all, many, many people, no matter what their religion have had lucky things like these. Is god trying to confuse us by giving everyone miracles, or are these things simply luck? Also, why are miracles almost always things that can be explained in other things? Why instead of cancer, doesn’t god heal something completely impossible to heal? (and not rare to heal) Like amputees?

Also, remember that we tend to thank someone when things go suddenly well. (like god) How do you explain sudden horrible bad luck? Like you this; You are walking to work, and you feel like that you need to stop by for a drink, thus changing your normal path. And then at that path, you happen to get robbed.

Ok, that example is fictional, of course, but things like these do happen as often as good luck. (not this extreme perhaps, but still, you got my point)

You have been told, there have been hints. Remember Christ? The Son of God came to live among us, died for us and was resurrected? Remember everything he said about God will forgive and will help. You have been told you just choose to say “eh, I don’t believe you.”

Buddha…Mohamed…etc…

Read the story in Luke about the rich man and Lazuras- The rich man asks for a chance to go tell his brothers so they will amend their lives. Abraham told him “They have been told.”

I have actually read that.

That you choose not to listen is not the same as not being told. And you know in your hearts of heart that you have been given gifts- you know not everything in your life is because of your own effort. But you call it Luck- we call it God.

Well if luck is proof of god, then this world has millions of gods.

Hehehe- yep! See it can be worse!

Indeed, it can.

Ok I admit it, I dodge this question as everyone else did. But that is because we are uncomfortable putting ourselves in God’s position even hypothetically. It borders on blasphemy. You ought to respect that.

Mhhm…

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Some of them, yes. Thanks.

 

[SOTER502]

In short, I did NOT read the link, but I presumed it had the info. And I am aware, that DNA does not have one theory that would explain it, for we can’t know too much about the stages of that early evolution.

Anyways, I am quite sure the video link did have an explanation though? (one theory)

We have few…here is a list of the most popular;

I hope these are what you looking for; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution

And here is a reply to the 3 step argument;

“Chaos can produce patterns but it has never been shown to produce codes or symbols” Though the process of random mutation and natural selection is not chaotic, it is a self-correcting mechanism that generates brute force solutions to problems by trial and error. Natural selection is what makes the pattern in the dna useful to achieve its basic characteristic property being self replication ."

this is pure speculation without evidence whatsoever. The evidence is against spontaneous arise of DNA, and the first living cell. Its a hurdle, that evolutionists cannot past.

newgeology.us/presentation32.html

Amino acid molecules that form proteins, and nucleotide molecules that form DNA and RNA resist combining at any temperature. To combine, they need the help of mechanisms in a living cell or a biochemist in an organic chemistry laboratory.16 It means that nothing happens in the primeval soup, the pond of chemicals where evolutionists believe life began. DNA and RNA dissolve in water33, so there could not even be water in the primeval soup. DNA is made of only right-handed versions of nucleotides, while proteins are made of only left-handed versions of amino acids.

check for homochirality

godandscience.org/evolution/origin_homochirality.html

Yet any random chemical reaction that produced nucleotides or amino acids would make an equal mix of left and right-handed versions of each. Even if the thousands of nucleotides or amino acids needed to form individual DNA or protein molecules were able to combine from this mix, they would be a jumble of left and right-handed versions that could not function at all.

Mindboggling complexity - proteins

Even a single cell is not simple. In Darwin’s day researchers looked at cells under the microscope and saw little balloons filled with goo they called protoplasm, so they thought cells were simple forms of life. 150 years later we know that there are many types of cells, and each cell is a little city at work. The smallest known genome (Mycoplasma genitalium) has 482 genes.17 The minimum possible for an organism to survive is probably 200 to 300 genes. Most bacteria have 1000 to 4000 genes. A popular textbook on the cell1 is 1600 pages long and weighs 7 pounds. Everything about the cell is stunningly complex. Plants and animals contain a great variety of cells. The human body has about 210 different types of cells.

Cells are made of proteins, and everything that goes on in a creature involves proteins interacting with each other. Proteins are generally 50 to 2000 amino acids long; a typical one has about 300 amino acids.1 Ribosomes are molecular machines that build proteins in all cells, using messenger RNA as the template. Here is an overview of how a bacterial ribosome “translates” RNA into protein. Every protein in bacteria is made this way.

The temperature and chemical concentrations must be right for it to fold correctly, and many proteins get help from special proteins called “molecular chaperones”. Chaperones can keep proteins separated from each other while they are folding, prevent mistakes in folding, and even unfold mistakes to give the protein a second chance to get it right. After helping one protein fold, a chaperone will go help another one fold.

The necessary proteins cannot be invented one at a time. Either they are all there, ready to work together, or nothing happens and they disintegrate. Yet even if it could design proteins, mutation-natural selection would only work on one at a time sporadically over many years.

 

[Dokimas]

---

A few questions; (please do answer) Note; Don’t get nervous, or start sending insults, if you can’t answer, then simply admit it. (I have always tried to do so)

1. Why do you believe in god? Because, IMO, it’s far more logical than not to.
   1.1 How is your religion different from any others? That’s none of my business. I’m not searching.
   1.2 Do you actually have any logical reason to believe in god? Yes

• 1. Do you believe that god will send me to hell, even if I live my life really well, but I just don’t believe in him? **No; **He gave you free will to choose. If you end in hell, it’s will because you chose not to realize your need for the Savior Jesus.
     2.1 Do you think this is just? Letting us choose? Absolutely.
     2.2 Would you do the same? Makes most sense to me. You wouldn’t want to be forced to accept something you don’t want to accept, do you? ‘Science’ tells us there there are rules to follow and there are usually BAD results when we don’t follow those rules.

1. For what would you send a person for **eternal ** torture? Not my job description. **However, seems your understanding of hell and mine my be different. IMO, what happens to a person in hell will be their own making. The ‘burning’ is like the passions that burn in us. Example: have you done anything in life that you really wish you hadn’t done? Does is ‘haunt’ you still? If I killed someone while driving my car foolishly, I would be tormented the rest of my life. IMO, hell is like this. We will torment ourselves with all the wrong decisions of this life. We’ll be tormented with all the wrong passions and those passions NEVER to be fulfilled. We chose hell and make it. **
   3.1 Would you send your child, who you love, also there? That’s an easy one: God doesnt’ send or let any of His children go to hell so NO I wouldn’t.-
2. Why do you think religion tends to contradict science? I can’t speak for ‘religion’ but IMO so called science contradicts itself some times. It’s NOT all knowing. Scientists in the same fields don’t always see things the same. Not all scientist are objective. Some say certain things to get more money. Sounds a bit like ‘religion’ from one point of view.
   4.1 Do you think science tends to be correct, in fact a lot more than religion? (if no, why not?) Again, I can’t speak for ‘religion’. When science just sticks to real observations, it’s most often correct. Please explain to me why billions upon billions upon billions are spent to see if there’s life outside the planet when so many here on earth are sick and are starving?

1. Do you think bible is the source of all moral? God’s the source. The Bible tells us the specifics.
   5.1 If so, how do you explain my moral? God gave you a conscience.

1. Do you think the ten commandments are perfect, and more than enough to guide your life? In what way? Do you understand why they exist? One major reason they exist to show us our sinfulness. Understanding our sinfulness helps us see our need for the Savior Jesus.
   6.1 If so, what would you do in the following situation? "You are at a railroad track. The train is coming, and far ahead, you can see five persons in it’s way. The persons can not hear you nor the train. (they are wearing headphones, they can’t hear, I don’t know) The persons are not moving, and will soon be hit by the train. You have only one chance saving them. Next to you there is a switch. By pulling the switch, the train will change track. But on this other track is also one other person, who will be hit by the train. Will you save the five persons, but kill the other one? What does this have to do with our discussion on whether or not God exists?

You see, the bible states, ‘thou shalt not kill’, yet on this and similar situations, you must use your own judgment. We are not to murder. Your example falls short of murder.

6.2 And what if the other person on the second track is your mother/father/child?  **A situation to be avoided; just like hell should be avoided by faith in Jesus Christ.**

These are some of the very basic questions, that I will ask you. Please reply to them. How’d I do?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Link to banned topics notice for atheism threads.
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