I am an atheist

[Kitty_Chan]

I don’t know enough to really write about evolution, I could see myself answering general questions about it, but for more detailed questions, I would have to go ask a biologist.

Oh I meant I wanted answers back then, see when we came up to evolution unit. I thought ok now we are going to see what actually happened. aaannnd nothing really, just as unbelievable as the creation. Thats why I was disappointed. This is why I said I can understand your stance on not believing anything, I felt the same way. And still do on several things.

To be clear I dont now, but that was after asking alot of questions, even then it took awhile to get to that point. And on the subject of questions, Here, I will go all scriptural on you, Jesus said to “test all things” so no matter who said it. Thats still good advice, so I do.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I have considered it, but as far as the hardware goes, I don’t follow chipset designs closely enough. I usually go ask someone what I can put in. For the software, I can usually install and update, but if you have to do some of the deeper stuff, I again need help.
I mostly end up helping friends with their computers, not doing it for a living. It is quite satisfying to clean the malware off of someones computer, or get their new video care up and running, but I don’t know how satisfying it would be doing it for a living every day…

Yeah, that’s pretty much how i started. You might want to consider getting A+ and Network+ certified. The A+ cert is for computer hardware and OSes, the Net+ os for computer networking basics. Once you get these certs, you have them for life; they don’t expire.

If you want a forum where you may ask and answer computer questions, i’d suggest www.computerhope.com. There is a great group of people there who have sincere desire to help others, and you don’t have to pay to post as you might in other forums.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

It’s a tough question. In short I don’t think that you (or any person) could provide any evidence. Yahweh is supposed to be powerful enough to provide his own evidence. When people try to convince me that one of the gods exists, they usually mix in their own motives, and try to appear as if they have some ‘special knowledge’ about how Yahweh wants *me *to behave. I say that is advancing the desires of men or the church, not Yahweh.
I have not looked at your evidence yet, so don’t think I am completely closed to it. I simply can’t imagine what you could present that would account for all the wild claims made by the bible.

It sounds, then, that you are more intelligent than an atheist. An atheist, by definition, is one who claims to know there is no God. An agnostic, on the other hand, is one who admits there might be a God but has not seen any convincing evidence, yet.

 

[zerinus]

If there is a real god, he will reach me himself - not through one of the many confusing religions.

God will reach you if you want to be found by Him; not if you don’t. Anyone who chooses atheism as his belief system or philosophy of life (atheism is actually a religion) is stating that he does not to be found of God. No one can know that there isn’t a God. Anyone therefore who declares himself to be of that persuasion is stating his preference that he does not want God to be. And no one can find God who chooses that preference. Let me quote you some passage of scripture that I happen to believe in (even if you don’t):

Hebrews 11:

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 Nephi 9:

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

Why would he set up the world with so many mutually exclusive ways of worshipping him?

Who said that God has set up all of those? Some of them are man made. Some of them were originally set up by God; but later they became corrupted, and are no longer acknowledged by Him.

For that matter, what kind of being desires blind worship over critical assessment?

That is a false accusation that you bring against God. God neither desires blind worship nor is He against critical assessment. Scripture again:

1 Thessalonians 5:

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

“Prove” here means to “examine,” “test,” “try”.

zerinus

 

[_A]

Yeah, that’s pretty much how i started. You might want to consider getting A+ and Network+ certified. The A+ cert is for computer hardware and OSes, the Net+ os for computer networking basics. Once you get these certs, you have them for life; they don’t expire.

If you want a forum where you may ask and answer computer questions, i’d suggest www.computerhope.com. There is a great group of people there who have sincere desire to help others, and you don’t have to pay to post as you might in other forums.

Thanks, I have been reading the A+ book for awhile now, and with luck, eventually, I will have the confidence to do the tests and move on to the Net+ and MCSE(?).

I have been using forum.techguy.org, they have a great support group. I will check out the one you suggest.

 

[_A]

It sounds, then, that you are more intelligent than an atheist. An atheist, by definition, is one who claims to know there is no God.

Your incorrect there. An atheist does not believe in a god. Thats it. Attaching more to it is a common mistake.

An agnostic, on the other hand, is one who admits there might be a God but has not seen any convincing evidence, yet.

The convincing evidence is the overwhelming lack of evidence. Not one bit of independantly verifiable evidence has been produced. That is with believers and skeptics searching vigorously. Most of the claims of the believers are not falsifiable. That is another big clue for me.

 

[_A]

God will reach you if you want to be found by Him; not if you don’t. Anyone who chooses atheism as his belief system or philosophy of life (atheism is actually a religion) This is plainly false. You keep saying atheism is several things that it isn’t. If it is a religion, where is the dogma? Where do we atheists hold our meetings? How are we organized?
Atheism is simply the opposite of theism. Theism means a belief in a god (like Zuess, Yahweh or Allah). A-theism simply means a lack of such a belief.

a·the·ist /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

See - denial or disbelief are covered here.
If you want to argue with yourself and imaginary opponents go ahead. If, however you are trying to engage in reasonable argument with myself, then don’t speak for me, I am capable of doing it myself.

I lack a belief in gods. Without that belief, I am told, I can’t have a belief in Yahweh. Thats OK with me. I have read up a little on him, and learned quite a bit in school. Not my cup of tea, and I still have no reason to believe that the bible is any more than a collection of old stories. I had Yahweh offered to me, I declined.

I would do the same if he made his offer in person.

I don’t believe. If you can’t imagine such a position, believe me when I tell you it changes a persons outlook on many things.
zerinus;2980933:

Who said that God has set up all of those? Some of them are man made. Some of them were

originally set up by God; but later they became corrupted, and are no longer acknowledged by Him.
How do you know if you have chosen the right recipe? If the simple accident of birth will condemn every muslim or christian ever born to eternal torment, that is simply not fair.

That is a false accusation that you bring against God. God neither desires blind worship nor is He against critical assessment. Scripture again:

1 Thessalonians 5:

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

“Prove” here means to “examine,” “test,” “try”.

zerinus

Well, I don’t believe because of the overwhelming lack of evidence. Am I expected to suspend my critical faculties and just believe in a being such as Yahweh? If you suggest that the Yahweh hypothesis is correct, I would ‘examine, test and try’ it. I have already found huge parts of the bible and catholocism which disagree with my morals and ethics, so why accept it? It has not passed my tests.
I am not condemning those who have chosen belief, but consider for a moment that you would imagine me being condemned for all eternity for not believing what a certain group of men said about a certain book.

 

[_A]

I am going to have another go at describing it…
I don’t believe in the existence of the christian god.
I don’t believe in the existence of god.
I don’t believe that there is no god.
I don’t believe in god.
I don’t believe.

That last line says ‘I am an atheist’ most clearly, I think, but all are consistent with atheism.

I also don’t believe in quantum mechanics, astrology or the theory of gravity.

I will weigh evidence, and decide how to proceed case-by-case.

I think believing in things causes intellectual blindness.

Belief gets in the way of learning, more often than not.

 

[ralphinal]

I am going to have another go at describing it…
I don’t believe in the existence of the christian god.
I don’t believe in the existence of god.
I don’t believe that there is no god.
I don’t believe in god.
I don’t believe.

That last line says ‘I am an atheist’ most clearly, I think, but all are consistent with atheism.

I also don’t believe in quantum mechanics, astrology or the theory of gravity.

I will weigh evidence, and decide how to proceed case-by-case.

I think believing in things causes intellectual blindness.

Belief gets in the way of learning, more often than not.

I accept that as atheism. The type that says that there is no God like the Judeo-Christian God, but there may be another is undefensable. What is your issue with quantum mechanics and gravity? What is your occupation, if I may ask?

 

[_A]

I accept that as atheism. The type that says that there is no God like the Judeo-Christian God, but there may be another is undefensable.

The opposite is also true.

What is your issue with quantum mechanics and gravity?

I have no issue with them. I said that I do not believe in them. If I believed in newtonian mechanics, I would have been at a disadvantage trying to learn einstinian mechanics.

What is your occupation, if I may ask?

Now what in the world could that have to do with anything we have been discussing?

 

[PaulDupre]

Hi A,
I think it is easy for people to confuse atheism (which you have described well) with those who call themselves atheists but are really militant anti-theists. We get them here frequently. They are the ones who declare to anyone who will listen that it is a proven fact that there is no God. That type of anti-theism is a belief system just as theism is. That’s where the difficulty may arise.

Just my :twocents: ,
Paul

 

[ralphinal]

The opposite is also true. I have no issue with them. I said that I do not believe in them. If I believed in newtonian mechanics, I would have been at a disadvantage trying to learn einstinian mechanics.
Now what in the world could that have to do with anything we have been discussing?

Just a hunch that you might be an attorny, although that you havce studied physics, I am quite satisfied that you are of an acceptable occupation

 

[_A]

I am quite satisfied that you are of an acceptable occupation

Just what do you mean by this?

 

[_A]

Hi A,
I think it is easy for people to confuse atheism (which you have described well) with those who call themselves atheists but are really militant anti-theists. We get them here frequently. They are the ones who declare to anyone who will listen that it is a proven fact that there is no God. That type of anti-theism is a belief system just as theism is. That’s where the difficulty may arise.

Just my :twocents: ,
Paul

I would describe myself as an anti-theist, too. Not militant, since I don’t advocate force. Also, I am not against the notion of god so much as I am opposed to belief itself.

 

[PaulDupre]

I would describe myself as an anti-theist, too. Not militant, since I don’t advocate force. Also, I am not against the notion of god so much as I am opposed to belief itself.

You may change your mind about that someday.

You can’t deny all belief. You go to work every day because you believe that the company will still be in business and that you will get paid for your work. This is by no means certain. I have worked for a company that went belly-up and the employees never knew about it until they showed up for work and the company was closed and gone. You may not realize that you have a certain amount of belief in a great number of things.

When you order fries at McDonald’s, you believe that what you will get is really fried potatoes and not fried worms.

God bless,
Paul

 

[Pax]

…
…
I said that I do not believe in them. If I believed in newtonian mechanics, I would have been at a disadvantage trying to learn einstinian mechanics.
…
…

I believe it was Erik Hoffer who said that he gained many of his greatest insights by “exploring and arguing the opposite point of view.” Not everyone is handicapped by having a belief. Moreover, having to defend a belief is much more challenging than not having a belief that will never need to be defended.

You asked me if I believe in Allah and then you mentioned that I didn’t answer. Well, I will answer you now. I would give the same answer to this one that was given by Zerinus with a tiny bit more detail. Allah is merely the Arabic word for God. Moreover, Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just as Jews and Christians do. So yes, I believe in Allah but with the Christian understanding of the Trinity. This part is obviously not shared by our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters that also believe in the one God that created all things.

You have frequently mentioned Zeus and other Greek gods and even introduced the Spaghetti Monster into the discussion. You seem to think that belief in any of these is the equivalent to believing in the God of Christianity. The only commonality that exists here is your lack of belief in any god whatsoever. There are no commonalities between false gods and the one true God. This is especially clear because the false god mythologies themselves illustrate the point.

Greek mythology is a great example. The Greek gods all had human characteristics and frailties. They took cheap shots at each other and were subject to the petty jealousies of human beings. They were really human beings elevated to the status of a deity.

The one true God is not understood to be anything like the Greek myths and is clearly not an object/idol designed by man and made with human hands. The one true God is beyond all of that and He is eminently more believable because he is not like his creatures.

You are clearly right about one thing. No one will convince you that God exists. It will be God’s grace that will provide you with faith and understanding. Faith is an interesting phenomenon. It is its own evidence. It is a knowing that is quite real and powerful even though it does not depend upon the kind of empirical evidence that you demand. The physical evidence of the universe is sufficient empirical data, but you have indicated that you really don’t care about considering its origins.

Could it be that your own position may be holding you back in the same way that you think that believing newtonian mechanics will hold you back from learning einstinean mechanics? We all need open minds and hearts. The truth exists and God wants you to have the gift of faith so that you can know the truth.

 

[Laurence_of_PA]

Here’s how I’ve been viewing this AWESOME thread (no sarcasm intended) from the outside…above the water:

It’s beautiful really. The whole thing is playing out like a comedy wherein a dozen or so Christians – all experts in theology and well-versed in apologetics – face off against the most impregnable of unbelievers: the indifferent, *everyday *Atheist! Every bit of bait they try and lure him in with just gets spat out, so what do the Christians do? – the only thing they can do: Talk about FISHING!

…

But to be completely honest, I’ve been waiting for a thread like this, so if the water’s fine (and isn’t covered in ice) I’d like to jump in.

“A” is sort of communicating an idea that I myself have been trying to reconcile for months. Basically: How do you help bring people to God when none of that God/religion/cosmos/“meaning of everything” stuff really matters to them? Honestly, when you read the profiles of those who engage in serious Apologetic discussions here, you’ll notice that 4 out of 5 of them list “theology” as an interest. *Theology *as an interest? or should I say… AS A HOBBY?

I don’t mean to sound harsh when I say this, but WHAT *EVERYDAY *PERSON SITS AND READS ABOUT RELIGION AND EXISTENCE ALL DAY LONG? Even if A *is *nothing more than ignorant (no offense A; I hope this doesn’t get us off on the wrong foot), what does that say about the fate of ALL the everyday people whose belief’s conflict with the Church’s?..AND DON’T CARE!

To get to my point: if people can be good (we’ve established that A doesn’t have cooties, right) but haven’t been inspired by God to “seek His truth”, why does it matter if they do or don’t?

Even more bluntly: I kind of doubt that A is bound for damnation just because he lacks the “virtue” of belief.

 

[_A]

You go to work every day because you believe that the company will still be in business and that you will get paid for your work. This is by no means certain.

Correct. There is, however, overwhelming evidence to suggest that I can expect to get paid. The level of reasonable expectation is high enough, in fact, that banks, who are notoriously careful with their loans, will accept a letter from your boss about the state of your employment. The bank will often give such a document a fair amount of weight when considering your loan application.

I have worked for a company that went belly-up and the employees never knew about it until they showed up for work and the company was closed and gone. You may not realize that you have a certain amount of belief in a great number of things.

I realize, but it is not belief so much as reasonable expectation based on evidence available to everyone.

When you order fries at McDonald’s, you believe that what you will get is really fried potatoes and not fried worms.

I also generally expect them to charge a similar amount of money for a McSnack from day to day. This is again a reasonable expectation based on evidence available to everyone.

 

[PaulDupre]

Even more bluntly: I kind of doubt that A is bound for damnation just because he lacks the “virtue” of belief.

None of the Catholics here would believe or pronounce that anyone, including A, is “bound for damnation”. Catholics are not even allowed to speculate on who is damned and who isn’t. I would venture that A just hasn’t been called by God yet.

God bless,
Paul

 

[Pax]

Those are indeed reasonable expectations. There is, however, a certainty in life. That certainty is death. At the time of death you have a fifty/fifty chance of being right about the existence of God and life after death. There is a reasonable expectation that you are wrong about the existence of God.