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believers
Guest
Just look around. It’s obvious that matter exists. Scientist know for a fact that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. They’re so certain of it they call it a LAW. So how about all this matter that does exit? Where did it all come from if God didn’t created it? Have you ever checked out the human body? Do you realize how complex and beautifully created we are?
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Guest
I might be able to find such a bit of knowledge, but first you would have to define ‘god’. God is a word to describe a type of being (like Yahweh is a god, so is Allah, so is Zeus etc…) so just saying ‘god’ is not being specific enough. Which god do you mean, and what are that gods specific attributes?
The better your definition is, the more likely it will be that such a question can be devised.
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Guest
Because science gives us the internet, while religion gives us the inquisition.Science is a wonderful tool that helps us understand the physical universe and its laws. Why would one pick that tool to search for God? It doesn’t seem rational to me.
Daddums
Science gives us germ theory of disease. Religion offers demononic possession.
Science gives us space flight. Religion gives us a god who doesn’t understand cosmology. (remember the catholics excommunicating Gallileo? What was that about?)
Science gives us Norman Borlaug. Religion offers Mother Theresa
I will take what science has to offer any day. Religion fails in every important way to exceed the accomplishments of science.
What important discoveries or accomplishments can faith lay claim to? I know it takes credit for a lot, but what does it really offer us by way of knowledge if the book was finished so long ago, and with so many errors?
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Guest
I have seen a much more beautiful and complete theory of our design explained with no god mentioned.
Are you trying to say that because something looks complex, it must have a designer?
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dolphinlove
Guest
If you ever get the chance, you should come to Australia/New Zealand for some fishing, we have some pretty good fishing here, esp up in the northern territory, there are places up there that dont have people around for miles and there is tons of fish!
Only thing you will have to look out for are the poisonous snakes/spiders and crocs… so it makes the trip… interesting…
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Guest
I would like to visit those places. I think they are about the only places that really hold appeal for me aside from Canada. I enjoy being in an area that has such wide open spaces and I enjoy the feeling that I might be the first guy in a few hundred years to step across a certain place. I don’t think I am explaining it well, but it feels like it’s mine then.
The crocs, spiders and snakes sound like a bit of a bother. I am used to carrying a kit to deal with these ,so I would simply have to adjust it to local conditions, learn a whole lot about the specific dangers and bring someone who knows whats what.
If I did, I think it would be a few years off…it happens to be almost as far as I could go from home on commercial airlines.
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Pax
Guest
You apparently wish to move on, but from my vantage point you have merely compounded your first difficulties.
I am not trying to change scripture, nor do I think that scripture can be changed. What I am attempting to do is give you some perspective on understanding what scripture says. So far IMHO it is clear that you have little or no experience with scripture.
I would argue that you are not looking at scripture properly and that you are thus understanding it improperly. Your approach is that of a literalist. You are taking a passage and saying this is what it says, so this is what it means. Scripture has many nuances and levels of meaning. Most importantly we must read it as a whole in order to get the message.
The “literalist” takes the words out of their linguistic environment and subsequently strips them of their intended meaning. You have done exactly the same kind of thing when you attempted to put an errant literalist spin on Deuteronomy 6:14-15. Obviously, God prohibits us from going “…after other gods…” but this does not mean that these gods are anything more than mere idols made by human hands. That is precisely why I gave you a quote in my previous post demonstrating that the other “so called gods” are nothing more than objects made of wood and stone, and of human hands.
Your sarcasm is silly. You dismissed what I have said about the one true God vs. man made idols. You did this again by taking an uninformed and literalist view of Genesis 3:22.
The verse says:
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil…”
This verse does not mean that God recognizes other competing deities like himself. We must explore what the term “us” refers to in the context of the entire book of Genesis as well as the entire bible. Genesis 3:22 is one of the earliest scriptural indications of the Trinitarian nature of God. IMHO you should already know that, and I wonder why you would choose to argue in this fashion.
There is wonderful subtlety in the original Hebrew that does not come through in the English which you need to be aware of within the Book of Genesis and elsewhere in the OT.
The same plural pronoun “us” occurs in Genesis 1:26 which says:
" Then God said, “Let us make man in our image,”
Once again this is a reference to the Trinity and this understanding of the nature of God continues to be more fully revealed in the New Testament. The earliest intimation of the Trinity is in the first verse of Scripture in the name God or (Hebrew) Elohim. This is a plural noun but associated with a singular verb, thus suggesting the idea of plurality in unity.
You need to be aware of these things in order to make proper sense of the scriptures. Please try not to be so flippant about scripture even if you do not believe in God. The meaning of scripture is best understood by the Jews and Christians that wrote it and their followers that believe that it is the inspired word of God. Learning the Jewish and Christian understandings will give you many insights about what the intended meanings happen to be.
I am willing to move on to other parts of scripture once we clear the air on your false proposition that scripture says that there is more than one God. Idols are false gods[notice the small “g”] made of human hands out of earthly materials. They are not true deities that compete with the one true God in the sense that you propose. This is at least the understanding of Christians and Jews, and they wrote the book under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I hope this helps.
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Guest
I can read, your interpretation is suspect, I will try to explain why. You are quite unlikely to ‘interpret’ scripture in a way that would not further your own goals. I can read the same words and interpret things differently. Many other branches of religion do exactly this.
I was looking at it with my eyes. That is the proper way.
See, this gets you out of any serious critique of the bible. You simply change the meaning until observed reality doesn’t conflict any longer.
Cognitive dissonance is not something to ignore.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I would like to present some rational arguments for belief in GodAllahYHWH presented in Quran by GodAllahYHWH Himself, to start with the first argument ( this would also make a comparison with the OTBible and NTBible, which are though voluminous as compared to Quran, yet they don’t have any such arguments to present.):
The Holy Quran : Chapter 14: Ibrahim
[14:11] The Messengers said, 'Are you in doubt concerning Allah, Maker of the heavens and the earth? He calls you that He may forgive you your sins and grant you respite till an appointed term.’ They said, ‘You are but mortals like us, you desire to turn us away from that which our fathers used to worship. Bring us, then, some clear proof.’
[14:12] Their Messengers said to them, 'We are indeed only mortals like you but Allah bestows His favours on whomsoever He wills from among His servants. And it is not for us to bring you a proof except by the permission of Allah. And in Allah alone should the believers put their trust;
[14:13] 'And why should we not put our trust in Allah when He has showed us our appropriate ways? And we will, surely, bear with patience all the harm you do to us. So, in Allah let those who trust put their trust. ’
Unquote
Thanks
I would like to present some rational arguments for belief in GodAllahYHWH presented in Quran by GodAllahYHWH Himself, to start with the first argument ( this would also make a comparison with the OTBible and NTBible, which are though voluminous as compared to Quran, yet they don’t have any such arguments to present.):
The Holy Quran : Chapter 14: Ibrahim
[14:11] The Messengers said, 'Are you in doubt concerning Allah, Maker of the heavens and the earth? He calls you that He may forgive you your sins and grant you respite till an appointed term.’ They said, ‘You are but mortals like us, you desire to turn us away from that which our fathers used to worship. Bring us, then, some clear proof.’
[14:12] Their Messengers said to them, 'We are indeed only mortals like you but Allah bestows His favours on whomsoever He wills from among His servants. And it is not for us to bring you a proof except by the permission of Allah. And in Allah alone should the believers put their trust;
[14:13] 'And why should we not put our trust in Allah when He has showed us our appropriate ways? And we will, surely, bear with patience all the harm you do to us. So, in Allah let those who trust put their trust. ’
Unquote
Thanks
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repo_man
Guest
i fail to see how this is related.and in all honesty the inquisition was not nearly as bad as everyone claims it was. the most extensive research into the inquisition reveals that roughly 2000 people were killed over the course of 350 years. which is too much … but it’s not really a massacre of genocide as people such as yourself make it out to be. you know how many people died in the hiroshima/nagasaki bombings? about 70,000 on impact? 200,000 people due to long term effects by the 1960s? economics may start the wars, and religion may justify the wars, but science is accountable for increasing the death tolls. you have to take the bad with the good. i’m not anti-science but it’s clear it’s not an angel when it comes to solving conflicts.
so you’re comparing the science of today to religious ideas of the 12 century. because medicine of the middle ages was largely based, not on christian dogma, but on the greek idea of the four humors and provided us with the flawless idea of bleeding people.
Science gives us space flight. Religion gives us a god who doesn’t understand cosmology. (remember the catholics excommunicating Gallileo? What was that about?)
actually he was never excommunicated. and though he was deterred (though prison is a stretch, his contemporary biographer who was a protestant claims he lived in a very nice little apartment thing), he was never condemned with a papal signature so he was not condemned by ‘the church’. he was asked to stop teaching copernicus’ theories (who was also a lifelong catholic and never experienced trouble from the popes of his day and in fact dedicated his book of the theory to pope paul III for making it possible).
it was another lame italian inquisition thing. and like i said the inquisition was lame. even if it is grossly overexaggerated.
with the presupposition that science and catholicism are both true, and science is a tool of god, science is therefore used to more deeply understand the bible. it sounds like a copout to you because you see it differently. as JPII said, “science can purify religion of superstition and error.”
not to mention that the psalms used to defend geocentrism are … psalms. they’re poetry.
you seemed like a nice guy at the beginning now you’re just being a … well i can’t say. but anyway my question to you:
how do you like your steak?
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Pax
Guest
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With all do respect, I must point out that you have done nothing to refute my post. Try following the logical rules of critical analysis. When it comes to scripture this is called hermeneutics and exegesis.
Interpretations are not created equal. If you really think that I am twisting the passages for my own purposes then I suggest you prove that. So far your position on the scriptures is untenable and you have done nothing to prove otherwise.
Your atheism finds no support in scripture and any attempts to use scripture to chip away at the existence of God is silly. Your multiple gods gambit is a nonstarter when using the bible. This is obvious even to the casual observer.
With all do respect, I must point out that you have done nothing to refute my post. Try following the logical rules of critical analysis. When it comes to scripture this is called hermeneutics and exegesis.
Interpretations are not created equal. If you really think that I am twisting the passages for my own purposes then I suggest you prove that. So far your position on the scriptures is untenable and you have done nothing to prove otherwise.
Your atheism finds no support in scripture and any attempts to use scripture to chip away at the existence of God is silly. Your multiple gods gambit is a nonstarter when using the bible. This is obvious even to the casual observer.
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believers
Guest
Actually… it doesn’t have to be complex. It could be a rock. How do you suppose the rock came into existence? A big bang? nope… science says matter can neither be created nor destroyed… so no big bang. It was God. It’s all in His Word.
Anyway, please don’t leave this world without really knowing Jesus. Ask Jesus to save you. God Bless you.
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bobzills
Guest
If man is pure material and nothing else, how is he able to come up with inventions and discoveries such as the internet or cures for diseases. How do you explain his consciousness and ability for rational thought ? I don’t see how a purely material being would be able to develop on its own, a mathematical theory of gravity and have it verified by the perihelion advance of Mercury or the deflection of light by the sun.
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Daddums
Guest
Actually no. If I were sole arbitor of what constitues eviidence and reasons I could reject any of either that were offered but that would not accomplish anything positive. Communicating clearly and discerning truth are more important to me than winning arguments.
Your explanations have been very clear and they have helped me to understand some things. Thank you.
Daddums
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PatrickRabe
Guest
Hi -A-,
Iwant just to reply from this quote. I cannot say that I am purely a beleiver in the Bible, but I was taught in the christian religion.
Few months ago, I underwent a great deal with all my faith.
Right now, I am trying to get up from where I fell down.
I beleive God exists, whatever you may say, I beleive in God whoever He is.
I was looking at the mountain, at the fishes, at the lions, at our dog, at the flowers and I found they are wonderful. God is a mistery, we do not know precisely who is He, but He revealed Himself in what He created when we have difficulty to beleive in the scripture, in the Bible or in other scriptures. Even if we may have doubt in the truthfulness of these writtings, we cannot deny that the world is wonderful and would not come from nothing or would just exists from evolution. Whatever we may think, we will be lead to the thought that the way how everything exists is wonderful. Yes, science helps us to understand the nature which is the creation of a very intelligent, complex, superior force that our mind cannot embrace. Whatever we will say, all of these come from a very wonderful creator. And the contrary will be just a mere opposition about the existence of God. You cannot deny the existence of God.
I have a question for you, why do you really want to defend your position as Atheist? Is it not obvious for you that a lovable God - Creator of what we see and even what we do not see - whoever is He exists?
What I suggest you is this, ask to this Sovereignity to make you know who is He or what He wants. Do not be just stuck on your saying: “I do not beleive in god! I am an atheist”. You seem to be curious in the science - the science is a way to understand the nature, the creation - Why just not try to ask this wonderful creator whoever is He, what is His purpose. I wish He will answer you but keep on following what He reveals to you, even step by step.
And may be one day, you will be also lead to bow down before His face.
Iwant just to reply from this quote. I cannot say that I am purely a beleiver in the Bible, but I was taught in the christian religion.
Few months ago, I underwent a great deal with all my faith.
Right now, I am trying to get up from where I fell down.
I beleive God exists, whatever you may say, I beleive in God whoever He is.
I was looking at the mountain, at the fishes, at the lions, at our dog, at the flowers and I found they are wonderful. God is a mistery, we do not know precisely who is He, but He revealed Himself in what He created when we have difficulty to beleive in the scripture, in the Bible or in other scriptures. Even if we may have doubt in the truthfulness of these writtings, we cannot deny that the world is wonderful and would not come from nothing or would just exists from evolution. Whatever we may think, we will be lead to the thought that the way how everything exists is wonderful. Yes, science helps us to understand the nature which is the creation of a very intelligent, complex, superior force that our mind cannot embrace. Whatever we will say, all of these come from a very wonderful creator. And the contrary will be just a mere opposition about the existence of God. You cannot deny the existence of God.
I have a question for you, why do you really want to defend your position as Atheist? Is it not obvious for you that a lovable God - Creator of what we see and even what we do not see - whoever is He exists?
What I suggest you is this, ask to this Sovereignity to make you know who is He or what He wants. Do not be just stuck on your saying: “I do not beleive in god! I am an atheist”. You seem to be curious in the science - the science is a way to understand the nature, the creation - Why just not try to ask this wonderful creator whoever is He, what is His purpose. I wish He will answer you but keep on following what He reveals to you, even step by step.
And may be one day, you will be also lead to bow down before His face.
S
Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I can see A that you are carrying on several conversations and are excellent at multitasking. I appreciate your respect and consideration for each of us.
What i had in mind was a personal God who is omniscient. I suppose this definition is broad enough to apply to the God of Muslims, Protestant Christians, Catholics, and Jewish people. Some might say this definition applies to Zeus, but Socrates disagreed of course.
The reason why i am asking these questions is to respond to your presumption that it is impossible to prove that God exists. I’m considering carefully whether what you claim is true. My line of reasoning is that if one were to provide information that only an omniscient God would know, then that would be strong evidence that this God is indeed real. Whether this God is Allah or YHWH or Jesus is immaterial, as we are only considering whether an omniscient God is actual and not what religious beliefs understand him or her or it best.
What is it, then, that an omniscient God would know that you or i can never know unless this God reveals it to us? What is it that this all-knowing God (if this God exists) would know with certainty at which you or i could only guess?
I understand you have others to whom you want to respond besides myself. If you do not have the time or patience to think deeply about this, let me know and i will suggest the answer. You may then show me whether my idea has merit or my logic is flawed.
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bogoljub
Guest
God bless !
5.Sience will never be able to explain where the cosmos is really coming from - sience has many theories but not really facts !
You did not look into the Bible to find the truth you looked into the Bible to find the truth of your concept.
8.You only mentioned some errors/mistakes/sins wich occoured in the christian religion/through christians - do you think this is fair ? I think it is not. Of course the christians made many mistakes and errors but that’s normal you will find such mistakes everywhere. And you do not mention all the good christians, or the great Saints and their good deeds and all the profits the secular society had received from them.
I think you never tried really to get into the arguments ?
IN CHRIST
- I want to say that you denied that you believe - that there is no God ! But it is a believe, because you have no proof.
- You make many mistakes even in History - the first unitversities and sienitistic Labors were established by priests and monks.
5.Sience will never be able to explain where the cosmos is really coming from - sience has many theories but not really facts !
- That you are guided by wrong concepts I can see from the fact that you quote Texts from scripture before you even agreed to accept God - do you think you will understand Holy Scripture without the teaching of God ??? a bit foolish.
You did not look into the Bible to find the truth you looked into the Bible to find the truth of your concept.
8.You only mentioned some errors/mistakes/sins wich occoured in the christian religion/through christians - do you think this is fair ? I think it is not. Of course the christians made many mistakes and errors but that’s normal you will find such mistakes everywhere. And you do not mention all the good christians, or the great Saints and their good deeds and all the profits the secular society had received from them.
I think you never tried really to get into the arguments ?
IN CHRIST
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