I am an atheist

[_A]

Hi

I would like to present some rational arguments for belief in GodAllahYHWH presented in Quran by GodAllahYHWH Himself, to start with the first argument ( this would also make a comparison with the OTBible and NTBible, which are though voluminous as compared to Quran, yet they don’t have any such arguments to present.):

The Holy Quran : Chapter 14: Ibrahim
[14:11] The Messengers said, 'Are you in doubt concerning Allah, Maker of the heavens and the earth? He calls you that He may forgive you your sins and grant you respite till an appointed term.’ They said, ‘You are but mortals like us, you desire to turn us away from that which our fathers used to worship. Bring us, then, some clear proof.’
[14:12] Their Messengers said to them, 'We are indeed only mortals like you but Allah bestows His favours on whomsoever He wills from among His servants. And it is not for us to bring you a proof except by the permission of Allah. And in Allah alone should the believers put their trust;
[14:13] 'And why should we not put our trust in Allah when He has showed us our appropriate ways? And we will, surely, bear with patience all the harm you do to us. So, in Allah let those who trust put their trust. ’
Unquote

Thanks

Doesn’t that book of yours say something about a womans testimony being worth less than a mans?
That makes your Quran about as true as any other horror story.
By the way, what does the Quran say should be done with apostates?

 

[_A]

i fail to see how this is related.and in all honesty the inquisition was not nearly as bad as everyone claims it was. the most extensive research into the inquisition reveals that roughly 2000 people were killed over the course of 350 years. which is too much … but it’s not really a massacre of genocide as people such as yourself make it out to be. you know how many people died in the hiroshima/nagasaki bombings? about 70,000 on impact? 200,000 people due to long term effects by the 1960s? economics may start the wars, and religion may justify the wars, but science is accountable for increasing the death tolls. you have to take the bad with the good. i’m not anti-science but it’s clear it’s not an angel when it comes to solving conflicts.

OK, how about the current inquisition that Pastor Bush is running in the Middle East? Didn’t he have another great preacher (Ted Haggard) helping him?

so you’re comparing the science of today to religious ideas of the 12 century. because medicine of the middle ages was largely based, not on christian dogma, but on the greek idea of the four humors and provided us with the flawless idea of bleeding people.

Todays medical advancements from religion? What does the catholic church recommend about sex education? What are the church officials saying about condoms in Africa?

actually he was never excommunicated. and though he was deterred (though prison is a stretch, his contemporary biographer who was a protestant claims he lived in a very nice little apartment thing), he was never condemned with a papal signature so he was not condemned by ‘the church’. he was asked to stop teaching copernicus’ theories (who was also a lifelong catholic and never experienced trouble from the popes of his day and in fact dedicated his book of the theory to pope paul III for making it possible).

it was another lame italian inquisition thing. and like i said the inquisition was lame. even if it is grossly overexaggerated.

He was imprisoned (though it may have been a nice prison). The reason was that he was unfortunate enough to discover and publish a place where the church teachings were wrong.

with the presupposition that science and catholicism are both true,

That statement is so far from right it gives it too much credit to say that it is wrong. Neither is TRUE(though science is correct an awful lot more than religion)

and science is a tool of god, science is therefore used to more deeply understand the bible. it sounds like a copout to you because you see it differently. as JPII said, “science can purify religion of superstition and error.”

OK, so someone noticed that the church will never be able to oppose science. Smart guy. Now lets see what he says about abortion (I am betting not progressive, but let’s look in countries where the church has more influence, and see how gentle their policies are. I think the catholics have had much influence in Ireland. Let’s see how progressive the laws there are compared to, say, Canada.
Abortion, Divorce, the Magdellan Laundries?
I wouldn’t want the church getting any more power.

not to mention that the psalms used to defend geocentrism are … psalms. they’re poetry.

Again, you are choosing what to take literally from the bible and what to treat as poetry. Did some god personally tell you how to choose, or was it some other person?

you seemed like a nice guy at the beginning now you’re just being a … well i can’t say. but anyway my question to you:

how do you like your steak?

I am a really nice guy, but I wont pretend to respect ideas which don’t earn any respect.
I like my steak well-done.
I have tried to answer any questions asked of me here, I want to make clear that I will answer why I am an atheist, I will show where I have seen contradictions or outright horrors in the bible, but I am not going to try to disprove the bible through it’s inconsistancies and horrors. I don’t have to. It is only a book. Anyone who believes it to be more would have to present evidence to me. There is none, unless you count the fact that lots of people who don’t read the bible offer tithy every week.
What did the steak have to do with anything lol.
I hope it was just to lighten the tension, as it seems.

 

[_A]

Actually… it doesn’t have to be complex. It could be a rock. How do you suppose the rock came into existence? A big bang? nope… science says matter can neither be created nor destroyed… so no big bang. It was God. It’s all in His Word.

Anyway, please don’t leave this world without really knowing Jesus. Ask Jesus to save you. God Bless you.

I did ask…dead quiet came back.
So how did god get started? Or are you going to stop using the ‘laws’ of science here and say that he just IS?

 

[_A]

If man is pure material and nothing else, how is he able to come up with inventions and discoveries such as the internet or cures for diseases. How do you explain his consciousness and ability for rational thought ? I don’t see how a purely material being would be able to develop on its own, a mathematical theory of gravity and have it verified by the perihelion advance of Mercury or the deflection of light by the sun.

Argument from incredulity? I think just because you can’t imagine it is not relevant to anything.

 

[_A]

Hi -A-,

Iwant just to reply from this quote. I cannot say that I am purely a beleiver in the Bible, but I was taught in the christian religion.
Few months ago, I underwent a great deal with all my faith.
Right now, I am trying to get up from where I fell down.

I beleive God exists, whatever you may say, I beleive in God whoever He is.
I was looking at the mountain, at the fishes, at the lions, at our dog, at the flowers and I found they are wonderful. God is a mistery, we do not know precisely who is He, but He revealed Himself in what He created when we have difficulty to beleive in the scripture, in the Bible or in other scriptures. Even if we may have doubt in the truthfulness of these writtings, we cannot deny that the world is wonderful and would not come from nothing or would just exists from evolution. Whatever we may think, we will be lead to the thought that the way how everything exists is wonderful. Yes, science helps us to understand the nature which is the creation of a very intelligent, complex, superior force that our mind cannot embrace. Whatever we will say, all of these come from a very wonderful creator. And the contrary will be just a mere opposition about the existence of God. You cannot deny the existence of God.

I have a question for you, why do you really want to defend your position as Atheist? Is it not obvious for you that a lovable God - Creator of what we see and even what we do not see - whoever is He exists?

What I suggest you is this, ask to this Sovereignity to make you know who is He or what He wants. Do not be just stuck on your saying: “I do not beleive in god! I am an atheist”. You seem to be curious in the science - the science is a way to understand the nature, the creation - Why just not try to ask this wonderful creator whoever is He, what is His purpose. I wish He will answer you but keep on following what He reveals to you, even step by step.

And may be one day, you will be also lead to bow down before His face.

If it all is too beautiful to appear without a designer, who designed your god?

 

[_A]

I can see A that you are carrying on several conversations and are excellent at multitasking. I appreciate your respect and consideration for each of us.

What i had in mind was a personal God who is omniscient. I suppose this definition is broad enough to apply to the God of Muslims, Protestant Christians, Catholics, and Jewish people. Some might say this definition applies to Zeus, but Socrates disagreed of course.

The reason why i am asking these questions is to respond to your presumption that it is impossible to prove that God exists. I’m considering carefully whether what you claim is true. My line of reasoning is that if one were to provide information that only an omniscient God would know, then that would be strong evidence that this God is indeed real. Whether this God is Allah or YHWH or Jesus is immaterial, as we are only considering whether an omniscient God is actual and not what religious beliefs understand him or her or it best.

What is it, then, that an omniscient God would know that you or i can never know unless this God reveals it to us? What is it that this all-knowing God (if this God exists) would know with certainty at which you or i could only guess?

I understand you have others to whom you want to respond besides myself. If you do not have the time or patience to think deeply about this, let me know and i will suggest the answer. You may then show me whether my idea has merit or my logic is flawed.

If omniscient, he created sin, hell and cancer, all for what? He would have known the outcome anyway, he knows all. He knowingly created original sin, then punishes everyone for it. Great guy, this Yahweh.

Ok, what would he know that no-one else could? Impossible to say, I think, because if we humans can devise a question, we humans can answer it, given enough time and persons working on it. I think this makes the ‘knowledge trial’ impossible. A man from 20 centuries in the future would look godlike in his knowledge, but would still be a man.
If I met Yahweh in person, I would refuse to worship. Even if he had ID.

 

[bogoljub]

If omniscient, he created sin, hell and cancer, all for what? He would have known the outcome anyway, he knows all. He knowingly created original sin, then punishes everyone for it. Great guy, this Yahweh.

Ok, what would he know that no-one else could? Impossible to say, I think, because if we humans can devise a question, we humans can answer it, given enough time and persons working on it. I think this makes the ‘knowledge trial’ impossible. A man from 20 centuries in the future would look godlike in his knowledge, but would still be a man.
If I met Yahweh in person, I would refuse to worship. Even if he had ID.

God bless !

The same again here.
You deny the existence of God and think you can understand the teaching of the Chuch - that’s really foolish.

Yes he can do everything but he does not take away our free will.
So he created you -he had known you before you were born and and he had known that you will deny and refuse him but he created you- you will tell me that he is not a loving God.

The problem is that you do not try to understand - or to search for truth - because NO ONE understand all teachings in the beginning but you did not even made a beginning - and I can not help but I think you will never have a beginning - you are too decepted by your hatred and mis-concepts of God.

Please forgive me but HOW DUMB is it to say would I meet God I would not worshipp- do u think you know better than God what is good for people and what is not - so proud.
I know people who “met” him and believe me you would be the first who would worship.

God never created any “bad” thing like cancer, illness, pain,…but he has given us free will - and this include also that we hurt us and others. Sad but true.

In CHRIST

 

[_A]

God bless !

1. I want to say that you denied that you believe - that there is no God ! But it is a believe, because you have no proof.

I will try to explain again. I DON’T believe. If you offer me proof, such as you might offer for gravity, I would still not believe in gravity. I might use the best existing theory of gravity to help me make predictions, but if it stopped yielding accurate predictions, I would start looking for a more accurate theory.

2.In this discussion your arguments are always guided by your mis-concept of God and Religion.

I read the bible. It was not a misrepresentation that I read. This is where my concept of Yahweh and religion comes from. Where would you suggest I learn, if not from the bible?

1. You make many mistakes even in History - the first unitversities and sienitistic Labors were established by priests and monks.

Which proves nothing. Religion, as a rule, stands in the way of progress - such as the churches stance on stem cell research.

4.Sience will never be able to tell u if there is a God or not - NEVER.

It has already. Every falsifiable claim that the churches have made, has been falsified. If there is yet a claim which the church or bible makes which is falsifiable yet has not been falsified, provide it and I will get to work.

5.Sience will never be able to explain where the cosmos is really coming from - sience has many theories but not really facts !

Science has theories, yes. It asks all that practice to prove these theories wrong. If one is disproved, science requires that we move on to a better theory.

1. That you are guided by wrong concepts I can see from the fact that you quote Texts from scripture before you even agreed to accept God - do you think you will understand Holy Scripture without the teaching of God ??? a bit foolish.

Just what do you mean by ‘accept god’? If you can describe it more exactly, I can tell you if I have done it or not. By the way, calling me foolish does not help your case sound more reasonable.

7.You should first search if there is a God ánd what this God is like and able to do…than you can go on to search wich religion is the right one - were u can find truth…but not searching in Holy Scripture for passages wich are comfartable with your errors.
You did not look into the Bible to find the truth you looked into the Bible to find the truth of your concept.

I looked at the bible critically. I think that is how it should be viewed. How do you think I should read it? With someone of your choice telling me what it really means?

8.You only mentioned some errors/mistakes/sins wich occoured in the christian religion/through christians - do you think this is fair ? I think it is not. Of course the christians made many mistakes and errors but that’s normal you will find such mistakes everywhere. And you do not mention all the good christians, or the great Saints and their good deeds and all the profits the secular society had received from them.

Let me make this clear, too. I think persons are GREAT! Christians, atheists and jews…they are truly awe-inspiring. The dislike you no doubt picked up on is a dislike for religion and dogma.

 

[_A]

God bless !

The same again here.
You deny the existence of God and think you can understand the teaching of the Chuch - that’s really foolish.

Yes he can do everything but he does not take away our free will.
So he created you -he had known you before you were born and and he had known that you will deny and refuse him but he created you- you will tell me that he is not a loving God.

The problem is that you do not try to understand - or to search for truth - because NO ONE understand all teachings in the beginning but you did not even made a beginning - and I can not help but I think you will never have a beginning - you are too decepted by your hatred and mis-concepts of God.

Please forgive me but HOW DUMB is it to say would I meet God I would not worshipp- do u think you know better than God what is good for people and what is not - so proud.
I know people who “met” him and believe me you would be the first who would worship.

God never created any “bad” thing like cancer, illness, pain,…but he has given us free will - and this include also that we hurt us and others. Sad but true.

In CHRIST

Yahweh created original sin, then he placed a couple of beings where they could commit it, then he decided to punish everyone who ever lived for the crime he ‘set up’.
Worship? Why?

 

[bogoljub]

I will try to explain again. I DON’T believe. If you offer me proof, such as you might offer for gravity, I would still not believe in gravity. I might use the best existing theory of gravity to help me make predictions, but if it stopped yielding accurate predictions, I would start looking for a more accurate theory.I read the bible. It was not a misrepresentation that I read. This is where my concept of Yahweh and religion comes from. Where would you suggest I learn, if not from the bible?Which proves nothing. Religion, as a rule, stands in the way of progress - such as the churches stance on stem cell research.
It has already. Every falsifiable claim that the churches have made, has been falsified. If there is yet a claim which the church or bible makes which is falsifiable yet has not been falsified, provide it and I will get to work.Science has theories, yes. It asks all that practice to prove these theories wrong. If one is disproved, science requires that we move on to a better theory.Just what do you mean by ‘accept god’? If you can describe it more exactly, I can tell you if I have done it or not. By the way, calling me foolish does not help your case sound more reasonable.I looked at the bible critically. I think that is how it should be viewed. How do you think I should read it? With someone of your choice telling me what it really means?
Let me make this clear, too. I think persons are GREAT! Christians, atheists and jews…they are truly awe-inspiring. The dislike you no doubt picked up on is a dislike for religion and dogma.

God bless u !

Again I tell u you believe if u like it or not - it is a fact !

You did not read the Bibel critically you read it with your concept - that’s a difference. You interprete the things you are looking for in the Scripture- let me tell u again -without even accepting that there could be a God you will never understand Scripture. I can see that you misinterprete many things not only Scripture - the God you present to us is not my God - it is the God of your interpretion. You can learn from the Bible but you looked not with open heart and mind for God in Bible you looked how you can satisfy your anger against him.

You did not read Bible critically - NO.

I did not say that it is a kind of proof but you said in your other post that sience is good…and you said like sience is contrary Religion and I want to show you that sience is not contrary religion and that the sience was founded also by priests and monks.

When u can not see that it is foolish to read a book about God -when you even deny that he can exists. You can not understand it with the right concept of God otherwise ( as we can see from u) you will be lead in the contrary direction. Also devils know the Bible !

First you should put aside all anger and mis-concepts and try with open heart and open mind to find God and if there is one - you should make one step atfer the other and not begin with step 20 !

We can help u to make this steps but you have to go your own - we can not go for you !

But I can not help - I have the impression you do not want to find him - like you have said; IF I WOULD MEET HIM I WOULD NOT WORSHIPP.

So what do u really want ? To understand why we believe - let me tell you-you will never understand, when you go the way not yourself.

How can I tell someone what love is when he never experienced it or how can I tell someone what pain is when he never had pain…

In CHRIST

 

[bogoljub]

Yahweh created original sin, then he placed a couple of beings where they could commit it, then he decided to punish everyone who ever lived for the crime he ‘set up’.
Worship? Why?

God bless !

Sorry but it is really funny ! You try to tell us what God is like and what he did ? What nonsense - it would be when a blind tells someone seeing the sun -what the sun is and what not .

How can u speak about God and his works when he does not exist - you are contradicting yourself.

In CHRIST

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If omniscient, he created sin, hell and cancer, all for what? He would have known the outcome anyway, he knows all. He knowingly created original sin, then punishes everyone for it. Great guy, this Yahweh.

Ok, what would he know that no-one else could? Impossible to say, I think, because if we humans can devise a question, we humans can answer it, given enough time and persons working on it. I think this makes the ‘knowledge trial’ impossible. A man from 20 centuries in the future would look godlike in his knowledge, but would still be a man.
If I met Yahweh in person, I would refuse to worship. Even if he had ID.

Well, you have indirectly touched on the answer i was considering. If God exists, then this omniscient being would be able to tell you anything about this one from the future you described, because only a God who knows all would know the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.

I suppose then that i would say this to the person who claims God speaks to him: “Prove it, then. God knows the future, so tell me something about the future that only God would know and you could never guess.”

Would you say this is a fair litmus test to apply to anyone making the wild claim that God exists and actually spoke to him? Maybe you have a better test. If you do, please let me know.

 

[_A]

God bless !

The same again here.
You deny the existence of God and think you can understand the teaching of the Chuch - that’s really foolish.

I don’t deny the existence of your god. I question it - so far no clear answers have been offered to me. Most people just say I should believe. I am still waiting for evidence. I will question everything until I have sufficient evidence to stop questioning.

 

[_A]

God bless !

that’s really foolish.

you do not try to understand - or to search for truth

• you are too decepted by your hatred
  Please forgive me but HOW DUMB is it to say would I meet God I would not worshipp-
  In CHRIST

If you can’t reduce the insults, I will be tempted to insult you back. Over your lack of skill with spelling, perhaps.
Keep your insults to yourself, and we can continue to get along.

 

[_A]

Well, you have indirectly touched on the answer i was considering. If God exists, then this omniscient being would be able to tell you anything about this one from the future you described, because only a God who knows all would know the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time.

I suppose then that i would say this to the person who claims God speaks to him: “Prove it, then. God knows the future, so tell me something about the future that only God would know and you could never guess.”

Would you say this is a fair litmus test to apply to anyone making the wild claim that God exists and actually spoke to him? Maybe you have a better test. If you do, please let me know.

It isn’t bad, but it is quite open to manipulation. The bible did make prophecies ( I mean Yahweh in his ‘Jesus’ apparition) about the second coming being in Peters lifetime - it was wrong. That one simple item can prove the bible stories wrong - despite the fact that others will just say that I didn’t read it correctlyl.

 

[_A]

In short, and mainly in response to Socrates4Jesus, I would like to tell you about a litmus test that I have found useful.
If someone has faith in the bible or a god, that is OK.
If someone says that they know something about Yahweh, they are lying, and likely lying for profit. The RC church I grew up with made it clear that Yahweh would not offer evidence, because it was supposed to be taken on faith.
It is not perfect, but it has served me well, and I would offer that (imperfect) advice to anyone trying to avoid charlatans disguised as spiritualists.

 

[RedSoxFan]

I would be much more careful. I would also likely investigate who was trying to harm me, and address that problem.
I don’t, and won’t pray, so this is not a realistic situation. I would not taste things to identify them. I would think it was unusual. To be honest, though, since it is a man-made statue, I would attribute the effect to the artist, even if I did not understand it. Perhaps especially when I don’t understand it.
I would first like to know what makes me decide that I am seeing a person and not an hallucination. If I know that it is not a real person, I would rush to a diagnostic of my brain. Hallucinations or ‘visions’ are sometimes a sign of brain damage - I did just fall off my donkey…

In the bible, Yahweh indicates that Lot is righteous. Why would a righteous man, when tossing his daughters to a mob for the purpose of protecting strangers, bother to tell them that the girls were virgin? Why does Yahweh think what Lot and his daughters did later is the recipe for a righteous man?

LOL! Well those first two happened to me, but then again I always believed. As for the Lot question I’ll get back to you in a little bit. Horribly busy with the holidays comming up.

 

[bobzills]

Argument from incredulity? I think just because you can’t imagine it is not relevant to anything.

You avoided my question.

 

[_A]

You avoided my question.

Sorry about that, I thought I did. You offered an argument from incredulity - not logical. If I missed a question, please rephrase. I am trying to answer many questions here, from several folks who seem to be curious about atheism.

 

[_A]

If man is pure material and nothing else, how is he able to come up with inventions and discoveries such as the internet or cures for diseases. How do you explain his consciousness and ability for rational thought ? I don’t see how a purely material being would be able to develop on its own, a mathematical theory of gravity and have it verified by the perihelion advance of Mercury or the deflection of light by the sun.

I will have another try at this, bobzills, but really, it is a logical fallacy called ‘argument from incredulity’. Let me use the lay terms that I am more familiar with…
All of this you don’t ‘see’ because you can’t imagine a life without having a god in it. How do you explain a god making something from nothing? How do you explain a god who creates something, yet has no creator of his own.