I am an atheist

[_A]

That figure was arrived at by independent non-LDS sources; but that is not really the most important consideration here. The point I was trying to make is that it is a fast growing church (even if it is not the fastest), and therefore there are no shortages of people who are willing to listen to our message. Our message is intended for those who are willing to hear it and act upon it—and there are plenty of those. If somebody is an atheist or whatever, and is not interested in our message, it is not our job to argue with them. Their fate remains in the hand of God. Our job is to take our message to those who are willing to hear it.

zerinus

It sounds a lot like grabbing the easiest marks and moving on. Why would you stick with something that avoids proof and evidence? Again this looks like treating ‘belief’ as a virtue. Why is blind faith a virtue?

 

[_A]

I think the LDS tradtion of having young people go on missions is an excellent one. What dedication for the family to send a teen away from home and financially support that child for a year to two years on top of the cost of college. They must worry so to have their child approaching strangers day in and day out.

What courage in the child to leave home and spend each day knocking on the doors of strangers explaining the LDS beliefs. Missionaries risk ridicule, threats and just plain crazies.

The LDS dedication in developing, expanding and maintaining geneologies has been a major contribution to society. It is one place that African Americans can go to trace their ancestry back to sections of Africa.

Lot’s of good things about LDS.

Don’t they also have the multiple husbands and have some trouble for marrying very young men to old women, sometimes closely related? Sometimes when they already have husbands?
Or was it the women who were being treated this way?
Either way, it seems really odd that their religion excuses them from respecting the laws of the country they choose to live in (I am speaking here about the USA )

 

[Jacafamala]

That doesn’t matter. Just because it ‘feels good’ doesn’t have anything to do with the truth of the proposition. Maybe church-goers are more likely to sing, and that is what is making them healthy.

No, it’s not just the fact that ‘feels good’, but helps religion helps people stay healthy.

Good try, but other studies have shown that faith is unhealthy (look at countries where churches have gained more political power, and I think you will agree that quality of life degrades. Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.

It’s the problem of sin in action, A. That doesn’t change the fact that God is good.

 

[Valke2]

The flounder is an example of an animal that is not left-right symmetrical.LandBigFish.com 404 Error Page Not Found

That is one ugly fish, obviously a minon of satan. According to wikipedia, flounder is the preferred fish of all non-vegetarian atheists and agnositics.

 

[_A]

First off, A, maybe I meant border waters. The waters between Canada and US, particularly above Minessota. It’s been about ten years, but an incredible trip. Had a bear raid our camp 4 times. Caught a lot of fish. Saw a moose a day and the Northern lights.

I am enjoying the aurora borealis almost nightly here. It is one of the reasons I would find it difficult to move away. I think you are privileged to have opportunities like that - as am I. Sounds like a terrific trip.

Anyway, I’m a little bothered by the way you continue to more narrowly define, without qualification, what counts as evidence. Not only must it be unconditionally falsifiable, but it must be simply stated and “big news”. I think the last two points are presumptious.

Speaking of presumption, some here have said that I don’t have access to the evidence because something is wrong with me. If this evidence is not available for ALL to understand, then evidence it is not. I cannot just start ‘believing’ for example, before rational evidence is presented.

1. Water doesn’t rise above its source and the effect can’t be greater than its cause, but somehow rationality has been caused by random interchange of non-rational matter.

Water can rise above it’s source (evaporation, shuttle launches). Just what is ‘non-rational matter’?

1. There appears to be evidence of design in our universe, from the irreducibly complex nature of some organisms to the harmony that had to exist in the creation of the universe and in the stability of the smallest.

Irreducible complexity? I say show it! There was a charlatan named Behe pushing this awhile ago, but I didn’t know anyone still believed him.Appearance of design (to your eyes) does not prove design.

1. The scientific prediction of the heat death of the universe does not jive with the idea of an eternally existing universe as an infinite amount of time would have already reached this conclusion, indicating the probability (notice I didn’t say certainty) of a first cause.

Saying this first cause is your god just raises the question about what caused your god. If complex things require a designer, the designer of complex things would be very complex indeed. So who designed your god then?

1. The mere existence of the universe when there is simply no need for matter or energy to have existed in the first place seems to indicate a contigent being.

Swing and a miss! The existence of the universe indicates only that the universe exists. You have not demonstrated anything else here.

1. The prediction of a heat death or big freeze for the universe also does not jive with the idea of an eternal motion within the universe and infinite existance, indicating the probability of a first mover.

Why would that have anything to do with a god? A universe that ends, or one that does not are each equally evidence of gods and of no gods.

1. Miracles, including: A-The existence, unexplained by science, of the

incorruptable corpses (with no apparent source of preservation) of men and women whose lives were marked by holiness.
B- Stigmatas
C- Eucharistic miracles
7) The perserverance of the institution of the Catholic Church for two-thousand years.
8) The prophesies that Christ fulfilled.
9) Historical testimony to Christ’s death and resurrection.
10) The testimony of martyrs to his death and resurrection.
None of that is evidence.Random preserved corpses like some old Buddists or your examples are perhaps evidence of corpse preservation, but it doesn’t point at a god. Perhaps if ALL of his followers were preserved in such a fashion it would indicate a god or gods, but another miss, I am afraid. Testimony is suspect because you are required by holy law to testimony at people. As to the prophesies of that Jesus character, he told Peter he would be back before Peter died…Peter died knowing that he was lied to. The church survived…does that mean if scientology survives, you would believe their story?

 

[_A]

No one will ever be able to give to A an answer that he will acknowledge. His problem is is a combination of pride and hate. Both have blinded him to be open to the working of the Holy Spirit. In his present state of mind he is not looking for proof of God he is just venting, and you all are his targets. Misery loves company. Some of us that post on these forums most likely have been like him and had the same attitude he exibits. i know i have been there and done that. We all have free will and God honors that. He will not force anyone to beleive and if anyone slams the door on him he will not force it open even though he could. But he does stand at the door and knock, each of us have to open the door to let Him in. He says to all “Come let us reason together.” Most everyone on this forum would love to have people like A instanly healed of their disbelief . but sadly sometimes it just doesnt happen . In my case it took 50 years by Gods grace to break down my disbelief. And i have to say i finally have peace. and a great love of my Lord Jesus. I Pray A that you will find this before you die.

Funny how the lack of evidence is blamed on ME. I don’t believe. If you believe that Yahweh made everything, then he made me without this ‘faith’ you speak of. Without it, there is no way to demonstrate that your god exists.
Have you ever considered that if you really believe in a different god, you will find it also to be true?

 

[edgarddb]

edgarddb:
(my last post here)
Hi -A- atheist
I slaved about an hour replying to you this morning, and for some reason it did not “take” So here from OKINAWA AT 10 PM I WILL GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY.
I did not say you write drivel, I said :WE
You mentioned that you were brought up as Catholic and it did not “Take” That is not correct, you CHOSE to walk AWAY FROM IT.
Thank GOD you’re not a muslim, for with your fanatical attidude,by now you would be scourging “PARADISE” for your 70+ virgins. Sorry pall, there are none left, the Al chaida and talliban ravished them all.
You had me going for a while, thinking you were searching for a way back, so I dug up some more relevant scriptures, which I won’t bother to repeat now, as I read your later post stating If “GOD personaly confronted you , You would not worship Him”. Yet I hope you will not meet here on earth the fate of Mrs O’HAIR, the mother of all atheist. Good by I rest my case. I hope the rest of those posting here will see the light and leave you spewing your venom elsewhere. ED

 

[_A]

you are who you are. you will learn why things aren’t perfect later. your first step is to decide if there is an uncaused cause or not

I see what you mean. How could a god be uncaused? He must have a cause, what could have created him?
I think there must have been a creator of Yahweh.
If I understand your ‘uncaused cause’ comment.

 

[_A]

Bascially, I think that you are saying that the forces of nature will cause this to happen. Sounds OK. But, I’m still in awe of how these forces came about to produce such creatures. To me, it still suggests an intelligent force has designed this. It’s less logical, in my mind, to think that this just happened, willy-nilly.
I get the same feeling when I watch the snow falling. Coming down, it looks like chaos. When all is done, a beautiful pattern is lying on the ground. I am sure that can be explained by science but it still leads me to see a creators hand in the consruction of those very forces of nature.

It most certainly did NOT happen ‘willy-nilly’. I would suggest reading some books on evolution. It is a much more impressive and grand story than ‘goddidit’.

 

[_A]

This is sounding like a “God of the Gaps” argument come to life.

When we figured out how to make fire, we no longer needed a fire God.

When we figured out how the Earth moved around the Sun, we didn’t need a God who was driving a golden chariot across the sky.

When we figured out that small changes in living material over generations are why we are different from each other - we no longer require a God that is the Creator of all.

Not to hijack the topic, but can someone explain to me why people from east Asia look different from Caucasians look different from African-Americans? Considering that the human race was supposedly redacted to less than a dozen individuals about the time the Sumerians were discovering glue, it doesn’t seem likely that all of the different races in the world were present on the Ark.

There would not have been room on the ark for all the animals, let alone the different human variants.

 

[_A]

No, it’s not just the fact that ‘feels good’, but helps religion helps people stay healthy.

It’s the problem of sin in action, A. That doesn’t change the fact that God is good.

If your god is really good, why did he do so much genocide in the OT? Why did he kill everyone on earth in the (imaginary) great flood? The bible is full of stories that would have Yahweh arrested and jailed today.

 

[_A]

(my last post here)
Hi -A- atheist
I slaved about an hour replying to you this morning, and for some reason it did not “take” So here from OKINAWA AT 10 PM I WILL GIVE IT ANOTHER TRY.
I did not say you write drivel, I said :WE
You mentioned that you were brought up as Catholic and it did not “Take” That is not correct, you CHOSE to walk AWAY FROM IT.
Thank GOD you’re not a muslim, for with your fanatical attidude,by now you would be scourging “PARADISE” for your 70+ virgins. Sorry pall, there are none left, the Al chaida and talliban ravished them all.
You had me going for a while, thinking you were searching for a way back, so I dug up some more relevant scriptures, which I won’t bother to repeat now, as I read your later post stating If “GOD personaly confronted you , You would not worship Him”. Yet I hope you will not meet here on earth the fate of Mrs O’HAIR, the mother of all atheist. Good by I rest my case. I hope the rest of those posting here will see the light and leave you spewing your venom elsewhere. ED

You did indeed say that I was writing drivel. Now you say I am spewing venom? Glad you are leaving - I am not interested in an insult contest.

 

[bogoljub]

No one will ever be able to give to A an answer that he will acknowledge. His problem is is a combination of pride and hate. Both have blinded him to be open to the working of the Holy Spirit. In his present state of mind he is not looking for proof of God he is just venting, and you all are his targets. Misery loves company. Some of us that post on these forums most likely have been like him and had the same attitude he exibits. i know i have been there and done that. We all have free will and God honors that. He will not force anyone to beleive and if anyone slams the door on him he will not force it open even though he could. But he does stand at the door and knock, each of us have to open the door to let Him in. QUOTE]

God bless !

I think the same, A is not really looking for God or a proof of his existence; this can be seen clearly from his posts- many questions he did not answer, and I think he did not really read them and got into the message.

So all arguments are in vain because he will not listen; perhaps he wants that we tell him that some astronomers have discovered with their telescopes, God sitting on a cloud and eating crackers.

If you want such “evidence” I can tell u, u will never get such.

You accuse believers that they follow blind faith - how can you say that ? Did you go the way of a believer- have you made the same experience ?

You follow blind faith, but you can not see that !

In CHRIST

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Trouble with your description is, it doesn’t have anything about it which is falsifiable. One could say the same thing about any other imaginary beings and be equally unassailable.
Let’s try, for demonstration purposes…
Flying Spaghetti Monster is an omniscient and personal being who has communicated in some way with the human race.
Zeus is an omniscient and personal being who has communicated in some way with the human race.
Chad the janitor is an omniscient and personal being who has communicated in some way with the human race.
You see, even the ‘Chad’ example (ridiculous though it is) is unassailable.
If no falsifiable claims can be made, that should tell you how reasonable the claimant.

Yes, i agree it would be an easy thing to prove Chad is far from omniscient. All we would have to do is ask him to tell us something specific and verifiable about the near future no one could possibly know.

Now, if Chad said God spoke to him and told him the future, and what he said was specific and verifiable and incredible and yet came true, i’d have to admit that his fulfilled prophecy was strong evidence that some kind of inhuman, all-knowing creature must have revealed the future to him.

Does this sound reasonable?

 

[_A]

Yes, i agree it would be an easy thing to prove Chad is far from omniscient. All we would have to do is ask him to tell us something specific and verifiable about the near future no one could possibly know.

Chad is omniscient, but he won’t show himself to you unless you believe in him.

Now, if Chad said God spoke to him and told him the future, and what he said was specific and verifiable and incredible and yet came true, i’d have to admit that his fulfilled prophecy was strong evidence that some kind of inhuman, all-knowing creature must have revealed the future to him.

Does this sound reasonable?

Nope, Chad doesn’t work that way. He is all knowing, and he knows that you need to change *yourself *before you can accept him. Chad gives you freedom of choice. Even freedom to condemn yourself for eternity by not accepting Him into your heart.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I might be able to find such a bit of knowledge, but first you would have to define ‘god’. God is a word to describe a type of being (like Yahweh is a god, so is Allah, so is Zeus etc…) so just saying ‘god’ is not being specific enough. Which god do you mean, and what are that gods specific attributes?

The better your definition is, the more likely it will be that such a question can be devised.

A:

To avoid unnecessary debate, it might be best to say that our goal should be to prove whether or not some omniscient being exists and has proved its existence by revealing the future to human beings. Whether or not we call this being God is irrelevant at this juncture.

Your claim is that there is no credible evidence supporting the existence of such a being who knows all of the future with 100% accuracy. Are you willing to put your claim to the test? If it passes the test, your faith in your convictions will be strengthened and my life might be changed forever.

 

[_A]

A:

To avoid unnecessary debate, it might be best to say that our goal should be to prove whether or not some omniscient being exists and has proved its existence by revealing the future to human beings. Whether or not we call this being God is irrelevant at this juncture.

Your claim is that there is no credible evidence supporting the existence of such a being who knows all of the future with 100% accuracy. Are you willing to put your claim to the test? If it passes the test, your faith in your convictions will be strengthened and my life might be changed forever.

Sure! Let’s start with the next 100 drawings of the Canadian 6/49 lottery.
Or did you have some other prediction in mind?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Chad is omniscient, but he won’t show himself to you unless you believe in him.

Nope, Chad doesn’t work that way. He is all knowing, and he knows that you need to change *yourself *before you can accept him. Chad gives you freedom of choice. Even freedom to condemn yourself for eternity by not accepting Him into your heart.

The “Chad” i know understands that people like myself need to be convinced before i will trust him. He understands that faith is not a blind leap into a dark chasm; it is a step into the light of sound evidence, reason and truth.

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD.
(Isaiah, chapter 1)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sure! Let’s start with the next 100 drawings of the Canadian 6/49 lottery.
Or did you have some other prediction in mind?

LOL!

OK, lets do this. I’ll try to make it brief.

 

[Tracyms1974]

Hello, A.

  I am a cradle Catholic who struggles with her faith every day (here lately, anyway.)  I think it's fine to be any religion or lack thereof as long as the religion does not dictate the harm, abuse, neglect, disrespect, or what have you of anyone else.  (See Satanism, (maybe) Wiccanism, (sorry folks) Islam, to a degree, and Nazism, although that's more a political party or something.)  So I guess as long as a person is an atheist and they aren't hurting anybody then it's okay.  Although, I must say that by being an atheist you miss out on some pretty amazing benefits that Christians experience.  The love of God is a love that no human can match.  I try to tell myself this every day in my current struggles and difficulties; maybe one day when things are better I can appreciate that love more fully.

  Look at it this way:  If I can still believe, even a little bit that God has a plan for me even in the face of difficulty, I can only imagine my joy when that plan is finally realized by myself and God's joy when I waited patiently for Him to show me at the right time - like a parent's joy when they can finally give their children their gifts on Christmas Day.  Yep, it ain't just the kids who are happy!  

  Please consider God.  He considers you every day.  Also, a great philosopher said that it actually makes more sense to believe in God because when you die, you've lost nothing except maybe a mild feeling of disappointment in the rare event that you were wrong and there actually is no God.  I'd much rather say, "Oh, shucks," than "Oh no!", wouldn't you?

Tracy