I am an atheist

[_A]

This can’t be debated because it is each person’s personal experience. The natural beauty in life moves my heart and mind in a way where I can see beyond myself. If the opposite is true for you, I can’t debate that. It’s not true for you.

I get the same feeling, but much stronger, when I begin to understand a new facet of science. When staring up at the night sky and considering how much we have learned about our moon, for example.
The personal experience that you have is no more proof of your god’s existence than my personal experience is disproof.

Much of the evidence offered for a certain god or religion is of the personal experience variety.

I think it is too important a step to take based on such evidence. Even *from *myself.
Perhaps especially from myself.

 

[BCH]

I get the same feeling, but much stronger, when I begin to understand a new facet of science. When staring up at the night sky and considering how much we have learned about our moon, for example.
The personal experience that you have is no more proof of your god’s existence than my personal experience is disproof.

Much of the evidence offered for a certain god or religion is of the personal experience variety.

I think it is too important a step to take based on such evidence. Even *from *myself.
Perhaps especially from myself.

And just who’s experience should I offer, someone else’s. That doesn’t even make sense.

 

[_A]

And just who’s experience should I offer, someone else’s. That doesn’t even make sense.

The reason that my own experience is suspect is because I am an interested party. I have a huge personal stake in the answers, as I think you would agree. Humans hallucinate quite regularly and frequently, as you also will likely agree.
What we need is evidence that can be assessed and clearly understood by anyone. Not just some self-appointed rulers of a church.
I hope this clears up what I meant for you.

 

[bobzills]

The reason that my own experience is suspect is because I am an interested party. I have a huge personal stake in the answers, as I think you would agree. .

According to the theory of quantum mechanics the observer is not independent of the reality.

 

[notself]

According to the theory of quantum mechanics the observer is not independent of the reality.

I thought according to the theory of quantum mechanics the observer creates reality.

 

[BCH]

According to the theory of quantum mechanics the observer is not independent of the reality.

I would certainly agree that science has its place but I don’t need quantum mechanics to know if gravity exists or not. The personal experience of falling on my backside was quite enough.
.

 

[_A]

According to the theory of quantum mechanics the observer is not independent of the reality.

So…?

 

[zerinus]

I think you misunderstand me. I am here for several reasons. The main one that drew me here was that I would like to understand this ‘belief’. See if it is based in fact, and not in anything like self-hypnosis. Also, I enjoy debate (though I am still learning…not that good at it yet). Another is that I enjoy chatting to people.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not questioning your right to be here. You have as much right to be here, and disuses your religion with other people, as much as anybody else does. I was challenging your approach to the subject.

I am not trying to find a god to worship.

Now you are being honest. I figured that much. That explains why you cannot find Him. You can only find God if you seek Him sincerely and with all your heart. God can only be known if He chooses to reveal Himself to you; and that is one of the preconditions that He has laid down for revealing Himself to those who want to know Him:

Deuteronomy 4:

29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Acts 17:

26 And [God] hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

I would try your test, but whenever I fail such a test (such as the ‘pray for knowledge’ test, which has failed me in the past) the tester blames me. Nothing specific, either. Just says that I am not ready.

Sure it is a personal witness. I can testify to that because I have received such a witness. If it doesn’t work for you, sorry to hear that; but after that we have nothing further left to talk about.

If you have a test, make it independantly verifiable, and lab-testable. Otherwise, it is more ‘personal witness’ experience (most likely) and not something I haven’t seen before.

There is no such thing as an “independently verifiable proof” of God. Anybody who tells you different is misguided, and doesn’t know what he is talking about.

zerinus

 

[_A]

Don’t get me wrong. I am not questioning your right to be here. You have as much right to be here, and disuses your religion with other people, as much as anybody else does. I was challenging your approach to the subject.

Here is more of your misunderstanding. I do not have a religion. I do not ‘believe’ with so little evidence. I am not really sure how you can.

Now you are being honest. I figured that much. That explains why you cannot find Him. You can only find God if you seek Him sincerely and with all your heart. God can only be known if He chooses to reveal Himself to you; and that is one of the preconditions that He has laid down for revealing Himself to those who want to know Him:

What is the difference between a god who wont show himself without faith, which may cause a hallucination of godlike proportions from time to time, and a god who is totally imaginary?
(I mean the difference observable by scientific method)

Sure it is a personal witness. I can testify to that because I have received such a witness. If it doesn’t work for you, sorry to hear that; but after that we have nothing further left to talk about.

Sorry to hear that, but really, the existence of your current god is not the only subject which we might explore.

There is no such thing as an “independently verifiable proof” of God. Anybody who tells you different is misguided, and doesn’t know what he is talking about.

zerinus

I am glad you said that. I have used something similar as a *touchstone *for years. I say it this way; if someone has faith in their god, that’s fine, but if someone says they know something about their god I watch my wallet. The person is lying and likely for personal gain.
Of course, that is not scientifically verifiable, just some personal experience guiding me there.

EDIT - Hit ‘send’ too soon.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Heya Big A,

Now what do you wish happens to you when you die? Not exactly what you think will happen, but what you wish would happen. Would there be any difference from what you wish and what you think would happen?

 

[_A]

Heya Big A,

Now what do you wish happens to you when you die? Not exactly what you think will happen, but what you wish would happen.

What I wish happens is that some medical laboratory takes ‘my’ cadaver and uses it as an educational resource, afterward taking care of the disposal. (So I don’t have to pay WOO HOO!)
I wish my friends would mark my passing by happily remembering me.

Would there be any difference from what you wish and what you think would happen?

I think no matter what I do I am going to have to pay a high price for disposing of my corpse, but that is only a small disappointment, really.
I think some of those close to me will be sad at my passing - little I can do to avoid it, either.

 

[zerinus]

I have used something similar as a *touchstone *for years. I say it this way; if someone has faith in their god, that’s fine, but if someone says they know something about their god I watch my wallet. The person is lying and likely for personal gain.

I am one such a person. I claim to have a personal witness of the reality of God. You are accusing me of lying. You are saying that I am a liar, and after your wallet! That brings our conversation to an end. You may be a liar, but I am not, and I don’t like to be accused of being one. Therefore we have nothing further to talk about.

Have a nice day.

zerinus

 

[bobzills]

So…?

See your post 461

 

[_A]

I am one such a person. I claim to have a personal witness of the reality of God. You are accusing me of lying. You are saying that I am a liar, and after your wallet! That brings our conversation to an end. You may be a liar, but I am not, and I don’t like to be accused of being one. Therefore we have nothing further to talk about.

Have a nice day.

zerinus

You say you have personal witness information about your god and it is true and valid. I say that you have no knowledge, just faith. Because of this state of affairs, it would be dishonest (from my perspective) to present it as fact.
If it is fact, would you say that everyone else who has that kind of personal experience has the same facts? If they are all identical, (descriptions of their experience)we may start to think it was the work of one being (and test!). If, on the other hand, the knowledge one gains by this experience is different from person to person, then I would say that it is likely one of the common hallucinations we humans are prone to. Our perceptions are far from simple.
A hallucination is completely believable, yet still not showing you facts. From your perspective, of course there is no lie - you have accepted this personal experience as fact, so you express it as such. From mine, what you say is incorrect.
Most of the people who have talked to me as if they know something about their god are working near a collection plate. That is why I watch my wallet.
Sorry you are leaving, but thank you for your contributions. Crudely put, calling something a fact which cannot be demonstrated as fact is a lie. I realize now that I should choose less inflammatory language, and apologize for my choice there.

 

[_A]

See your post 461

I still don’t see what you are getting at. As an interested party, I would test as well as I could, but still trust repeated independent verification over my own experiences. If you have a point, please make it clear. I have much to respond to here.

 

[Jacafamala]

He still hasn’t been able to get rid of that pesky sin, eh…well, so much for being all-powerful.
At least in the OT it seemed that dying was the end. Now, you are threatened with eternal torment.
I don’t see the ‘good’ part.

Nope: that is exactly right, A; He hasn’t gotten rid of it (aka, pesky torment). If He’d of gotten rid of that (pesky torment), then there wouldn’t be any us. But because we get to make our own choices, and because we all choose to be stupid, He died on the cross to offer us another way. My God, He loves us! Now how 'bout that, A? He loves us enough to let us choose what we want; to be stupid is good with Him, if that’s what we want, because He loves us that much. And plenty would rather be without Him. Plenty are that sadistic. He respects that entirely. We are made in His image, so we have that privilege.

 

[_A]

Nope: that is exactly right, A; He hasn’t gotten rid of it (aka, pesky torment). If He’d of gotten rid of that (pesky torment), then there wouldn’t be any us. But because we get to make our own choices, and because we all choose to be stupid, He died on the cross to offer us another way. My God, He loves us! Now how 'bout that, A? He loves us enough to let us choose what we want; to be stupid is good with Him, if that’s what we want, because He loves us that much. And plenty would rather be without Him. Plenty are that sadistic. He respects that entirely. We are made in His image, so we have that privilege.

Sounds like your beliefs have me doing what your god wants or else I get my butt kicked for eternity. Do I still have ‘free will’ if the boss of the whole universe is threatening me?

 

[RedSoxFan]

What I wish happens is that some medical laboratory takes ‘my’ cadaver and uses it as an educational resource, afterward taking care of the disposal. (So I don’t have to pay WOO HOO!)
I wish my friends would mark my passing by happily remembering me.

I think no matter what I do I am going to have to pay a high price for disposing of my corpse, but that is only a small disappointment, really.
I think some of those close to me will be sad at my passing - little I can do to avoid it, either.

Admriable answers. The financial costs worry me too.

You answered perfectly what you would want for you body and what you want your friends to do. You are not alone in that. Say then, that you were to have a soul. What do you wish to happen to your soul, (with the understanding in this theoretical that you have one)?

 

[Tracyms1974]

Tracy, if a man is jealous about his wifes behaviour, it is not noble. It is manipulative and controlling and ugly. If a couple are going to be together, I would think that willing sharing would be a much better program. Same goes for Yahweh. Instead of fixing his mistakes, he kills them in floods, or tortures them eternally in hell.
Beneath my moral standards, not to mention the standards of any civilized country today.

First of all, you MUST not be married.

Second of all, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think that a spouse needs to get all bent out of shape over the least little things. The other spouse would need to be doing something seriously inappropriate for the concerned spouse to be concerned. But even then, the aflicted spouse should only voice his/her concern and suggest counselling depending on how bad the situation was. Violence, threats, verbal abuse, or manipulation as you say are never the answer to marital strife. If the offending spouse is any kind of spouse at all, he/she will apologize, and that will be the end of it. Willing sharing is a terrible idea. What person in their right mind would enter a relationship, buy a house, car, have kids with a person who could walk out the door any time any day? Not me. No sir. You may say that married people do this too, but I would argue not as often, and if they did, the leaving party would have a lot more to account for spiritually when he/she died.

If God killed people as you mentioned, chances are the people he disposed of sinned big time with no thought or inclination toward repenting of their sins. I could be wrong, but like I said in my previous post, the mass killing didn’t seem to be “working out,” so God decided to try a more personal approach and sent the world its own personal rabbi - Jesus - to teach us how to live.

You keep talking about your “moral standards.” Where do you think you got those “moral standards” from? Your genes? Maybe. Or maybe God writes on the soul of every human being a code of reasonable moral standards just in case they don’t have the opportunity you have here today to learn about God, His Love, and His just punishments. (I did say JUST. Please notice this.) You may as well put those moral standards to work for you and find a nice church somewhere so you can thank God every Sunday for all His blessings and ask gently for any needs you may have. (A Catholic church is preferable, of course, but a Protestant church is better than no church.)

Thanks for reading,

Tracy

 

[_A]

Admriable answers. The financial costs worry me too.

You answered perfectly what you would want for you body and what you want your friends to do. You are not alone in that. Say then, that you were to have a soul. What do you wish to happen to your soul, (with the understanding in this theoretical that you have one)?

I would need to know what a ‘soul’ is before I could reasonably speculate, but offhand I would say that I would like to carry on much as I am now…I quite enjoy the way this life is going.