I am an atheist

[_A]

you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken

So was the place ever rebuilt? Can we googleearth the location and see if anything has been built on it?
Will we see only fishnets, Socrates4Jesus?

 

[_A]

Alexander the Great did just that more than 200 years after Ezekiel was in the grave.

So Alexander read the prophecy, then followed it, it that what you are suggesting?

 

[_A]

First off we did not do anything to cause Him to suffer. His love is so great for us that He on his own account died for our sins and our salvation. Because of His love he choose to send His son to die for us.

Jesus is dead !?!?
I thought the story said that it looked like he died, but he came back to life and went back home to heaven.

If he values free will so much, why demand obedience?

 

[_A]

You contradict yourself. I suspect the later is what you truly believe. I also suspect that you’ve come here merely to amuse yourself at our expense.

Daddums

Thanks for the accusation !
Since you accused, I will not be sharing more with you. Had you instead asked questions, I would have tried to offer answers.
I will try to remember you, Daddums

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

You contradict yourself. I suspect the later is what you truly believe. I also suspect that you’ve come here merely to amuse yourself at our expense.

Daddums

Daddums:

I myself find it hard not to be amused by a comment like yours. Lighten up, Daddums, and try to enjoy the dialog yourself!

 

[RedSoxFan]

I would need to know what a ‘soul’ is before I could reasonably speculate, but offhand I would say that I would like to carry on much as I am now…I quite enjoy the way this life is going.

Yeah the offhand comment is exactly what I was after. So things are going ok and you want the party your life is right now to go on forever or at least after you die.

Uhm what compeled you to come to a Catholic forum in the first place?

 

[Pax]

Here we have something. You say that it is obvious that…the thing is, your god is anything but obvious. There is no noticeable difference between your idea of god and many other contradictory ideas of other gods. To say that it is obvious that he is superior to me, he would have to be able to beat me thumb wrestling.
I am waiting, thumbs flexed and ready.

If I am asked if I think Yahweh is good or not, I have to decide based on the morals and ethics which I have developed.
Encouraging soldiers to ‘dash babies heads against the rocks’ is horrible. Killing every living thing on earth is also something I would stand against.
By every ethical or moral measure I have, Yahweh does not pass muster - unless I simply believe.
I still have been given no reason to believe.

I mentioned that which is obvious and you have dodged the point. One must deal with the definitions which is something that you refuse to do. Instead of dealing with the possibility of an omniscient and omnipotent creator within the definition, you prefer to make a caricature. God is by definition greater than man. If you deal with the definition of God then you’re forced to deal with the points I have raised in my prior posts. So far you have not dealt with them.

On the one hand, you prefer to bring God down to your subjective human level in order to make your straw-man arguments. You then attempt to shift this into the realm of whether or not a supreme being exists or not. This is a non-starter. You even get silly in assuming that there is anything even remotely reasonable in “you” setting up a challenge for God in a “thumb war.” This is an attempt to bring God down. There is no reason for God to play “your” silly game. For you to bring God down in such a way would make you greater than God. Again, this is simply a non-starter and you should know better.

Your moral and ethical standards are meaningless in this discussion and there is no legitimate reason for you to attempt to apply them to God. First of all, your personal moral views have no greater source or center than yourself. Your personal moral views do not trump the personal moral views of any other person on the planet. There is no intrinsic superiority built into your moral system than any other because they are merely your opinion grounded in your personal experience and preferences. In attempting to apply your personal standards to God, you have placed yourself above God.

The moment you attempt to place yourself in this type of position, you will immediately blind yourself to the truth. You cannot see God in anything. You will only see yourself and your intellect as the supreme whatever.

You can complain about what you perceive to be the murderous tendencies of God in the OT all you like, but it is a non-starter with me unless you can answer all of the questions I raised concerning how you operate in your life relative to living creatures that you consider inferior to yourself. Please explain to me how you can do what you do in innocence, yet you consider it outside of God’s power, authority, and righteousness to do whatever He likes with that which He has created. Why is it that you can do what you will, but God as the potter does not have sovereignty over the clay?

 

[_A]

Yeah the offhand comment is exactly what I was after. So things are going ok and you want the party your life is right now to go on forever or at least after you die.

Uhm what compeled you to come to a Catholic forum in the first place?

I have answered this several times in the thread. I am going to begin to refer folks back…this is a busy thread to keep up with.

 

[Pax]

Frankly, I don’t care why you are here…it’s good to have you participate. You are courteous and that means a lot to me regardless of how much we might disagree.

 

[RedSoxFan]

I have answered this several times in the thread. I am going to begin to refer folks back…this is a busy thread to keep up with.

Sorry about that. It must get frustrating. Though looking through 37 pages on only dial up takes me out of this conversation. I hope you pretty much are subject to Divine intervention that leaves you no doubt about God’s existance. God Bless!

 

[_A]

Why is it that you can do what you will, but God as the potter does not have sovereignty over the clay?

You can think of yourself as clay all you like, that doesn’t make me clay. I haven’t answered because the answers should have been clear with the picture I posted and the comments about which fish I eat.
I am also not a fish.
There are many human characteristics accredited to Yahweh in the bible - jealous vengeful and listless, I think. I didn’t say those things about him, your bible did.
I know how I treat people who fit those descriptions, and I see no reason to think of Yahweh any differently.
If you have some proof that he is more than a character in some books of varying quality, I would look into it, by the way.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Frankly, I don’t care why you are here…it’s good to have you participate. You are courteous and that means a lot to me regardless of how much we might disagree.

I concur.

 

[_A]

Frankly, I don’t care why you are here…it’s good to have you participate. You are courteous and that means a lot to me regardless of how much we might disagree.

I am not even sure we disagree on as much as might seem. The longer we chat, I think the more we will find in common.

 

[_A]

Sorry about that. It must get frustrating. Though looking through 37 pages on only dial up takes me out of this conversation. I hope you pretty much are subject to Divine intervention that leaves you no doubt about God’s existance. God Bless!

I am mostly just here to chat, RedSoxFan, and I will try to remember that you are on dial-up.
I also would like to better understand why people believe.
I also like to fish, and debate fishing, ethics, religion, fish, fishing and fisherman!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I am mostly just here to chat, RedSoxFan, and I will try to remember that you are on dial-up.
I also would like to better understand why people believe.
I also like to fish, and debate fishing, ethics, religion, fish, fishing and fisherman!

I hope you don’t think it rude to ask A, but i’ve often wondered why Jesus chose fishermen as the majority of his inner circle when he was not one himself. Being a fisherman yourself, can you think of what would make a fisherman a good leader?

 

[Pax]

You can think of yourself as clay all you like, that doesn’t make me clay. I haven’t answered because the answers should have been clear with the picture I posted and the comments about which fish I eat.
I am also not a fish.
There are many human characteristics accredited to Yahweh in the bible - jealous vengeful and listless, I think. I didn’t say those things about him, your bible did.
I know how I treat people who fit those descriptions, and I see no reason to think of Yahweh any differently.
If you have some proof that he is more than a character in some books of varying quality, I would look into it, by the way.

Sorry, but I do not find this answer at all satisfying. The potter and clay are a figure of speech. You can use other terminology if you like. If you prefer use “Creator” and the “human creatures” among other things that He[the Creator] created.

So the question remains. You exercise a certain amount of sovereignty over living creatures around you and you feel perfectly justified. Why then do you have a problem with the “Creator” having complete sovereingty over all things that He has created?

 

[stringbeanduck]

Jesus is dead !?!?
I thought the story said that it looked like he died, but he came back to life and went back home to heaven.

If he values free will so much, why demand obedience?

You missed the point of the arguement.

I’ll explain for you. Jesus died for our salvation. On the third day He rose again in fulfilment of the sciptures. It’s not like his heart stoped beating and then started again. He died. On the 3rd day He rose from death visted mary. And went up to heaven.

About your 2nd question-
Think of it this way. You have the choice to murder some1. Right? The law asks for your obedience to follow it and not murder that person. But they can’t stop from making the choice to murder that person.

 

[_A]

I hope you don’t think it rude to ask A, but i’ve often wondered why Jesus chose fishermen as the majority of his inner circle when he was not one himself. Being a fisherman yourself, can you think of what would make a fisherman a good leader?

I don’t know why it was written that way, but perhaps my sort of fishing (for pleasure, not for livelihood) was not what it was written about. I think the fisherman of those stories was more like a commercial fisherman or a farmer. Quietly doing noble and dangerous work, while not being noted for nobility or bravery.

 

[Hellisreal]

I don’t know why it was written that way, but perhaps my sort of fishing (for pleasure, not for livelihood) was not what it was written about. I think the fisherman of those stories was more like a commercial fisherman or a farmer. Quietly doing noble and dangerous work, while not being noted for nobility or bravery.

A, along the lines of fish- what do you think of this thread?

If you could give me your thoughts on it as a fisherman.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=146310&highlight=153+fish

 

[_A]

Sorry, but I do not find this answer at all satisfying. The potter and clay are a figure of speech. You can use other terminology if you like. If you prefer use “Creator” and the “human creatures” among other things that He[the Creator] created.

So the question remains. You exercise a certain amount of sovereignty over living creatures around you and you feel perfectly justified. Why then do you have a problem with the “Creator” having complete sovereingty over all things that He has created?

Because the idea of a creator as presented in the OT ( and ratified by your god in the NT) is ludicrous. If your god made everything, then he made sin, and made all people sinners. (unless he messed up - then he is not your omnipotent being anymore). He made them this way JUST to torture and bully those who didn’t fit his requirements. There is no analogy that makes this seem OK. If you have a dog, sure you are allowed to kick it (though not by law, or by accepted ethics). If you have children, are you also allowed to kick them? No you are not. People are not chattels, and treating them as if they were is beastly and primitive. I know that the bible says it is OK to kill whole communities - if they guess wrong on the god question, or something. Trouble is, the bible also says it is OK to keep slaves…or to beat your wife…or to kill your children. It is abundantly clear that if old Yahweh was examined for his behaviour that the laws of my country would lock him away - many countries would simply execute him (say for war crimes - like ordering the babies heads dashed against the rocks.)
Why should god not live up to our ethical standards? Eternal torture for minor offenses such as disbelief?
Perhaps the bible and Yahweh stories have it all wrong.