I am an atheist

[Pax]

This reply does not address my questions in the way they were posed.

 

[_A]

You missed the point of the arguement.

I’ll explain for you. Jesus died for our salvation. On the third day He rose again in fulfilment of the sciptures. It’s not like his heart stoped beating and then started again. He died. On the 3rd day He rose from death visted mary. And went up to heaven.

I say he didn’t suffer a bit. He staged a big show, and later, some guys wrote about it. If he was your god, he said himself that he was eternal and couldn’t die. Must have been quite a comfort to him. A comfort not available to anyone else who died before or since.
If you have evidence that he really died and really rose, I would look at it, but I think all that you have is the bible, which is quite suspect as evidence in this case.

About your 2nd question-
Think of it this way. You have the choice to murder some1. Right? The law asks for your obedience to follow it and not murder that person. But they can’t stop from making the choice to murder that person.

We have reasonable laws in place in my country, which I can appeal and have changed if it seems right to do so.
Your god will not defend his position, or adjust his rules if they are found to be unjust.
In fact, most people won’t even consider that his rules might be unjust, so remember this. It is Sunday today. Everyone who is working is in contravention of one of the 10 commandments. Why do so many catholic priests work today? Why are they exempt? Are nurses and doctors exempt? How about the organization who provides your electricity?
All these people should be dealt with, for breaking a commandment. I say let them go because in today’s world, there is not even a clear definition of Sunday anymore (Sunday here, or in Australia?). Thing is though, your god fails to audit and update his bible, leaving it for humans to do. Fallible humans in control of the bible, to me means that the bible could not be the word of god anymore anyway - too many hands in it. Too many versions of it around.

 

[_A]

This reply does not address my questions in the way they were posed.

You don’t own people. No-one does. Slavery was abolished a long time ago in my corner of the world.
To say that your god owns people is just as wrong.
Slavery may be supported by the bible, but it is still wrong.
I catch, kill and eat fish. Same for ptarmigan( I hope) pigs cows and chickens. I do not justify it, I just eat them. If one talked to me about it, I might change my mind about eating it.
If I am still missing your question, you will have to ask again.

 

[_A]

A, along the lines of fish- what do you think of this thread?

If you could give me your thoughts on it as a fisherman.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=146310&highlight=153+fish

I think that, while the number may have had meaning for the author, in the authors time, it would be terribly difficult to say what that meant for certain now. What I will point out is that people who have that 153 number in their head will see it appear everywhere. It will seem magical. I will show you, if you will simply try to remember the number 42 (which I think is meaningless) you will see it everywhere, too.

 

[Hellisreal]

I think that, while the number may have had meaning for the author, in the authors time, it would be terribly difficult to say what that meant for certain now. What I will point out is that people who have that 153 number in their head will see it appear everywhere. It will seem magical. I will show you, if you will simply try to remember the number 42 (which I think is meaningless) you will see it everywhere, too.

That seems reasonable, I can’t argue that.
Of all numbers to pick, why did you pick 42? I spent exactly that on groceries today.

 

[_A]

That seems reasonable, I can’t argue that.
Of all numbers to pick, why did you pick 42? I spent exactly that on groceries today.

I saw the number on a piece of paper on my desk.

 

[Pax]

You don’t own people. No-one does. Slavery was abolished a long time ago in my corner of the world.
To say that your god owns people is just as wrong.
Slavery may be supported by the bible, but it is still wrong.
I catch, kill and eat fish. Same for ptarmigan( I hope) pigs cows and chickens. I do not justify it, I just eat them. If one talked to me about it, I might change my mind about eating it.
If I am still missing your question, you will have to ask again.

Sorry, but by definition everything belongs to God. Afterall, He is the creator. I have no problem with you or anyone else participating in hunting and fishing. I support these activities myself. The problem is that you cannot justify your actions in regards to the fish that you catch, starve of water and oxygen, fillet, cook, and then eat if you will not at the same time allow that the Creator has control and sovereignty over His creation.

That is the crux of the problem as I see it; I find it difficult to understand your thinking when you begin to establish the rules as to what the Creator is and is not allowed to do. Your moral yardsticks appear to be a sham when you do not apply them to yourself when interacting with creatures that are inferior to you. That is why I am persisting in this line of questioning. It seems that there is a disconnect in your logic. Perhaps, I am missing something.

By the way…who says that you own the fish? How did you acquire rights of any kind over fish? You did not create them. In most cases you have not farmed them either. You have merely harvested them as if you had total sovereignty over them.

 

[Pax]

Because the idea of a creator as presented in the OT ( and ratified by your god in the NT) is ludicrous. If your god made everything, then he made sin, and made all people sinners. (unless he messed up - then he is not your omnipotent being anymore). He made them this way JUST to torture and bully those who didn’t fit his requirements. There is no analogy that makes this seem OK. If you have a dog, sure you are allowed to kick it (though not by law, or by accepted ethics). If you have children, are you also allowed to kick them? No you are not. People are not chattels, and treating them as if they were is beastly and primitive. I know that the bible says it is OK to kill whole communities - if they guess wrong on the god question, or something. Trouble is, the bible also says it is OK to keep slaves…or to beat your wife…or to kill your children. It is abundantly clear that if old Yahweh was examined for his behaviour that the laws of my country would lock him away - many countries would simply execute him (say for war crimes - like ordering the babies heads dashed against the rocks.)
Why should god not live up to our ethical standards? Eternal torture for minor offenses such as disbelief?
Perhaps the bible and Yahweh stories have it all wrong.

God did not mess things up. Man did that.

 

[Tracyms1974]

We’ve been married for 41 years and jealousy has never been part of our marriage.

Jealousy has no business in a loving, trusting relationship. Get it out of yours.

First of all, I don’t appreciate your attitude. You know nothing about my marriage (which is rotten, BTW. Happy?) and you don’t know what it is I was trying to explain to A. I would appreciate an apology from you.

What I was trying to explain is why in the scriptures God says He is a jealous God. I compared this “good” jealousy that God has for us to the natural jealousy that a husband and wife have for each other. If there were absolutely no jealously in a marriage, then the passion between a husband and a wife would be about like that of co-workers in an office. A small level of jealousy is healthy and expected.

I await my apology.

Tracy

 

[i_have_no_names]

An atheist *can *believe nothing. Get over your error. An atheist who does not believe **there is no god **is perfectly acceptable.

Welcome to the forums
I know I’m coming to this thread a little late, but you seem happy to answer questions, so I have a few.
By what I quoted above, do you mean that atheists are capable of believing nothing at all? If an atheist doesn’t believe there is no God does that mean they believe there is a God? Say you’re holding a yellow pencil in your hand. If you don’t believe anything, do you believe that the pencil is really a pencil? Do you believe it’s really yellow? Do you believe it’s really in your hand, and if not, do you believe it’s in someone else’s hand? Do you believe hands exist? What about fish - do you believe fish exist? When you win a game of chess, do you believe you won? …Do you believe in yourself, or do you have no self-esteem? Do you believe you exist? I know that’s a lot of questions, but I’m curious.

-Anne

 

[phooney]

I’m not sure about A, I get the impression he will probably say he believes none of those things, but will live his life going by the best evidence available at the time.

Myself, I will believe some of those things, but will be happy to change my belief upon contrary evidence.

 

[Tracyms1974]

I didn’t mention that god killed people, the bible states it quite plainly in a few places. That is force.

You say force, I say punishment. I can see where you’re coming from a little bit. Maybe God felt that if He didn’t get rid of these people, they would hurt other people, who knows? Kinda like a supernatural form of capital punishment. I don’t really have an answer for why God kills people, but He does a pretty good job of “keeping” the ones that are good people and try hard to do His will. Look at all the trouble He went to to keep Noah and his family alive. If you are doing what you’re supposed to do, then God will work harder to keep you alive simply because He needs you to do His work while here on Earth. In other words, you are an asset to Him if you behave; you’re a liability if you sin badly.

Tracy

 

[Hellisreal]

You say force, I say punishment. I can see where you’re coming from a little bit. Maybe God felt that if He didn’t get rid of these people, they would hurt other people, who knows? Kinda like a supernatural form of capital punishment. I don’t really have an answer for why God kills people, but He does a pretty good job of “keeping” the ones that are good people and try hard to do His will. Look at all the trouble He went to to keep Noah and his family alive. If you are doing what you’re supposed to do, then God will work harder to keep you alive simply because He needs you to do His work while here on Earth. In other words, you are an asset to Him if you behave; you’re a liability if you sin badly.

Tracy

Hi Tracy, I totally disagree with everything you just said. Especially the bold.

 

[_A]

Sorry, but by definition everything belongs to God. Afterall, He is the creator. I have no problem with you or anyone else participating in hunting and fishing. I support these activities myself. The problem is that you cannot justify your actions in regards to the fish that you catch, starve of water and oxygen, fillet, cook, and then eat if you will not at the same time allow that the Creator has control and sovereignty over His creation.

That is the crux of the problem as I see it; I find it difficult to understand your thinking when you begin to establish the rules as to what the Creator is and is not allowed to do. Your moral yardsticks appear to be a sham when you do not apply them to yourself when interacting with creatures that are inferior to you. That is why I am persisting in this line of questioning. It seems that there is a disconnect in your logic. Perhaps, I am missing something.

By the way…who says that you own the fish? How did you acquire rights of any kind over fish? You did not create them. In most cases you have not farmed them either. You have merely harvested them as if you had total sovereignty over them.

As humans, we eat life.
You are comparing the value of a human life to that of a fish? Why aren’t you out saving fish souls, if they are the same?
I can tell you. It is because humans are our group and we feel a group loyalty. You likely will keep saving humans until they are all saved, only then to move on to the souls of the fishes.
I could accept your god killing enough fish to feed himself. I will not accept the notion that a being who kills and hates so much is good.
I think it is clear that out societies, for the most part, have moved past all that. I know that I have. Have you considered just how wrong it looks for your Yahweh to punish people for being sinners, after he made everyone a sinner?

 

[notself]

First of all, I don’t appreciate your attitude. You know nothing about my marriage (which is rotten, BTW. Happy?) and you don’t know what it is I was trying to explain to A. I would appreciate an apology from you.

What I was trying to explain is why in the scriptures God says He is a jealous God. I compared this “good” jealousy that God has for us to the natural jealousy that a husband and wife have for each other. If there were absolutely no jealously in a marriage, then the passion between a husband and a wife would be about like that of co-workers in an office. A small level of jealousy is healthy and expected.

I await my apology.

Tracy

You said in post 408:

When you say, “jealous,” you assume that it’s in a bad way. God is jealous in the way that a husband would be jealous if his wife were flirting with another man, or vice versa. He CARES whether or not we care for Him or not. If we start to follow a false god of some sort or start a blatant life of sin, that’s like adultery to Him, as if you were "cheating’ on Him in some way. Wouldn’t it be nice to know that somebody cared about you enough that He didn’t want you to do anything to separate you from His friendship?

Here you justify God being jealous as a way of showing love. You equate jealousy with love.

A responded in post 419:

Tracy, if a man is jealous about his wife’s behavior, it is not noble. It is manipulative and controlling and ugly. If a couple are going to be together, I would think that willing sharing would be a much better program. Same goes for Yahweh. Instead of fixing his mistakes, he kills them in floods, or tortures them eternally in hell.
Beneath my moral standards, not to mention the standards of any civilized country today.

You said in post 477:

First of all, you MUST not be married.

This statement indicates that you are married, which you admit, and that jealousy is part of marriage, which you also admit.

I then made the following comment in post 500:

**If **you find yourself jealous, then you need to look to your own insecurities. Why do you think your spouse would cheat? Is there something about your behavior that would cause your spouse to want to cheat?.. Jealousy has no business in a loving, trusting relationship. Get it out of yours.

Please note that I used the word “If”. You are the one who brought up jealousy; said that jealousy was a way of showing love; accused someone who disagreed with you of not being married. Obviously you consider jealousy to be part of marriage.

Because of this I responded based on my years of marriage. You then respond by doing what you accuse me of, categorizing my marriage by saying:

If there were absolutely no jealously in a marriage, then the passion between a husband and a wife would be about like that of co-workers in an office.

Obviously, we disagree on what constitutes a happy marriage. That does not mean that any apologies are necessary. So, please don’t apologize.

 

[_A]

First of all, I don’t appreciate your attitude. You know nothing about my marriage (which is rotten, BTW. Happy?) and you don’t know what it is I was trying to explain to A. I would appreciate an apology from you.

What I was trying to explain is why in the scriptures God says He is a jealous God. I compared this “good” jealousy that God has for us to the natural jealousy that a husband and wife have for each other. If there were absolutely no jealously in a marriage, then the passion between a husband and a wife would be about like that of co-workers in an office. A small level of jealousy is healthy and expected.

I await my apology.

Tracy

Tracy, I have to agree that jealousy has no place in a loving relationship. If you were to be with me, and want to be with someone else, I would not be right to be jealous, not if I wanted to be respectful of you. I would get out of your way, and consider that we were not together (in the exclusive sex way) anymore. How would being jealous add anything to a relationship?

 

[_A]

Welcome to the forums
I know I’m coming to this thread a little late, but you seem happy to answer questions, so I have a few.
By what I quoted above, do you mean that atheists are capable of believing nothing at all?

Yes.

If an atheist doesn’t believe there is no God does that mean they believe there is a God?

No. Part of your misunderstanding is indicated by your capitalization of the word god. I understand that your current custom is to say god when you mean Yahweh or Christ, but it leaves me without a word to use for the class that they, and Baal, and Apollo fall into. (They are all gods.)

Say you’re holding a yellow pencil in your hand. If you don’t believe anything, do you believe that the pencil is really a pencil?

No. I accept that it is a pencil, but if someone showed me that it did not fit the definition of pencil, or that it was in fact writing in ink, then I would be ready to change what I thought.

Do you believe it’s really yellow?

No. I could identify the colour according to your offered standard, but ‘yellow’ would be wrong anyhow. Most of them are kind of orange.

i have no names;3009144:

Do you believe it’s really in your hand, and if not, do you believe it’s in someone else’s hand?

No, and no. Are you seeing a pattern of not ‘believing’ here?

Do you believe hands exist?

No need to believe there, I can usually check easily enough.

What about fish - do you believe fish exist?

No. I don’t believe.

When you win a game of chess, do you believe you won?

No, I check (pun intended)

…Do you believe in yourself, or do you have no self-esteem?

I hope you get it now, but I don’t believe.

Do you believe you exist?

No.

I know that’s a lot of questions, but I’m curious.

-Anne

I don’t mind a lot of questions. Let me try to explain. If you believe something, like say, you believe that cutting your finger off is wrong. If you are told that your fingernail has turned cancerous and you must have your finger amputated or die, you need to dispel that original belief in favour of the new one (a fingerless life is better than none).

 

[_A]

I’m not sure about A, I get the impression he will probably say he believes none of those things, but will live his life going by the best evidence available at the time.

Myself, I will believe some of those things, but will be happy to change my belief upon contrary evidence.

You are much more succinct than I am lol.
I feel a little funny now about how long I took to say the same thing.

 

[_A]

You say force, I say punishment. I can see where you’re coming from a little bit. Maybe God felt that if He didn’t get rid of these people, they would hurt other people, who knows? Kinda like a supernatural form of capital punishment. I don’t really have an answer for why God kills people, but He does a pretty good job of “keeping” the ones that are good people and try hard to do His will. Look at all the trouble He went to to keep Noah and his family alive. If you are doing what you’re supposed to do, then God will work harder to keep you alive simply because He needs you to do His work while here on Earth.

Tracy

This is Yahweh using force to make us ‘free’ humans do what he wishes. He didn’t need to go to a lot of trouble to keep Noah’s family alive - being omnipotent, he could have just killed everyone else with a thought. He didn’t. Instead, he drowned everyone and everything. Slowly.
Look at your summation, again -

In other words, you are an asset to Him if you behave; you’re a liability if you sin badly.

It looks like if you are a liability (because of the sin that Yahweh planted in his creatures, according to the bible) then he will torture you for eternity, via his new incarnation.
Is part of the joy of heaven knowing that lots of people who were bad are suffering eternally in a bad place?
I’ll pass thank you.

 

[i_have_no_names]

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but you seem to believe that you don’t believe anything… Kinda reminds me of that Green Day song where they sing “I have no belief, but I believe I’m a walking contradiction”…