I am an atheist

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus

Apologies! I had an old friend visiting town last night, and then work today, and this thread just grows at a phenomenal rate!

I’m hoping I will be able to catch up with it all tonight and respond to various people who have been kind enough to address me.

Thanks

No problem. Hope you enjoyed catching up with your old friend!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus

“I know you came into this discussion late, Phooney, so you might have missed the challenge given to me by A, which was to provide objective evidence that an omniscient being actually exists.”

Indeed I did come to the conversation late, but I did (eventually) catch up with the entire thread, certainly not an easy task!
…

You are more patient than i am. That’s a good character trait!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus… You are correct, I can’t think of any place which, when conquered, was shovelled into the sea. Mind you, I haven’t searched through all the history looking for such examples. However, I’m thinking that Ezekiel was aware of where Tyre was, on the coast. …

Those were my thoughts when i first discovered this prophecy. Before then i was unaware that such evidence existed to show that the scriptures are divine, rather than human, in origin.

It’s refreshing to see you are not close minded and biased Phooney!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus… However, as far as prophecy goes (I think I mentioned this to you in the other thread?) I think they are pretty weak when people are able to act them out themselves.

Besides that, the only name that Ezekiel was able to give was not the conquerer that was going to be responsible for the scraping to the bare rock, it was the name of the contemporary aspiring conquerer, Nebuchadnezzar… .

Yes, but Ezekiel also indicated that many kings (not just Nebuchadnezzar) would bring about the demise of the mainland city of Tyre.

I think it is important to consider the evidence with an open mind. If you can at least accept the possibility that an omniscient God exists, then you can imagine that he or she or it would be aware of your objection that this was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Indeed, this God would in fact know, hundreds of years before a word left your mouth, what your objections would be. This God would understand that if the prophet had mentioned Alexander the Great by name, you might now be calling foul, claiming that the evidence this was self-fulfilling was without question!

“The text mentions the Greek general by name!” you or A might object, “how could he not have been made aware of it?”

However, if you demand such a burden of proof that a prophet give the name of an ancient king in his prediction, then you and i can look at the Book of Daniel. Here the prophet gives the precise name of the Persian king who would allow the Jewish people to return to Jerusalem after the fall of Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylonian empire.

If i were to point out how the Jewish prophet Daniel provided the name of king Darius long before the man was king, would this be sufficient to convince you that an omniscient being might have had something to do with the predictions in the Bible?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

@Socrates4Jesus… There’s also the other problem of the prophecy saying that Tyre would never be found again, which it clearly was, unless the prophecy was wrong about it being destroyed. It seems like an unavoidable, and cataclysmic, internal contradiction.

Phooney:

I live in an area of the United States that has frequent tornadoes. One ripped right through a major metropolitan area near where i live. It overturned cars in the parking lot outside the movie theater where my wife and youngest son were watching one of the Shrek movies.

Tornadoes have been known to completely remove homes from their foundation, break them to bits, and deposit the remains many miles away. Now, if this had happened to my home and i came to you, my neighbor, in despair, saying, “My home is gone!” would you reply that my home was not lost because the ground it was standing on is still there on the other side of our street? Would you walk across the street, stand on the bare ground where my home once stood, and say with a smile, “Look, i found your house!”

With this in mind, please reread Ezekiel’s words:

19 “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD.”*(Ezekiel, chapter 26)*Notice that he does not claim that the location where the mainland city once stood would never be found. Neither does he say that the remains of the mainland city at the bottom of the Mediterranean Sea would not be found. Rather, he says the mainland city itself would never be found, because where it once stood would become a bare rock with nothing of the ancient city remaining.

 

[_A]

1. 
   *]All credible Historians of ancient history agree that Alexander the Great had no contact with Jewish people prior to his invasion of Palestine, or during his invasion of Palestine.

1. 
   A world leader and successful conqueror could have gotten the story second-hand from someone who did see the texts. So long ago, yet you are so sure of your ‘evidence’. I don’t agree with this statement.
   

   *]What we understand of ancient Jewish customs and prohibitions regarding non-Jewish people touching the scriptures indicate that no steward of a copy of the Torah and Prophets would have allowed the pagan Alexander to touch or read the sacred texts.

   So he may have just told him the story. This answer is much more likely than to say that Yahweh stepped in that one time. There have been other holes poked in this story by phooney. I think we should move on.
   

   *]The Jewish people were not Alexander the Great’s enemy, the Tyrians and Egyptians were. The general would have no compelling reason to research the non-pagan Jewish religion.
   The first objection you do not deny as being true.

   Yup, I do.
   

   I do not think you will have any rebuttal for objections 2 or 3, either. Your only point is that if you were Alexander you would research your enemy.

   Alexander did research his enemies - this is evidenced by his reported successes.

 

[_A]

and c) Are falsifiable

lol

 

[_A]

This world has an originator

This is where you go off into the world that exists only in your mind, and the mind of the faithful. The thing about chess is that the pieces don’t have life - the players do. The pieces are not even necessary to play a game - nor a board. Yahweh (if he really did create the world) causes suffering because he wants to, not because he needs to - being omnipotent, he couldn’t have needs.

I know, you don’t believe in God, for you said so. And you know, that is a choice given to you to exercise freely.

You can choose to believe in something, but not believing is the default position.

 

[AliciaCL]

You might find enlightening a panel discussion with former atheists who have become Catholic. You can listen to the most recent program of EWTN’s “The Journey Home” online. Just search for EWTN and The Journey home. Then click on listen to recent shows. The former atheist panel is the first on the list. It may get you reconsidering some of your points.

 

[_A]

All you’ve got to do is go into any prison to see that sin exists.

I have been in a prison recently. I saw no ‘sin’. I saw crime and mental illness, but no ‘sin’. Did you know that before germ theory, there was a theory similar to the ‘sin’ theory. It was the ‘demonic possesion’ theory. Abandoning that nonsense meant that medical science could more appropriately deal with things like epilepsy, schizophrenia and other mental illnesses.

Sometimes, as in the cases of adultery,

Again, not a sin unless you can provide evidence that sin exists. A definition of sin might be a good place to start. Don’t bother with the ‘missing the mark’ one, it doesn’t cover things like original sin, which suggests that an infant, who has not missed ANY mark, has some of this sin.

co-habitating,

So having a roommate is ‘sin’, or just if you engage in certain acts? Where is this detailed in the bible?

getting drunk,

That Van Gogh guy made a painting of the last supper where all the apostles and even Jesus were drinking wine. Was he just slandering the church?

sex before marriage,

Does this include self-stimulation? Kissing? Where is the line drawn? More importantly, why?

ABORTION (a BIG sin),

So if someone has a tubal pregnancy, getting a D&C is a ‘sin’? What about a young child who is the victim of incest?

The reason they are sins is because they hurt you as a person, they hurt God,

I know from experience that some of these don’t hurt me. You are mistaken.

So basically, if you’ve done any of these, then you are a sinner.

You have not given evidence that sin exists. You have shown examples of crimes and anti-social behaviour, but not sin.

Remember that Jesus did NONE of these.

Evidence?

How He managed to do that, I’ll never know, but I’ve done quite a few of the non-crime items above. (NOT abortion.) This makes me a sinner. However, I am up-to-date in my visits to the confessionial, so right now, I’m not too worried about this fact.

Aaahhh the confessional…I remember. Some person tells you how to atone. How does he know?
Since I have no belief in Yahweh, I also do not worry.

 

[_A]

How did you know I did beadwork? Is it on my profile? I forgot. I’ve put it down for a while. Maybe I’ll pick it back up, I don’t know. The items I like to make the most are rosaries and religious jewelry. I can make necklaces, bracelets, and earrings. I’ve made a few secular pieces, like I made a necklace and matching earrings for a wedding I was reading for. I’ve made a couple of eyeglass holders, also. One time when we were broke I made jewelry for Christmas. I did an okay job I think.

Tracy

I think if you give something you made with your skills and time, you are giving a better gift than most.

 

[_A]

Evidence that sin exists?

Tell me of some one you know that hasn’t died?

We all die.

That is evidence of biology. Not evidence of sin. If lack of sin meant that one would not die, then why do some infants with no bad deeds on their slate die? Is it just to satisfy a vengeful Yahweh?

 

[_A]

Until you can prove that you are just as capable as the conceptually described Supreme Being under discussion, I think that you should simply concede the points I’ve made and then we can move on to the actual scriptures that describe your concerns as you have outlined them.

I already did prove that I am superior to Yahweh. I challenged him to a thumb war, and he lost by default (he didn’t compete).
You want me to accept the notion of a supreme being before demonstrating that he is supreme. What you interperet the bible to say is not nearly as important as what it DOES say.
I think if everyone read the bible, there would be far more atheists.

I have by no means dismissed your concerns.

You are right you haven’t. You are trying to, though, by asking me to accept that there is a being who is sovereign over me. I do not accept. I base this rejection on clear evidence.

Over to you, sir.

 

[look3467]

I have been in a prison recently. I saw no ‘sin’. I saw crime and mental illness, but no ‘sin’. Did you know that before germ theory, there was a theory similar to the ‘sin’ theory. It was the ‘demonic possesion’ theory. Abandoning that nonsense meant that medical science could more appropriately deal with things like epilepsy, schizophrenia and other mental illnesses.Again, not a sin unless you can provide evidence that sin exists. A definition of sin might be a good place to start. Don’t bother with the ‘missing the mark’ one, it doesn’t cover things like original sin, which suggests that an infant, who has not missed ANY mark, has some of this sin.So having a roommate is ‘sin’, or just if you engage in certain acts? Where is this detailed in the bible?That Van Gogh guy made a painting of the last supper where all the apostles and even Jesus were drinking wine. Was he just slandering the church?Does this include self-stimulation? Kissing? Where is the line drawn? More importantly, why?So if someone has a tubal pregnancy, getting a D&C is a ‘sin’? What about a young child who is the victim of incest? I know from experience that some of these don’t hurt me. You are mistaken.You have not given evidence that sin exists. You have shown examples of crimes and anti-social behaviour, but not sin. Evidence?Aaahhh the confessional…I remember. Some person tells you how to atone. How does he know?
Since I have no belief in Yahweh, I also do not worry.

Ah, I didn’t make those comments you quoted me on, please double check your notes.
And make a correction,
Thanks, AJ

 

[_A]

Ah, I didn’t make those comments you quoted me on, please double check your notes.
And make a correction,
Thanks, AJ

I have reported myself, because I can’t figure out how to correct it. Sorry about that, Look.

 

[justinthemartyr]

A

it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe in God.

Try proving His non existence in a court of law. there is far more evidence for it than there is against it, especially in nature and the natural law.

Even the courts agree and have the term God in their courtrooms, every one of them.

are 5 billion people wrong in the world and you, a small minority correct?

That is pretty arrogant of you if you think so. who are you to say there is no God? You cannot even stop the wind from blowing, let alone tell me what moves it, because all things go back to that Prime Mover who is God Himself.

 

[look3467]

That is evidence of biology. Not evidence of sin. If lack of sin meant that one would not die, then why do some infants with no bad deeds on their slate die? Is it just to satisfy a vengeful Yahweh?

What we inherited from Adam is the flesh. By one man, flesh entered into the world, and all flesh has a death sentence, baby or not.
The same spirit residing in the flesh, prior to Christ also is dead to God.
All of humanity’s spirits are classified as death to God.
Not only does the flesh die, but the spirit also is dead to God and must of necessity be renewed.

This renewing process of the spirit in man, comes as a result of a renewable Adam, or a second Adam, one without a life spirit, a spirit that is not dead, yet in the flesh, whose spirit is given as life to all mankind as a renewal.

Only through faith in God can this process happen, for otherwise, it is unprovable by human science.

Freedom of choice has been granted us to experience it at the cost of God’s Son.

Problem? Not everybody knows it. Those who do know it are favored by blessings of inner peace in the midst of a troubled world, and those who don’t, the world is their solace.

Technically, what one sows, that shall we also reap by the power of choice.

A baby who dies after birth, had no choices to make, but is innocent and without sin, covered by the blood of Jesus, as their spirits are instantaneously renewed at death by Him.

As a believer, I trust and rely on the word of God as being all conclusive of every soul that ever lived, living and all future ones not yet born.

God is nothing but love, and He corrects in love and no evil can be found in Him.

Now, let mankind tell you God is evil, and unless you come to know God, you will also believe it as told.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I have reported myself, because I can’t figure out how to correct it. Sorry about that, Look.

Hey, I’ve made the same mistake, and no harm done.

If I were perfect I’d be nailed to the cross.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

A

it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe in God.

Try proving His non existence in a court of law. there is far more evidence for it than there is against it, especially in nature and the natural law.

Even the courts agree and have the term God in their courtrooms, every one of them.

are 5 billion people wrong in the world and you, a small minority correct?

That is pretty arrogant of you if you think so. who are you to say there is no God? You cannot even stop the wind from blowing, let alone tell me what moves it, because all things go back to that Prime Mover who is God Himself.

God is proven in one’s heart!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[_A]

A

it takes more faith to not believe in God than it does to believe in God.

It takes faith to believe. I do not believe.

Try proving His non existence in a court of law. there is far more evidence for it than there is against it, especially in nature and the natural law.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You claim there is a god. I don’t yet have reason to believe you. This is not a position of faith.

are 5 billion people wrong in the world and you, a small minority correct?

That is pretty arrogant of you if you think so. who are you to say there is no God? You cannot even stop the wind from blowing, let alone tell me what moves it, because all things go back to that Prime Mover who is God Himself.

You say that I am arrogant for saying that I do not have sufficient reason to believe in Yahweh, yet you think you know many details about him which you quite clearly could not know, and certainly can not provide evidence for. Who is being arrogant?