I am an atheist

[_A]

Do you ever go on Yahoo Chess?

Maybe a long time ago…maybe we should have a game…how do I start?

 

[phooney]

Not you, A

 

[Aleii]

got a bit of unexpected free time!

Notself – thanks for the link. The word definitely needs to be spread on this important issue! Sometimes we all need a reminder about how we really can make a difference.

Pax:

There is the literal sense of scripture and this is the first way that the reader is to examine it. The literal sense simply refers to the meaning intended by the author. Even this requires interpretation because of the nuances in languages, the cultural influences and understandings, idioms, and the generally accepted methods of thought and expression of the times.

Just as an aside, this is partially true. If I say I am beating a dead horse, I am not literally doing it. But if I say I am beating a dead horse, then go on to talk about flies around the dead horse, that I used a 2x4, that the horse’s name was Fred, that the horse died at 5 years old, that my brother beat his horse when it died, etc, I’d have good reason to think that I really am doing something to a horse that died. The debatable instances in the bible are not 1, but many, therefore, that leads credence to think that you can not always explain it all away based upon nuances of language.

At this juncture I would point out that understanding and interpreting scripture is not always easy. I hope that the atheists participating on this thread can fully appreciate that point.

No, its not easy to interpret, which is another point of contention.

Now, onto Isaiah 13
Yes, I understand this is considered a prophecy and could be considered the writer’s
version of something being attributed to god – therefore that part is to be taken as
allegory/cultural/etc. That is not my main point of contention with the OT.

So going back, if your point is that god did not do(i.e order) some of what the bible attributes to him, and we should see that at allegory/cultural/linguistic, etc, where are we going with this conversation? I have already stated I can partially reconcile these things by taking it as allegory (/cultural/language, etc) You haven’t answered my main question yet, (except to say that humans can’t know god): Show me a rational reason why a perfect god would purposefully cause innocents, such as a child under the age of reason, unnecessary suffering. I thought you were trying to prove that god can do absolutely anything with humans and be well within his moral rights as a perfect being? Am I misunderstanding your earlier posts?

God may indeed have options that are not available to humans, but the conclusions you have drawn are not logically supported.

Describe where the logical inconsistencies are please, instead of just making one statement (unless you refer to that we can’t know/can’t judge god, see below if so). Are we still talking about the same thing? I know I am not always clear on my presentations either, so I want to make sure the points are being transmitted to both sides accurately.

God sees everything all at once and can make a supreme and perfect judgement because He created all things and intimately knows and understands them with perfect discernment while we do not.

I was concerned this was going to come into our conversation again. This is more of a dismissal than it is a point. I could easily say the same thing about any deity – zeus is greater that you, you nor any lowly human can not ever fully understand or judge his actions, and if you think something that contradicts him, then you are in the wrong– there’s not much to say about that statement, since it simply dismisses the argument and simultaneously demeans the other person for bringing the issue up(I interpret your statement as a more eloquent version of my blunt summation). As I said earlier, I fail to see the productivity in this statement, as well as disagree with it.

 

[_A]

It does, though. How do you know God doesn’t exist? Are you 100% certain he doesn’t exist.

Are you 100% certain that Thor doesn’t exist? What would your certainty prove?
I live my life without believing. I know it is tough for you to see it, but try to understand.

 

[Aleii]

A lot of people have been understandably confused about the term “atheist”. Hopefully this can clear some of it up.

"What is atheism?"

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.

Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist. Just lacking belief in Gods is often referred to as the “weak atheist” position; whereas believing that gods do not (or cannot) exist is known as “strong atheism.”

Regarding people who have never been exposed to the concept of ‘god’: Whether they are ‘atheists’ or not is a matter of debate. Since you’re unlikely to meet anyone who has never encountered religion, it’s not a very important debate…

It is important, however, to note the difference between the strong and weak atheist positions. “Weak atheism” is simple skepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. “Strong atheism” is an explicitly held belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are “strong atheists.” There is a qualitative difference in the “strong” and “weak” positions; it’s not just a matter of degree.

Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials.
**
“But isn’t disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn’t exist?”**

Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. Which brings us to agnosticism.
**
“What is agnosticism then?”**

The term ‘agnosticism’ was coined by Professor T.H. Huxley at a meeting of the Metaphysical Society in 1876. He defined an agnostic as someone who disclaimed both (“strong”) atheism and theism, and who believed that the question of whether a higher power existed was unsolved and insoluble. Another way of putting it is that an agnostic is someone who believes that we do not know for sure whether God exists. Some agnostics believe that we can never know.

In recent years, however, the term agnostic has also been used to describe those who simply believe that the evidence for or against God is inconclusive, and therefore are undecided about the issue.

To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as “strict agnosticism” and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as “empirical agnosticism.”

Words are slippery things, and language is inexact. Beware of assuming that you can work out someone’s philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as “weak atheism,” and use the word “atheism” only when referring to “strong atheism.”

Beware also that because the word “atheist” has so many shades of meaning, it is very difficult to generalize about atheists. About all you can say for sure is that atheists don’t believe in God. For example, it certainly isn’t the case that all atheists believe that science is the best way to find out about the universe.

infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

 

[Aleii]

I examine, and stay open to new evidence. I choose not to believe. That is the ‘choice’ I made. I wouldn’t call it a choice myself, I think the evidence is in favour of not believing in Thor, Apollo, Yahweh, Baal or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you have found evidence that any of these don’t exist, I would be interested in examining it. As far as I know, there is equal evidence for the non-existence of all of them.

Thanks, A, I feel the same as you. I have tried to force Catholic belief onto myself but was unable. To not have belief was not a choice for me.

 

[Aleii]

Hello:

Actually this is what really bothers me about atheists. Seems they are too arrogant not to even understand what they don’t like to believe. More so to challenge others who understands both sides of the coin.

Sorry, but i have been an agnostic once or twice. Maybe tell us what bothers you not to believe in what we believe?

Great stereotype

 

[Aleii]

What can one learn from an atheist? What can one learn from a heretic, how to be a good heretic? I am here to be with my Catholic brothers and sisters

This saddens me that you would come to the Non-Catholic forum, to a clearly atheist thread, to state your disdain of atheists. What can you learn from an atheist? How about looking at it this way: you can learn a science, you can learn chess techniques, you can learn more about humankind, and what is important to people, you can learn how to better reach people in kindness, you can learn how people think, and how to debate with another who has different thoughts than you do, you can learn how to create a fun treat for your kids, you can learn how a needy family needs help, you can learn how to ensure your kid puts forth a good effort in school, just like an atheist can learn from a catholic. Jesus loved all, and spent time with even those that weren’t considered “ideal good people” to him, so I don’t understand where your statement is coming from.

What more is there to say?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are you 100% certain that Thor doesn’t exist?

Thor is a myth. There was no covenant link between him and mankind.

What would your certainty prove?
I live my life without believing. I know it is tough for you to see it, but try to understand.

The difference the Judeo-Christian God is that God established a covenant. First through Adam and Eve, then Noah, then Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then Moses, and finally Jesus Christ. The existence of the Jewish people, prove that God indeed exist.

and no it is not touch for me to see it. I have faith in God. What do you have? You have faith within yourself. A man, bound to make mistakes. God however, doesn’t make mistakes. He is immutable, unchanging.

I also like to note that I know Jesus exist for the mere fact that we have historical documents from Josephus and others who acknowledge him. The burial cloth of the Shroud of Turin is also evidence that Jesus Christ is real. He is in fact, God made flesh. The Second Person of the Trinity. I know you don’t believe this, but there isn’t any evidence you can provide or prove that God doesn’t exist.

I know for one thing you cannot rely on yourself. I would challenge you to hold your breath for a moment, and see how long you can last.

 

[rboo124]

Way to ignore everything

I’m not ignoring God’s existence, and really that’s all that matters in life.

I don’t need to open myself up for a ‘tit for tat’ debate…I’ve said my peace. If it’s helpful, great, if not, that’s ok, too. Getting sucked into a debating contest with an atheist has proven to be a waste of time to me in the past…if you’re not open to ‘faith’, then there’s really no point in even entertaining the questions with answers. All you seek is ‘proof’ and I’ve already explained I have none to offer…so why do you post that I’m ignoring everything? You are ignoring everything, not me…I’m not the one lacking faith, you are.

This is the song that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friend…and I don’t want to sing it anymore! lol

I’ve already offered a possible solution to building a spiritual relationship with God. You can lead a camel to water, but you can’t force him to drink. We’re all responsible for our own lives and free to live them as we choose. I’m not going to force feed anyone my beliefs if they don’t want them. Have you read the chapter I suggested? If so, let’s discuss your thoughts on it…if not, you aren’t looking for answers, you’re looking for an argument. I’m here to discuss, not argue.

If you’re truly open minded and searching for a possible answer, read the literature I suggested. I have nothing else to offer until you are familiar with that material.

If you’re content with your life, then great. Who am I to continue pounding you with my beliefs if they aren’t yours? It’s almost as if people are damned if they do and damned if they don’t…if I don’t answer your questions, I’m ignoring you…if I do answer your questions, I’m forcing my beliefs on you.

You have freewill to make your own decisions. If you want information, seek it…but, you have to be open to listening to it when it’s offered. If not, additional information may not be offered to you because you aren’t even willing to listen to the information already offered.

 

[stringbeanduck]

Getting sucked into a debating contest with an atheist has proven to be a waste of time to me in the past…

Amen brother! I say all I can but if it moves nowhere then what can you do.

 

[_A]

Thanks, A, I feel the same as you. I have tried to force Catholic belief onto myself but was unable. To not have belief was not a choice for me.

I thank you for these contributions, Aleii. I have had more than a little trouble getting the idea across that atheist does not mean I have a belief to defend. I try to actively hunt down my beliefs and examine them, it makes the suggestion that atheism is a belief kind of insulting (though I know it is often inadvertant). The article you posted is a great description.
Of course, pigeon holes never seem to work with me.

 

[rboo124]

I thank you for these contributions, Aleii. I have had more than a little trouble getting the idea across that atheist does not mean I have a belief to defend. I try to actively hunt down my beliefs and examine them, it makes the suggestion that atheism is a belief kind of insulting (though I know it is often inadvertant). The article you posted is a great description.
Of course, pigeon holes never seem to work with me.

Why is it so important for people to accept your side’s standpoint that atheism is not a belief? Just because a person authored an article stating it is not a belief does not mean it’s not a belief.

If you believe that God does not exist, THAT is a belief.

Additionally, isn’t this a very minuscule factor to focus on in perspective of the big picture? It’s as if you’re clutching for a tiny straw to prove as ‘fact’ instead of grabbing the whole bale of hay.

Let’s assume you are correct…Atheism is not a belief…does that pacify you in any way? Why? We’re still at zero here…nothing has been accomplished.

There is, in my opinion, much more reason to believe the existence of God then there is reasonable doubt not to.

Again, I’ve offered a chapter that will take 15 minutes to read on the topic…yet, you’d rather carry on a futile debate for hours then invest the 15 minutes into perhaps educating yourself. I can’t help you with that. You’re not looking for answers, you’re looking for an argument.

You tell me I refer to the material as ‘chapter’ and that you forget what it’s called. Is it THAT difficult to scroll back in the posts to find it? Again, you aren’t open for differing opinions, or you would have gone back to find the information.

Once again, the book is called Alcoholics Anonymous, also known as the ‘Big Book’…Chapter 4, called ‘We Agnostics’. It changed my life. I’m not saying it will change yours, but I know a lot of people who had a spiritual awakening as a result of reading this chapter, myself included. I’m not asking you to ‘believe’ it…I’m simply suggesting you read it.

I’d even be more than happy to PM you the chapter so you don’t have to borrow the book from a library or purchase the book. It’s totallly up to you…I think I’m making it very easy for you if you hold any interest at all in this topic.

 

[_A]

Thor is a myth. There was no covenant link between him and mankind.

The difference the Judeo-Christian God is that God established a covenant. First through Adam and Eve, then Noah, then Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then Moses, and finally Jesus Christ. The existence of the Jewish people, prove that God indeed exist.

So far, there is a story about a god named Yahweh, and a story of a god named Thor. Since both stories are fiction, as far as I can tell, they are equal ‘evidence’.

and no it is not touch for me to see it. I have faith in God. What do you have? You have faith within yourself. A man, bound to make mistakes. God however, doesn’t make mistakes. He is immutable, unchanging.

I don’t need faith. I am not afraid of not knowing an answer. I can accept not knowing an answer - in fact, I enjoy questions more than answers, usually.

I also like to note that I know Jesus exist for the mere fact that we have historical documents from Josephus and others who acknowledge him.

Showing that someone existed is a far cry from evidence of miracles.

Mannyfit75:

The burial cloth of the Shroud of Turin is also evidence that Jesus Christ is real.

Here is just one of the many threads here which has debate about the authenticity of the shroud of Turin. I could go look for more specific evidence, but suffice it to say that it is not evidence that the person named Jesus performed miracles.

Mannyfit75:

He is in fact, God made flesh. The Second Person of the Trinity. I know you don’t believe this, but there isn’t any evidence you can provide or prove that God doesn’t exist.

If you want people to take your beliefs seriously, I think it is up to you to provide evidence supporting them.

Mannyfit75:

I know for one thing you cannot rely on yourself. I would challenge you to hold your breath for a moment, and see how long you can last.

I can indeed hold my breath for a certain number of seconds (10 is quite easy) I don’t see the point here, unless your god can do something special in this area and it can be demonstrated.

 

[exoflare]

I’m kinda sick of people using the “prove God doesn’t exist” defense. Tu Quoque.

 

[exoflare]

Maybe a long time ago…maybe we should have a game…how do I start?

Maybe? hmm

PM incoming

 

[rboo124]

I’m kinda sick of people using the “prove God doesn’t exist” defense. Tu Quoque.

As are others with the ‘prove God does exist’ challenge.

God has revealed himself many, many times…and, God does not have to prove himself to us, we must prove ourselves to Him! Those who choose not to will have to answer on their day.

Blessed are those who have faith…pray for those who do not.

Have a great night, everyone!

 

[exoflare]

As are others with the ‘prove God does exist’ challenge.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m one of them. Just not crazy about that particular rebuttal. But I think most “atheists” are really agnostics anyway. They’re not really out to “prove” God doesn’t exist in the first place, so it’s pointless to ask them for proof since they don’t claim to have any.

If someone ever claimed they were SURE God does not exist, then yeah that question would be appropriate.

 

[Pax]

This is simple, and as inoffensive as I can make it, but let me try for more clarity.
Your god can’t do anything.
If I am mistaken, show me the evidence. Tell me about it in a quantitative manner, allowing for experimental (and independant) confirmation of your hypothesis.
I was just trying to show you in a simple way how your hypothesis is not reasonable, and not open to refutation (even by facts).
I will give your god another chance with the thumb war, unless you have a better test.

You are continuing to perpetrate something quite goofy. I will repeat my answer from a prior post.

Your challenging God to a thumb war is not a test and proves nothing. Such a challenge would be to bring God down. If you were able to do such a thing you would be greater than God. You are not greater than the Supreme Being. You cannot bring God down. Your challenge is absurd on its face.

 

[_A]

Why is it so important for people to accept your side’s standpoint that atheism is not a belief? Just because a person authored an article stating it is not a belief does not mean it’s not a belief.

If you believe that God does not exist, THAT is a belief.

I agree with you that the statement ‘there is no god’ indicates a belief. I do not believe. I can say that all the evidence I have seen points to a gravity, but I do not believe in it. I will use existing theories to make predictions if I need to, but believing in it would interfere with my wish to have an open mind.

Let’s assume you are correct…Atheism is not a belief…does that pacify you in any way? Why? We’re still at zero here…nothing has been accomplished.

I am not trying to ‘accomplish’ anything like you are suggesting. I am answering questions about myself on this thread, and answering questions about everything else, too. At a frenzied pace. If you are trying to ‘accomplish’ something with me, it might help to tell me what that is.
I don’t want to be pacified either. I wanted you to understand that atheism does not imply a belief in anything. There is an article posted just a little earlier in this thread which explains it quite well (I thought). Perhaps you missed it?

Again, I’ve offered a chapter that will take 15 minutes to read on the topic…yet, you’d rather carry on a futile debate for hours then invest the 15 minutes into perhaps educating yourself. I can’t help you with that. You’re not looking for answers, you’re looking for an argument.

I think you are putting words in my mouth when you say that I believe in something. You are now claiming to know my very thoughts. I have answered those who have asked why I was here, and you skimmed past it and made accusations to the contrary. This is awfully close to calling me a liar. Let’s try not to get too heated, OK?

You tell me I refer to the material as ‘chapter’ and that you forget what it’s called. Is it THAT difficult to scroll back in the posts to find it? Again, you aren’t open for differing opinions, or you would have gone back to find the information.

No, not too tough, but seriously, every time I open my computer lately, I have a few things to answer (and a few more before I am finished the first round lol). I have been too busy even to play my favorite computer game. I plead busyness and present my posts here as evidence. I will go look for this chapter online, and let you know if it contains special meaning for me.