I am angry and upset

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You might be, but I need to tell you that I also have considered the Orthodox Church because of issues in the Catholic Church, and when I do consider the move, there is always a conviction with a resolution to stay and stand on the truth that has been revealed to me. In my humble opinion, there has been enough self-serving behavior in the Catholic Church throughout her history. I believe that Luther’s behavior was self-serving. What I’m saying is this; stay, pray, and stand. Defend your position in the body of Christ. The Church needs backbone.
Essentially the Greek Orthodox Church is within the body of Christ - we shame the same sacraments…

I am not suggesting that I am leaving the Catholic Church but it seems to me that the Church has drawn the line in the sand and today best identifies with the democratic party through their own social justice issues. I on the other hand disagree with the democratic party on each and every issue and I find it hard today to sit in the pews with the stance our church has taken.

That being said I will be moving my membership to another parish.
 
So I am angry and upset - as a convert to our faith - would I not be better served in the Greek Orthodox faith? It seems to me that have not put themselves in this dirty political game.
I have no reason to think the EO Church is immune to this kind of thing. In those places where it is in the majority, it is far more entwined with the state than the Catholic Church in the U.S. ever dreamed of being.

I will agree that many of our bishops don’t seem to realize that the Democrat Party is no longer the “party for Catholics”. Some have gone down the road of “Liberation Theology Lite”. But many have not, particularly the younger bishops who have been appointed recently. For years, my own bishop (and the diocesan paper) seemed to be servants of the Democrat party. He retired and we got a new bishop who is very different. The diocesan newspaper changed almost overnight. I think what we’re actually seeing is a passing of the old guard. One ought to have patience.

The USCCB is a bureaucracy that long ago bought into “Liberation Theology Lite” (the U.S. version of Liberation Theology). Some of the rumblings from the faithful who object to that are, in my opinion, beginning to have an effect. It is my belief that the bishops in the U.S. are fast approaching a “tipping point” at which the influence of the politically motivated will fade away. I really do believe that.

The Church is a big ship. Like all big ships, the Barque of Peter takes awhile to turn around. But it does turn around. Be of good cheer.
 
You might find that Orthodoxy supports universal health care as well. They are a much smaller group in North America, even when you include all the Orthodox Churches, of which the Greek Orthodox is one. So people don’t always hear as much about what they are saying. Maybe go to an Orthodox forum and suss out what the opinions on this are.

But on another note, the real questions are bigger. First - do you think Orthodoxy is true? Keep in mind that what the Catholic Church says about Orthodoxy is not what the Orthodox say themselves. They generally do not subscribe to the “two-lung theory” that most Catholics do. You would, I think, have a lot of research to do.

Second, do you really think the Church should stay out of politics, or only when you disagree with what they seem to be saying? Should they stop making statements about bills regarding same-sex marriage, or abortion, or anything at all? That is what staying out of politics altogether would mean.

And third - maybe you really have the wrong end of the stick. Are you letting your political beliefs decide your religion, rather than your religion inform your political beliefs? Maybe there is a good reason those priests seem to support the passing of this bill. You aren’t bound as a Catholic to support it to, but you are bound to be humble, and these are the people who have been trained in Catholic theology, formed in Catholic seminaries, and entrusted with the leadership of your parish. And you are a Catholic before you are an American - it is entirely possible that any “American” or other national value could be an un-Catholic value. Nations are temporary, fallible, and man-made, unlike the Church.

Saying you would leave your religion because it doesn’t support your political views is not always wrong, but it can indicate that you are making a god of something besides God.
My point is what do I have to lose if they have the same sacraments?
 
I’m sorry, I really don’t understand your question. You seem to want someone to make it ok for you to be angry at the church and to choose the Greek Orthodox Church. For me that is a personal choice and the only person that can answer that question is you.
I understand you do not understand - and your comments are simply wrong
 
The U.S. Bishops were the most visible and most vocal opponents of the recently passed Health Care Bill. Just look at their website for more info.

I agree that there are more problems with the Bill than just what it says about abortion. However, I don’t think the bishops are out of line with recognizing that our health care system is in need of reform. It is. When premiums go up by double-digit percentage points every year, something needs to change.

If you’re going to be angry at someone, I recommend the politicians who voted for the thing. 😉
 
Reid;6437937:
CPA2;6437896:
The Catholic Church opposes socialism!
This was debated on another thread a few weeks ago. What the Catechism says about socialism is:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.
__

I’m not sure it’s quite right to say that the Church condemns socialism unilaterally. What it says is She condemns the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated with it. It’s a subtle distinction, but a necessary one. There are those who might say the way consecrated religious live in community is “socialist”, and we’d have to have a debate on what socialism actually means. 🙂

Anyway, I hope the reference is helpful.

I think that we need to be careful about throwing around the word socialism and then saying the CC doesn’t allow it. We would have to define the word quite clearly, and in reality all economic systems tend to be a mixture of elements.

There were some very interesting experiments with what one might call “socialist” lay-communities in parts of our Christian past. They weren’t stopped for being un-Christian, but for being threatening to various political/economic interests.
 
Reid;6437937:
CPA2;6437896:
The Catholic Church opposes socialism!
I was on vacation in Florida last summer and when I went to Sunday mass, **the pastor preached against socialism! ** Additionally, The Sunday bulletin had an article in it that explained why the Catholic Church opposed socialism. I talked to the priest after mass and I got a copy of all of the articles in the Sunday bulletins. We talked at some length about priests who voted for Obama and who support socialism. I and that priest are kindered spirits. You would have felt right at home in his parish.

You caught me flat footed. I am in the process of cleaning my desk and I came across copies of a series of articles in the church bulletin explaining why the Catholic Church opposed socialism. I misplaced that information again! However, this is some information from someone else on this forum:

The Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on socialism is very interesting in this regard. Of course, the historical parts of the entry are incomplete, because it was written before WWI. But the discussion of the ways in which socialism is inconsistent with Catholicism remains applicable.

In sum, the Encyclopedia identifies the following respects in which socialism conflicts with Catholic teaching:
  1. Socialism is materialistic. “Socialism appropriates all human desires and centres them on the here-and-now, on material benefit and prosperity. But material goods are so limited in quality, in quantity, and in duration that they are incapable of satisfying human desires, which will ever covet more and more and never feel satisfaction.”
  2. Socialism is deterministic. “Holding that society makes the individuals of which it is composed, and not vice versa, it has quite lost touch with the invigorating Christian doctrine of free will. … Any power which claims to appropriate and discipline [the individual’s] interior life, and which affords him sanctions that transcend all evolutionary and scientific determinism, must necessarily incur Socialist opposition.”
  3. Because of 2, socialism is hostile to the Church and the family. “Socialism, with its essentially materialistic nature, can admit no raison d’etre for a spiritual power, as complementary and superior to the secular power of the State. … The State was never meant to appropriate to itself the main parental duties, it was rather meant to provide the parents, especially poor parents, with a wider, freer, healthier family sphere in which to be properly parental.”
  4. Socialism conflicts with the natural law regarding private property. “If man, [according to Aquinas], has the right to own, control, and use private property, the State cannot give him this right or take it away; it can only protect it.”
In other words: “It is true that the institutions of religion, of the family, and of private ownership are liable to great abuses, but the perfection of human effort and character demands a freedom of choice between good and evil as their first necessary condition. This area of free choice is provided, on the material side, by private ownership; on the spiritual and material, by the Christian Family; and on the purely spiritual by religion. The State, then, instead of depriving men of these opportunities of free and fine production, not only of material but also of intellectual values, should rather constitute itself as their defender.”

Thank you
 
My :twocents: …or two words, I should say:

Solidarity and Subsidiarity. Both are Catholic teaching! In layman’s terms I guess you could say it means that we should help the poor, but not through a welfare state or government-run-anything.

Here is an article on subsidiarity that you might find interesting. acton.org/publications/randl/rl_article_200.php
 
CPA2;6437896:
The Catholic Church opposes socialism!
Can you please show me where you can back this up - I want to footnote this for my notes and current arguments about what is and has happened in my local parish…
Nostis Et Nobiscum (On the Church in the Pontifical States) December 8, 1849 (Pius IX)
The Syllabus Of Errors 1864 (Pius IX)
Rerum Novarum (On Capitol and Labor) May 15, 1891 (Leo XIII)
Quod Apostolici Muneris (On Socialism) December 28, 1878 (Leo XIII)
Lamentabili Sane July 3, 1907 (Pius X) (Does not explicitly mention socialism, but shows how it is creeping into the Church)
Pascendi Dominici Gregis (On the Doctrine of the Modernists) September 8, 1907 (Pius X) (same note as above)
Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum (Appealing For Peace) November 1, 1914 (Benedict XV) (Reaffirms teaching of Leo XIII)
Quadragesimo Anno (Reconstruction of the Social Order) May 15, 1931 (Pius XI) (See particularly paragraphs 78-81)
Nos Es Muy Conocida (On the Religious Situation in Mexico) March 28, 1937 (Pius XI) (See particularly paragraphs 15-16)
Divini Redemptoris (On Atheistic Communism) March 19, 1937 (Pius XI)
Evangelii Praecones (Promotion of Catholic Missions) June 2, 1951 (Pius XII) (See particularly paragraphs 52 & 53)
Octagesima Adveniens - The Eightieth Anniversary Of “Rerum Novarum” (A Call to Action) [Apostolic Letter] May 14, 1971 (Paul VI) (See particularly paragraphs 31-37)
Centesimus Annus (On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum - On Capitol and Labor; On Catholic social teaching) May 1, 1991 (See particularly paragraph 48)

There’s more, but hopefully that helps a bit.
 
Firstly I wish to admit that I speak as an Asian, and Asians are generally disposed against the Republican party as they see them as the epitome of the America which has meddled in thier nations and policy for far too long. However, I will try and write this from as fair-minded a view as possible:

I honestly think that the Catholic Church should and does align themselves with the political views that best reflect those of the Church. The Church shouldn’t be Republican, nor should it be Democrat. In my view, the health care bill is excellent as it would massively overhaul the current system, something which is desperately needed.

However, I don’t see why this means that we cannot respectfully disagree with clauses providing funding for euthanasia/abortion while supporting the rest of the bill. Why do we ever have to condemn the whole bill? Also, just because Nancy Pelosi is doing wrong by campaigning for abortion while being Roman Catholic does not mean all Democrat policies are bad, in fact Democrats often provide welfare and security which massively helps the poor and disabled, something the Church must always support.

Similarly, the Church is really, seriously morally obliged to support Republican pro-life policies. However, not all republican policies are good. They tend towards an overly-capitalistic approach, despite the fact that they are correct in their denunciation of Marxism. Remember that even Pope John Paul II expressed grave disappointment at Bush’s Iraq war.

God Bless.
 
Most of the following information came from the book, “Look What Happened While You Were Sleeping.” ISBN #978-1-878909-09-1 For a copy call Caritas of Birmingham at 205-672-2000, ext. 315 - 24 hours a day

Where does this “Rule of Law” originate and derive its power?

Have you read the Declaration of Independence? It is not just a historical document. It is an unchanging document that holds the key to our freedom. We have lost sight of this document and have put our freedom into the precarious hands of the so-called “majority.”

I compare the Declaration of Independence to the articles of incorporation of a company, and the Constitution to the by-laws of a company. The moral laws of right and wrong are contained in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

The source of the “rule of law” goes back to Divine Law. The Declaration of Independence uses the words, the “equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them.” What do these words really mean?

The ideas of the source of legitimate law were being formulated by the Catholic Church before the Magna Carta. Truth always goes back to the source of truth, which is public revelation, commonly known as the Holy Scriptures.

I repeat, ANY LAW IN TRANSGRESSION OF DIVINE LAW IS INVALID! An unjust law is no law at all! Such laws are to be defied because they do not exist. There is no basis for them. A recent example is Spain’s “laws” on marriages and adoptions. Pope Benedict has ordered citizens of Spain who work in adoption agencies to defy Spain’s new laws of illicit marriages and adoptions. Workers in adoption agencies are to refuse to fill out any paperwork or grant adoption of children to illicit and unnatural marriage unions. Spain’s new law disobeys natural law. NO HUMAN LAW AGAINST NATURAL LAW IS VALID!

I repeat myself again. There is Divine Law, Natural Law and Civil Law, in that order. Man only has control over civil law. Each type of law is separate and you cannot substitute one type of law for another type of law.
 
My point is what do I have to lose if they have the same sacraments?
Well, the Catholic Church says they are in schism, so if you believe that, you are making yourself a schizmatic, from the Vicar of Christ, over political ideology. Presumably you would have to answer for that before God. It would be a mortal sin, and so long as you were in schism you couldn’t confess it and gain absolution, so you would not have access to the Eucharist.

But - the Orthodox would not accept you on those terms anyway. You would have to accept their understanding, which is that they are the Church that Christ founded, and the Catholic Church has seperated themselves from that, and they no longer have valid sacraments and so on. Do you believe that the Catholic sacraments are not real? It is also a long haul to convert to Orthodoxy, it can take more than a year, they want you to be very sure, and they want to be sure of you. It isn’t an easy path, the Orthodox fast 180 days a year, and they can’t marry outside of Orthodoxy.
 
The U.S. Bishops were the most visible and most vocal opponents of the recently passed Health Care Bill.
I understand their position - yet at the same time they were for socialized health care - I disagree with this on many levels…
I agree that there are more problems with the Bill than just what it says about abortion. However, I don’t think the bishops are out of line with recognizing that our health care system is in need of reform. It is. When premiums go up by double-digit percentage points every year, something needs to change.
Unfortunately how the bill is written will increase premiums in the market place until they are forced to lock those rates in - the bill itself is designed to fail and this why I am so upset with the position in which the Bishops have taken…
If you’re going to be angry at someone, I recommend the politicians who voted for the thing. 😉
I am sorry but I cannot be angry at the dems on this one - they who they are and I simply against it on all levels…
 
The problems you cite in the Catholic Church USA may be very valid…I tend to agree with you on most of them and with your frustrations. But…you and I are not the bishop(s)…nor are we charged with their mission (we know this but lets not forget our roles).

Here is some pieces of the Catechism’s guidance to us…our mission
CCC
898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God’s will. . . . It pertains to them in a special way so to illuminate and order all temporal things with which they are closely associated that these may always be effected and grow according to Christ
and maybe to the glory of the Creator and Redeemer."
**909 **"Moreover, by uniting their forces let the laity so remedy the institutions and conditions of the world when the latter are an inducement to sin, that these may be conformed to the norms of justice, favoring rather than hindering the practice of virtue. By so doing they will impregnate culture and human works with a moral value."

**2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. ** This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice."
However, if you and I were better…(more faithful…more holy…more sacrificial in our love) …at our mission of engaging the civic/civilian world and the public square (ideas and issues)…where we have our mission…and are charged to do the work of Christ and his Church…the bishops could could all be doing their “bishop-stuff”…and not have to worry about our congress and the political processes…or parties in this country. We Catholics in the pews need to do some things…what we are called to do as members of the Catholic Church in USA.

First…we must pray (more), fast (more…all forms) and do works of mercy (more…spiritual and corporal) for the Catholic Church in America and particularly for our own local church (diocese) bishop and also for the USCCB. Second, we need get into the civic arena and take the “fight for our faith and beliefs”…into the public square and the political processes…to be faithful to all that we have been taught by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ. It is not the bishops fault is we fail to follow what they have taught us…for years.

Lastly…your (proposed) solution to join one of the Orthodox Churches (Greek) is problematic at best and spiritually unfair to the the Pope and the Body of Christ…why leave the Church Christ founded…with Christ’s visible head on earth…Saint Peter (the Pope). We need you and are not complete without you…why leave? Stay and fight the fight with us!

Also…your conception of the Greek Orthodox (faith) Churches is not very accurate:"…So I am angry and upset - as a convert to our faith - would I not be better served in the Greek Orthodox faith? It seems to me that have not put themselves in this dirty political game."
In the vast majority of cases where the Orthodox Churches are located in the world…they are “State or National/Cultural/Ethnic” Churches…they are under the governments thumb (in some shape or form) and in many cases greatly muffled…and they have no operational/hierarchical unity among them. Here in the USA…they really are on the sidelines as Churches…I mean they don’t even join the USCCB in making public statements on the issues of abortion or homosexual marriage or euthanasia or embryonic stem cell research…etc.(except for a few rare exceptions)…you don’t hear much about them or their voices in the political processes and the moral fights that ensue from active engagement with civic/elected officials.

Here are two shows on CAR with Jim Likoudis…he is the expert…listen to him if you want an (former) insiders view.
Pax Christi
 
I understand their position - yet at the same time they were for socialized health care - I disagree with this on many levels…

Unfortunately how the bill is written will increase premiums in the market place until they are forced to lock those rates in - the bill itself is designed to fail and this why I am so upset with the position in which the Bishops have taken…

I am sorry but I cannot be angry at the dems on this one - they who they are and I simply against it on all levels…
I agree that the bill will only lead to higher costs and will inevitably fail. I pray that I’m wrong on that point.

I guess I still don’t understand why you are upset with the bishops when they opposed the bill. What else should they have done?

I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the bishop’s are for socialized health care. They believe all people should have access to basic health care, but that is not the same thing. Universal access to basic health care is a principle. Socialized health care is a policy. Socialized health care may (arguably) be one way the principle could be realized, but it’s not the only way and the bishops are very careful not to advocate a specific policy as the ideal.
 
The problems you cite in the Catholic Church USA may be very valid…I tend to agree with you on most of them and with your frustrations. But…you and I are not the bishop(s)…nor are we charged with their mission (we know this but lets not forget our roles).

Here is some pieces of the Catechism’s guidance to us…our mission
However, if you and I were better…(more faithful…more holy…more sacrificial in our love) …at our mission of engaging the civic/civilian world and the public square (ideas and issues)…where we have our mission…and are charged to do the work of Christ and his Church…the bishops could could all be doing their “bishop-stuff”…and not have to worry about our congress and the political processes…or parties in this country. We Catholics in the pews need to do some things…what we are called to do as members of the Catholic Church in USA.

First…we must pray (more), fast (more…all forms) and do works of mercy (more…spiritual and corporal) for the Catholic Church in America and particularly for our own local church (diocese) bishop and also for the USCCB. Second, we need get into the civic arena and take the “fight for our faith and beliefs”…into the public square and the political processes…to be faithful to all that we have been taught by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ. It is not the bishops fault is we fail to follow what they have taught us…for years.

Lastly…your (proposed) solution to join one of the Orthodox Churches (Greek) is problematic at best and spiritually unfair to the the Pope and the Body of Christ…why leave the Church Christ founded…with Christ’s visible head on earth…Saint Peter (the Pope). We need you and are not complete without you…why leave? Stay and fight the fight with us!

Also…your conception of the Greek Orthodox (faith) Churches is not very accurate:"…So I am angry and upset - as a convert to our faith - would I not be better served in the Greek Orthodox faith? It seems to me that have not put themselves in this dirty political game."
In the vast majority of cases where the Orthodox Churches are located in the world…they are “State or National/Cultural/Ethnic” Churches…they are under the governments thumb (in some shape or form) and in many cases greatly muffled…and they have no operational/hierarchical unity among them. Here in the USA…they really are on the sidelines as Churches…I mean they don’t even join the USCCB in making public statements on the issues of abortion or homosexual marriage or euthanasia or embryonic stem cell research…etc.(except for a few rare exceptions)…you don’t hear much about them or their voices in the political processes and the moral fights that ensue from active engagement with civic/elected officials.

Here are two shows on CAR with Jim Likoudis…he is the expert…listen to him if you want an (former) insiders view.

Pax Christi
Good information - thank you
 
.
I guess I still don’t understand why you are upset with the bishops when they opposed the bill. What else should they have done?
They were actually in full support as long as the abortion language was changed - a few things have happened locally here that have made me angry and upset - I believe through the actions of the Bishops they have aligned themselves politically with a party that I oppose on many levels and that is why I asked the what if question…
 
Not at all - I believe there are three vocations
  1. Vocation of marriage life
  2. Vocation of single life
  3. Vocation of religious life
Within our society each of these plays a significant role.

I also believe in the three pillars of society
  1. The pillar of individual/family
  2. The pillar of community/church
  3. The pillar of Government
When we do what we are supposed to do - things work out

I do not want the federal or state government and or local government in my life in which they are today and I do not want any form of socialism.

Its true that it is sad that some individuals are wiped out financially from anything - including health care cost - yet this is where the pillar of community/church should play their role - do their part. Too often I hear that health care cost in not affordable yet too many of live lifestyles in which we cannot afford and we should take a serious look at our vocation in life and do our part - in the case of raising a family perhaps we should make our own sacrifices to pay that health care cost.

I personally take offense to your comment above.

And I think you do not understand my question above
First of all you ask would YOU better be served by being in the Greek Orthodox Church. The idea of you belonging to a church is not you being served, but you worshiping God the propper way. You don’t go to Mass to get anything out of it whatsoever. If you do that is good and fine, but it is not the purpose. You are there to worship God, and what you get out of it is a side issue.
What I was refering to when I proposed my question about people loosing their homes was an article that i put in my thread titled " why Im for national health care" In the article a middle agd man with a decent job and health insurance had a brain anurysm and the copays and deductables made him loose his average home. That should not happen here in the USA! If you think this person should of just ate Ramen noodles, worn sackcloth, and lived in a handyman special in the middler of the ghetto , in order to keep money saved for a " rainy day" You are something I am not allowed to call you here in this forum. If everyone lived like that the econemy would collapse byond repair.
 
They were actually in full support as long as the abortion language was changed - a few things have happened locally here that have made me angry and upset - I believe through the actions of the Bishops they have aligned themselves politically with a party that I oppose on many levels and that is why I asked the what if question…
With all due respect, I think you are reading too much politics into the actions of the bishops. I did not get the sense that the bishops would have offered their unequivocal support of the bill had the few sections on abortion been changed.

None of the bishops I know are aligning themselves with a particular party. As neither political party matches the teaching of the Church, it can appear at times that the bishops are “taking sides”, but that’s only because they are trying to affirm the good that each party is doing. But they are certainly vocal when either party tries to promotes something contrary to Catholic teaching.
 
They were actually in full support as long as the abortion language was changed - a few things have happened locally here that have made me angry and upset - I believe through the actions of the Bishops they have aligned themselves politically with a party that I oppose on many levels and that is why I asked the what if question…
Economic Justice for All
Pastoral Letter on Catholic Social Teaching and the U.S. Economy
U. S. Catholic Bishops, 1986

A Pastoral Message
Brothers and Sisters in Christ:
140. Who are the unemployed? Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, young adults, female heads of households, and those who are inadequately educated are represented disproportionately among the ranks of the unemployed. The unemployment rate among minorities is almost twice as high as the rate among whites. For female heads of households the unemployment rate is over 10 percent. Among black teenagers, unemployment reaches the scandalous rate of more than one in three [8].
197. In recent years the minimum wage has not been adjusted to keep pace with inflation. Its real value has declined by 24 percent since 1981. We believe Congress should raise the minimum wage in order to restore some of the purchasing power it has lost due to inflation.

The minimum wage comes from the Socialist platform of 1928. Additionally, only government can cause inflation. This looks like the bishops are supporting socialism.
 
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