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1ke
Guest
The document quoted in the Catechism is Lumen Gentium from Vatican II. “The Catechism” is not distorting anything. The writers of the Catechism didn’t make up paragraph 841, the Bishops of the Church in Council wrote it. The Catechism is faithfully teaching what the Council taught.
U
USCatholic
Guest
Swiss Guard said:
You put too much words in my mouth.
It is unseless to answer you because you are not reading what I’m writing, you are just typing what you want me to believe I wrote.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Do us all a favor…
prove to the Holy See the difference between the god of Islam and the Judeo-Christian God…
then we can all benefit from your gifted wisdom - should you succeed.
Until then…if you really, really desire to have the catechism changed so you can have your Holy Catholic Church back, you’re wasting your time and ours.
The more you post here with your ‘call’ for change, the more you prove it is not your desire at all…you really only want to rile up believers or plant seeds of doubt into their minds.
Matthew 16:23 comes to mind here when Peter tried to tell Jesus He would never die (just as the serpent told Eve she would not die if she ate of the forbidden fruit), recognizing Satan working through Peter:
“But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Down, USCatholic, down with this dribble of which you speak!!!
S
Sherlock
Guest
USCatholic,
Based on this and other posts of yours, I have some advice: start your own church and be pope of it. That way you can be sure that it will always do whatever you, in your infinite popeness, decide it should do. You can always excommunicate dissenters and heretics.
You wrote: “The Holy See is made out of Humans, and Humans make mistakes…”
Except, apparently, you.
Based on this and other posts of yours, I have some advice: start your own church and be pope of it. That way you can be sure that it will always do whatever you, in your infinite popeness, decide it should do. You can always excommunicate dissenters and heretics.
You wrote: “The Holy See is made out of Humans, and Humans make mistakes…”
Except, apparently, you.
U
USCatholic
Guest
I wonder if their (Council) knowledge about Islam was as developped as it is during the writing of the Catechism.
Remember, science and research concerning comparative religions evolved since then.
But for the authors of the Catechism, to just copy and paste the paragraph about Islam without amending anything, or correcting it, is outageous to me.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
No thanks.
Go ahead and convert, though,
you’re doing no good to Catholics here.
S
Swiss_Guard
Guest
Now you’re saying you didn’t write this.You put too much words in my mouth.
It is unseless to answer you because you are not reading what I’m writing, you are just typing what you want me to believe I wrote.
Let me walk you through this so even someone of your limited intellect can understand.
1. The Catechism is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
2. The Catechism isn’t infallible even though it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
**Conclusion: THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT INFALLIBLE!
Unless someone else posted this quote using your name, you said the Holy Spirit isn’t infallible, which means the Holy Spirit can err.
This is what you actually said. The problem is you don’t think before you post. Like I said, use the brain God gave you before you post more blasphemy and GO TO CONFESSION!!!
Your ignorant comments have been exposed.
A
Aesq
Guest
To all of you directly attacking another member of this forum. I find that disgusting. It should get you barred from this forum. Argue with someone’s views, but there is no need to attack them individually. Take a deep breath. Defending the faith does not mean attacking the individual but the argument. What gives you the right to insult and attack?
As a note: Certain doctrines of the Church can obviously not be changed. However, there have been many changes in the Church over time. Do we not recall that all Masses used to be in Latin? Have we not heard of Vatican II? Calling for reform in the Church is not wrong. Stating that certain things the Church does are incorrect does not make one a heretic. (of course stating that some specific things are wrong DOES) It all depends on what we are talking about.
Even St. Thomas More acknowledged that there was likely need for reform within the Church, but reform within the Church not without. This was a man that vehemently argued against Luther and ultimately was martyred for his faith. As I said above, it all depends on what we are talking about. Some things can not be seen as in error.
As a note: Certain doctrines of the Church can obviously not be changed. However, there have been many changes in the Church over time. Do we not recall that all Masses used to be in Latin? Have we not heard of Vatican II? Calling for reform in the Church is not wrong. Stating that certain things the Church does are incorrect does not make one a heretic. (of course stating that some specific things are wrong DOES) It all depends on what we are talking about.
Even St. Thomas More acknowledged that there was likely need for reform within the Church, but reform within the Church not without. This was a man that vehemently argued against Luther and ultimately was martyred for his faith. As I said above, it all depends on what we are talking about. Some things can not be seen as in error.
U
USCatholic
Guest
I can see where this is going.
Writing anything else to you guys will be met with mockery, even with quoted proofs. I guess the discussion on his message boards for me is over.
Enjoy it!
S
Swiss_Guard
Guest
When someone speaks blasphemy against the Holy Spirit I will call him out on it. If you consider that an attack, so be it.
R
Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Swiss Guard said:
Amen.
A
Aesq
Guest
Swiss Guard said:
You need to think about that alot. I would suggest that you may really want to think about that. Pointing out someone’s error and attacking what they argue is one thing, insulting the person is another. Or are you claiming to be without sin so that you may throw the first stone?
C
contemplative
Guest
http://bestsmileys.com/angry2/11.gif
Why are you demanding an impossible action here at CA Forums?
You know that will not happen here. You won’t even plant a seed for such and action. So why shake your fist here like this? What is really bothering you?
F
Franze
Guest
US Catholic, like you know I have a hard opinion about islam, in my opinion is very similar to nazism or communism, is something like a communism with God.
I don´t know if islamic Allah is the same than Christian God, why? I think not because they don´t believe in the divinity of Christ, his resurrection, crucifixtion and all of these things, in Koran´s opinion, our faith is nothing. In addition they have a moral very similar to the mosaic law and they don´t have the forgiveness. Their comportaments with the women, beating, for example is allowed, non-muslims like hindus, or conversion or death, or the dhirmi statute is a garbage.
But, we know too, that jews don´t believe in Christ, they don´t believe in his divinity and his resurrection, in addition in the Talmud Book, there are a lot of mistakes and bad opinions about Jesus. But their God is our God, yes It is.
And the muslim God? Is the same? they don´t believe in the triniy like jews but their God is the God Father or Yaveh that woke up Abraham. And we don´t have to lose this.
I know that the Archangel Gabriel don´t appear to Muhammad, there are three posibilities, the first one, that was a product of his epilepsy. And he believed in visions.
The second one, total invention, catching up christian heretic teaching and from judaism.
The third one, a possibility very polemical, that a spirit appeared to Muhammad, but not Gabriel but “The father of lies”. Why? His hate to Christ, his heaven, plenty of lust, you will be like gods. In the islamic heaven there aren´t a strong expression of God. Only huries.
For this reason, I think that there are elements for believing what the catholic church says about islam. I think that more than changing the cathecism, is necessary three things, in the first place, defending with energy the freedom religion, in the second place, creating a good group of theologians and apologetics for beating islamic scholars and speaking in hard debates, we have to debate, not dialogue, because, we believe that we are right, the muslims think the same too. And the third one, being like a muslim, in apologetic our catholic religion, without fear, being coherent and with braveness.
Greetings
I don´t know if islamic Allah is the same than Christian God, why? I think not because they don´t believe in the divinity of Christ, his resurrection, crucifixtion and all of these things, in Koran´s opinion, our faith is nothing. In addition they have a moral very similar to the mosaic law and they don´t have the forgiveness. Their comportaments with the women, beating, for example is allowed, non-muslims like hindus, or conversion or death, or the dhirmi statute is a garbage.
But, we know too, that jews don´t believe in Christ, they don´t believe in his divinity and his resurrection, in addition in the Talmud Book, there are a lot of mistakes and bad opinions about Jesus. But their God is our God, yes It is.
And the muslim God? Is the same? they don´t believe in the triniy like jews but their God is the God Father or Yaveh that woke up Abraham. And we don´t have to lose this.
I know that the Archangel Gabriel don´t appear to Muhammad, there are three posibilities, the first one, that was a product of his epilepsy. And he believed in visions.
The second one, total invention, catching up christian heretic teaching and from judaism.
The third one, a possibility very polemical, that a spirit appeared to Muhammad, but not Gabriel but “The father of lies”. Why? His hate to Christ, his heaven, plenty of lust, you will be like gods. In the islamic heaven there aren´t a strong expression of God. Only huries.
For this reason, I think that there are elements for believing what the catholic church says about islam. I think that more than changing the cathecism, is necessary three things, in the first place, defending with energy the freedom religion, in the second place, creating a good group of theologians and apologetics for beating islamic scholars and speaking in hard debates, we have to debate, not dialogue, because, we believe that we are right, the muslims think the same too. And the third one, being like a muslim, in apologetic our catholic religion, without fear, being coherent and with braveness.
Greetings
B
barsapp
Guest
As it seems, you are of the opinion that Catholic and Muslims believe in the same God (although at your own thread was clearly showed that that is not possible).
Comparing suicide bombers with crusaders does not help the discussion. The crusaders spilled their own blood defending the true faith against the false god of Muslims. Are we capable of that too? We only talk here. While so many Catholics gave their lives as witnesses of the Christ.
J
JGC
Guest
This catechism will thus contain both the new and the old (cf. *Mt *13:52), because the faith is always the same yet the source of ever new light.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the result of very extensive collaboration; it was prepared over six years of intense work done in a spirit of complete openness and fervent zeal.
In 1986, I entrusted a commission of twelve Cardinals and Bishops, chaired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, with the task of preparing a draft of the catechism requested by the Synod Fathers. An editorial committee of seven diocesan Bishops, experts in theology and catechesis, assisted the commission in its work.
The commission, charged with giving directives and with overseeing the course of the work, attentively followed all the stages in editing the nine subsequent drafts. The editorial committee, for its part, assumed responsibility for writing the text, making the emendations requested by the commission and examining the observations of numerous theologians, exegetes and catechists, and above all, of the Bishops of the whole world, in order to produce a better text. In the committee various opinions were compared with great profit, and thus a richer text has resulted whose unity and coherence are assured.
The project was the object of extensive consultation among all Catholic Bishops, their Episcopal Conferences or Synods, and theological and catechetical institutes. As a whole, it received a broadly favorable acceptance on the part of the Episcopate. It can be said that this Catechism is the result of the collaboration of the whole Episcopate of the Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation to share responsibility for an enterprise which directly concerns the life of the Church. This response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the “symphony” of the faith. The achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to the Church’s catholicity.
A catechism should faithfully and systematically present the teaching of Sacred Scripture, the living Tradition in the Church and the authentic Magisterium, as well as the spiritual heritage of the Fathers, Doctors and saints of the Church, to allow for a better knowledge of the Christian mystery and for enlivening the faith of the People of God. It should take into account the doctrinal statements which down the centuries the Holy Spirit has intimated to his Church. It should also help to illumine with the light of faith the new situations and problems which had not yet emerged in the past.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.
scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the result of very extensive collaboration; it was prepared over six years of intense work done in a spirit of complete openness and fervent zeal.
In 1986, I entrusted a commission of twelve Cardinals and Bishops, chaired by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, with the task of preparing a draft of the catechism requested by the Synod Fathers. An editorial committee of seven diocesan Bishops, experts in theology and catechesis, assisted the commission in its work.
The commission, charged with giving directives and with overseeing the course of the work, attentively followed all the stages in editing the nine subsequent drafts. The editorial committee, for its part, assumed responsibility for writing the text, making the emendations requested by the commission and examining the observations of numerous theologians, exegetes and catechists, and above all, of the Bishops of the whole world, in order to produce a better text. In the committee various opinions were compared with great profit, and thus a richer text has resulted whose unity and coherence are assured.
The project was the object of extensive consultation among all Catholic Bishops, their Episcopal Conferences or Synods, and theological and catechetical institutes. As a whole, it received a broadly favorable acceptance on the part of the Episcopate. It can be said that this Catechism is the result of the collaboration of the whole Episcopate of the Catholic Church, who generously accepted my invitation to share responsibility for an enterprise which directly concerns the life of the Church. This response elicits in me a deep feeling of joy, because the harmony of so many voices truly expresses what could be called the “symphony” of the faith. The achievement of this Catechism thus reflects the collegial nature of the Episcopate; it testifies to the Church’s catholicity.
A catechism should faithfully and systematically present the teaching of Sacred Scripture, the living Tradition in the Church and the authentic Magisterium, as well as the spiritual heritage of the Fathers, Doctors and saints of the Church, to allow for a better knowledge of the Christian mystery and for enlivening the faith of the People of God. It should take into account the doctrinal statements which down the centuries the Holy Spirit has intimated to his Church. It should also help to illumine with the light of faith the new situations and problems which had not yet emerged in the past.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion.
scborromeo.org/ccc/aposcons.htm
M
Mom_of_one
Guest
Well, then I’ll say that the Catechism is wrong about allowing women to be priests. It should be in there.
(Nobody flame me. That was tounge-in-cheek)
(Nobody flame me. That was tounge-in-cheek)
J
JGC
Guest
Opening Speech to the
Vatican II Council
Code:
Pope John XXIII
October 11, 1962saint-mike.org/Library/Papal_Library/JohnXXIII/Opening_Speech_VaticanII.html
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Swiss Guard said:
I agree Swiss Guardhttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/1.gifHe started another thread that he and another poster did there best to cast shadows on the Catechismhttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/4.gifI seems like USCatholic is trying to start dog fights and succeedinghttp://bestsmileys.com/angry1/8.gifYou do not slam Holy Mother Church and her Official Teachings and expect no reactionhttp://bestsmileys.com/violent/4.gif
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