I am expected to teach artificial contraception to women

[fix]

I’m sorry. Did the nazi experiments involve patients who voluntarily sought out treatment?

So, consent is enough to make evil become good?

 

[buffalo]

I agree with Buffalo (which is rare ). If this is a real problem for you, talk to your instructor or higher if your instructor won’t bend.

Stick with me mikew262 and you will find yourself agreeing more and more. :clapping: :dancing: :bowdown:

 

[I_A]

I’m sorry. Did the nazi experiments involve patients who voluntarily sought out treatment?

ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/disabilities_02/

 

[fix]

Who grants this license? Does man have such authority?

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”[28]

 

[Texas_Roofer]

1733 The more ***one does ***what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to “the slavery of sin.”[28]

Exactly your actions are your actions their actions are their actions.

 

[fix]

My thanks to Setter for posting this in another thread:

…Catholic physicians and others who prescribe contraceptives or recommend their use are cooperators with those who use them. Such cooperation is gravely sinful. The same is true for physicians who advise contraceptive sterilization, or perform this procedure or refer a person to another physician for this purpose. In doing so they, too, commit grave sin.

It should be obvious that Catholics who practice birth control and those who cooperate with them in their immoral actions may not receive Holy Communion without committing sacrilege. Only the worthy reception of the Sacrament of Penance, which requires genuine sorrow for sin and the sincere intention to discontinue the sinful practice, will bring God’s forgiveness, restore grace to the soul and make one worthy to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion…

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/FLAVIN.HTM

So, does telling folks there exists a choice to use certain drugs to make the marital act contraceptive fall under the category of recommending them? I would think it would depend on how such information is presented.

 

[fix]

Exactly your actions are your actions their actions are their actions.

Two points.

1. Authentic freedom does not include choosing evil. As the CCC cite points out.
2. We can cooperate in other’s sinful acts. The degree of cooperation may make us morally culpable.

 

[setter]

Exactly your actions are your actions their actions are their actions.

However, if one’s action lead another into sin, then that is sinful in itself.

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense. (CCC)

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.” Therefore “it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble.” (CCC)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My thanks to Setter for posting this in another thread:
So, does telling folks there exists a choice to use certain drugs to make the marital act contraceptive fall under the category of recommending them? I would think it would depend on how such information is presented.

Unfortunately, I can not open the bishop’s writing on this computer but I do know of this writing from the church addressing that subject :

Page 14
To Doctors and Medical Personnel

*We hold those physicians and medical personnel in the highest esteem who, in the exercise of their profession, value above every human interest the superior demands of their Christian vocation. Let them persevere, therefore, in promoting on every occasion the discovery of solutions inspired by faith and right reason, let them strive to arouse this conviction and this respect in their associates. Let them also consider as their proper professional duty the task of acquiring all the knowledge needed in this delicate sector, so as to be able to give to those married persons who consult them ***wise counsel **and healthy direction, such as they have a right to expect. - PP VI in Humanae Vitae

Two points.

1. Authentic freedom does not include choosing evil. As the CCC cite points out.
2. We can cooperate in other’s sinful acts. The degree of cooperation may make us morally culpable.

Yes that is correct, as we have posted you should stop driving it is possible you will wreck, drink, kill, etc… similarly UPS drivers, postal workers, truck drivers all should quit because others send birth control pills, porn, etc through the transportation system:nope: . Actually you are culpable if you participate as trick, instruct, coerce others to commit sin. My advice is to follow the statement above from the old dead man who wore the funny hat

However, if one’s action lead another into sin, then that is sinful in itself.

2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense. (CCC)

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.” Therefore “it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble.” (CCC)

Back to the UPS drivers again? This is the same as above in which “lead” involves the participation. Scandal also involves participation how can you scandal if you are not involved? Teaching is not scandalous’. Knowledge in itself is morally neutral; drugs any and all, are in and of them selves morally neutral. The use of a drug, car, UPS Truck, transportation system can be used to participate in sin. To sin you have to have will, intent, and some form of consummation. If the teacher (or Doctor) does not have the will or intent as the Pope referred to as promoting a faith based solution(paraphrased) then sin is not present

 

[fix]

Unfortunately, I can not open the bishop’s writing on this computer but I do know of this writing from the church addressing that subject :

Page 14
To Doctors and Medical Personnel

*We hold those physicians and medical personnel in the highest esteem who, in the exercise of their profession, value above every human interest the superior demands of their Christian vocation. Let them persevere, therefore, in promoting on every occasion the discovery of solutions inspired by faith and right reason, let them strive to arouse this conviction and this respect in their associates. Let them also consider as their proper professional duty the task of acquiring all the knowledge needed in this delicate sector, so as to be able to give to those married persons who consult them ***wise counsel ****and healthy direction, such as they have a right to expect. - PP VI in Humanae Vitae

And wise consel does not include recommending others commit sin. It does not include recommending devices for use in intrinsically wrong acts.

Yes that is correct, as we have posted you should stop driving it is possible you will wreck, drink, kill, etc… similarly UPS drivers, postal workers, truck drivers all should quit because others send birth control pills, porn, etc through the transportation system:nope: . Actually you are culpable if you participate as trick, instruct, coerce others to commit sin. My advice is to follow the statement above from the old dead man who wore the funny hat

Not applicable to this discussion. Cooperation with evil may be formal or material. UPS drivers who deliver packages have no way of knowing what is in them or how they may be used. That is a significant moral difference from one who is recommending the use of a drug to sterilze oneself.

As for deaths that result from traffic accidents that too does not apply as morally good, and neutral, acts may have unintended evil effects.

Back to the UPS drivers again? This is the same as above in which “lead” involves the participation. Scandal also involves participation how can you scandal if you are not involved? Teaching is not scandalous’. Knowledge in itself is morally neutral; drugs any and all, are in and of them selves morally neutral. The use of a drug, car, UPS Truck, transportation system can be used to participate in sin. To sin you have to have will, intent, and some form of consummation. If the teacher (or Doctor) does not have the will or intent as the Pope referred to as promoting a faith based solution(paraphrased) then sin is not present

Teaching another that certain drugs would be useful to contracept is certainly not approved by any Pope. You are mixing in all types of things that do not belong.

 

[setter]

Unfortunately, I can not open the bishop’s writing on this computer but I do know of this writing from the church addressing that subject :

Page 14
To Doctors and Medical Personnel

*We hold those physicians and medical personnel in the highest esteem who, in the exercise of their profession, value above every human interest the superior demands of their Christian vocation. Let them persevere, therefore, in promoting on every occasion the discovery of solutions inspired by faith and right reason, let them strive to arouse this conviction and this respect in their associates. Let them also consider as their proper professional duty the task of acquiring all the knowledge needed in this delicate sector, so as to be able to give to those married persons who consult them ***wise counsel ****and healthy direction, such as they have a right to expect. - PP VI in Humanae Vitae

I find this translation more precise in language:

1. Likewise we hold in the highest esteem those doctors and members of the nursing profession who, in the exercise of their calling, endeavor to fulfill the demands of their Christian vocation before any merely human interest. Let them therefore continue constant in their resolution always to support those lines of action which accord with faith and with right reason. And let them strive to win agreement and support for these policies among their professional colleagues. Moreover, they should regard it as an essential part of their skill to make themselves fully proficient in this difficult field of medical knowledge. For then, when married couples ask for their advice, they may be in a position to give them right counsel and to point them in the proper direction. Married couples have a right to expect this much from them. (POPE PAUL Vl Humanae Vitae)

 

[Valke2]

So, consent is enough to make evil become good?

voluntarily asking and receiving mediacl advice goes a long way toward that, yes.

 

[fix]

voluntarily asking and receiving mediacl advice goes a long way toward that, yes.

If the advice does not contractdict the moral law. No matter what area of life we are speaking of a good end never justifies an evil means.

Medical advice is not exempt from the moral law.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Should we hire the Da Vinci Code people to interpret the Pope for us or just do as the Pope says and give counsel

Well it looks as though I’ll get to save some money

 

[fix]

Should we hire the Da Vinci Code people to interpret the Pope for us or just do as the Pope says and give counsel

Well it looks as though I’ll get to save some money

Do you think any reading of HV can be shown to allow contraception for any reason?

 

[setter]

Should we hire the Da Vinci Code people to interpret the Pope for us or just do as the Pope says and give counsel

Well it looks as though I’ll get to save some money

You would think that the wayward winds of the “spirit” of Vatican II would have taught Catholics religious and laity alike a lesson in prudent application of official Church documents. Precise language is important for proper application lest misuse and abuse arise.

When I go to a medical professional for counsel in accord with my Catholic conscience, I prefer for the sake of my soul to receive “right counsel and to point them in the proper direction” over “wise counsel and healthy direction”. The latter sounds too subjective and more strictly organic in scope.

Btw – Do you have a link to your quotation version of HV? Here is my source link from the Vatican web site: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

 

[jbuck919]

Moral relativism. Anything that can be done, ought to be done? That pretty much eliminates critical reasoning and the notion of conscience. What is that termed?

On the contrary, I offered an entirely black-or-white solution. If modern nursing training is causing her to compromise her beliefs about artificial contraception, she must give up one thing or the other. She must give up her career of choice for a moral principle, just as you and I have repeatedly made sacrifices at such a level to avoid moral compromise. Any other advice would be false charity.

(I don’t mean a word I just said, but that is exaclty where someone like fix is going even if he does not know it.)

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Do you think any reading of HV can be shown to allow contraception for any reason?

Well in sect 24 he does talk about preventing conception…:ehh: . what is another word for preventing conception … then you have the “to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.” is that a definition of conception?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

You would think that the wayward winds of the “spirit” of Vatican II would have taught Catholics religious and laity alike a lesson in prudent application of official Church documents. Precise language is important for proper application lest misuse and abuse arise.

When I go to a medical professional for counsel in accord with my Catholic conscience, I prefer for the sake of my soul to receive “right counsel and to point them in the proper direction” over “wise counsel and healthy direction”. The latter sounds too subjective and more strictly organic in scope.

If I asked the doctor to restrict the medical treatment to his understanding of Catholism fine. Usually I ask for only medical advise.

Btw – Do you have a link to your quotation version of HV? Here is my source link from the Vatican web site: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Not exactly I tried to pull the same site you ref but the work system blocks any unlocked site with words as sex, love, conjugal, etc the file version I pulled does list

Formatted in MS Word by the Augustine Club at Columbia University from the HTML posted
by Priests for Life, July 10, 2000.
www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine
augustine@columbia.edu

 

[setter]

If I asked the doctor to restrict the medical treatment to his understanding of Catholism fine. Usually I ask for only medical advise.

It is those notorious and ostensibly ‘Catholic’ OBGYN and other medical doctors that the serious Catholic patient needs to be wary of when medical recommendations/options overlay with moral considerations.

Not exactly I tried to pull the same site you ref but the work system blocks any unlocked site with words as sex, love, conjugal, etc the file version I pulled does list

Formatted in MS Word by the Augustine Club at Columbia University from the HTML posted
by Priests for Life, July 10, 2000.
www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine
augustine@columbia.edu

Thanks anyways.