I am expected to teach artificial contraception to women

[Valke2]

If the advice does not contractdict the moral law. No matter what area of life we are speaking of a good end never justifies an evil means.

Medical advice is not exempt from the moral law.

And I live in a country where the moral and legal law does not frown upon birth control. And I don’t need a theological lecture from my nurse or doctor. If I have a question about birth control, I expect an answer to my question. Not a sermon.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Don’t babies come from the heart of God?

 

[heavensdemon]

I would advise you to do your job and try to help the world. Not everyone is catholic, and most people use their minds to think for themselves. Despite the idea that God has given us a “natural morality,” even good, God believing christians who deeply pray for discernment continue to come down on opposing sides of all the major moral issues of the day.

It would be a form of religious discrimination to withhold helpful information because of your religion. To the rest of the world, the immorality of artificial contraception seems like an artificial morality itself. Most people don’t see anything evil about using condoms or birth control pills, and in all seriousness, they are quite effective. Please don’t spread any kind of misinformation or other things like that, as ‘well-guided’ as you think you might be.

That would be nearly as disgusting as efforts to prevent condom use in africa.

 

[setter]

And I live in a country where the moral and legal law does not frown upon birth control. And I don’t need a theological lecture from my nurse or doctor. If I have a question about birth control, I expect an answer to my question. Not a sermon.

Are you suggesting that folks who have an active Catholic conscience, i.e., well informed and formed conscience, need not apply in the medical health profession?

 

[setter]

I would advise you to do your job and try to help the world. Not everyone is catholic, and most people use their minds to think for themselves. Despite the idea that God has given us a “natural morality,” even good, God believing christians who deeply pray for discernment continue to come down on opposing sides of all the major moral issues of the day.

Can you please explain how any Catholic worth their sand who is actively complicit with promoting and promulgating an intrinsic evil and in actuality trying to “help the world”?

It would be a form of religious discrimination to withhold helpful information because of your religion. To the rest of the world, the immorality of artificial contraception seems like an artificial morality itself. Most people don’t see anything evil about using condoms or birth control pills, and in all seriousness, they are quite effective. Please don’t spread any kind of misinformation or other things like that, as ‘well-guided’ as you think you might be.

Catholics are called to be discerning and discriminate in their thoughts, words and deeds. Concensus has never been the basis for God’s truth and morality.

That would be nearly as disgusting as efforts to prevent condom use in africa.

Is not the welfare of one’s eternal soul more important than the body in your Catholic worldview?

 

[Ma.Eugenia]

Hi everyone!

Thanks for your replies.

Health teachings on contraception is only **part **of what is taught in Nursing school. There are other branches within the profession. Example: Pediatric Nursing, Medical-Surgical, etc… However, we all have to pass through all these subjects in order to graduate with a B.S. Nursing degree.

At the moment, this is the subject I am taking-- health teachings on contraception is part of it.

I do not think my unwillingness to participate in lecturing a patient on a subject that goes against deep personal convictions and beliefs will make me a bad nurse in the future.

While my decison to shift course has an economic aspect to it, I do not want to be a nurse that would do anything for the money. I want to do good, and be good at my work according to how I understand the teachings of my Church.

When it comes to ethical dilemmas, there are many in the medical field. I have encountered quite a few.

What do I do if after explaining the pros and cons of both artificial contraception and NFP, but still, the patient chooses artificial?

What if I am asked to demonstrate, for example, how to place a condom?

Should I do the demonstration for the patient even with my heart “bleeding” and my conscience “crying” ?–just for the grade?

What if I encounter a woman who wants to take contraceptive pills—should I encourage her or discourage her?

Is it right for me to refer to a person who have no qualms to do the demonstration, knowing that what will be taught goes against Catholic teachings because it may cause some harm either to the mother or the unborn?

These are the questions that I am having difficulty with.

Thank you for your help.

 

[fix]

On the contrary, I offered an entirely black-or-white solution. If modern nursing training is causing her to compromise her beliefs about artificial contraception, she must give up one thing or the other. She must give up her career of choice for a moral principle, just as you and I have repeatedly made sacrifices at such a level to avoid moral compromise. Any other advice would be false charity.

(I don’t mean a word I just said, but that is exaclty where someone like fix is going even if he does not know it.)

Illogical. The profession is not immoral. As in every single area of life we are called to use moral reasoning. That does not mean we retreat from the world.

 

[Sam88]

So, does telling folks there exists a choice to use certain drugs to make the marital act contraceptive fall under the category of recommending them? I would think it would depend on how such information is presented.

I agree. Providing factual information is quite different from prescribing or reccomending - provided of course that such information is not biased. For this reason, it is sometimes necessary for a care provider to mention alternatives that are in fact immoral, in order to educate a patient regarding their true nature and effects. In a few situations, a provider might even discuss the effects of things that are actually illegal, as when providing information on the effects of illegal drugs, prohibited treatments, things not yet permitted in this country but practiced elsewhere, etc.

As a separate issue, if a patient specifically requests a heathcare service that the provider cannot or will not perform for ethical, legal, or other reasons, it is generally expected that they will suggest to them if practical what provider might be able to assist them. This is particularly true in a large healthcare organization such as a hospital. If for example a nurse cannot participate in a particular morally questionable procedure, he or she is normally expected to inform a supervisor of that fact so that the supervisor can determine what other actions to take, which might include assigning a different staff member, providing the patient the names of other providers, or explaining to the patient why a requested service cannot be provided.

I understand that this practice may seem problematic, but it is a natural consequence of the principle that healthcare decisions belong to the patient, not the provider. While a provider must not participate in immoral treatments, nor of course can they recommend them, providers cannot simply substitute their own judgement for the choice of the patient. The patient deserves to make thier choices based on knowledge of the truth, and also has the right to seek a different care provider.

 

[fix]

And I live in a country where the moral and legal law does not frown upon birth control. And I don’t need a theological lecture from my nurse or doctor. If I have a question about birth control, I expect an answer to my question. Not a sermon.

The nurse doe not have to give a sermon and she does not have to recommend immoral therpay simply because the law allows it. We are humans, not robots.

 

[fix]

Well in sect 24 he does talk about preventing conception…:ehh: . what is another word for preventing conception … then you have the “to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.” is that a definition of conception?

The encyclical is quite clear. Contraception is wrong. It says intrinsically wrong. That would mean it may never be done.

 

[fix]

I agree. Providing factual information is quite different from prescribing or reccomending - provided of course that such information is not biased. For this reason, it is sometimes necessary for a care provider to mention alternatives that are in fact immoral, in order to educate a patient regarding their true nature and effects. In a few situations, a provider might even discuss the effects of things that are actually illegal, as when providing information on the effects of illegal drugs, prohibited treatments, things not yet permitted in this country but practiced elsewhere, etc.

As a separate issue, if a patient specifically requests a heathcare service that the provider cannot or will not perform for ethical, legal, or other reasons, it is generally expected that they will suggest to them if practical what provider might be able to assist them. This is particularly true in a large healthcare organization such as a hospital. If for example a nurse cannot participate in a particular morally questionable procedure, he or she is normally expected to inform a supervisor of that fact so that the supervisor can determine what other actions to take, which might include assigning a different staff member, providing the patient the names of other providers, or explaining to the patient why a requested service cannot be provided.

I understand that this practice may seem problematic, but it is a natural consequence of the principle that healthcare decisions belong to the patient, not the provider. While a provider must not participate in immoral treatments, nor of course can they recommend them, providers cannot simply substitute their own judgement for the choice of the patient. The patient deserves to make thier choices based on knowledge of the truth, and also has the right to seek a different care provider.

I agree there is nothing wrong with telling a patient they must seek care elsewhere. In a hospital setting, as an example, the provider may tell their superior as you mention.

My point was in regard to formal participation in evil. If a patient desires direct abortion and the provider refuses the provider is not under any moral obligation to refer to an abortion provider simply because the patient desires it.

It is true the patient has the final responsibility, but that does not lead me to think the provider has any obligation to directly participate in an immoral act.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Well in sect 24 he does talk about preventing conception…:ehh: . what is another word for preventing conception … then you have the “to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.” is that a definition of conception?

The encyclical is quite clear. Contraception is wrong. It says intrinsically wrong. That would mean it may never be done.

As for me I believe to Pope did not error, he stopped short of the position proposed by many on these threads. I think the Pope used wisdom. That includes page 14 which deals with the issue on this thread.

 

[fix]

As for me I believe to Pope did not error, he stopped short of the position proposed by many on these threads. I think the Pope used wisdom. That includes page 14 which deals with the issue on this thread.

This is from the Vatican website:

To Doctors and Nurses
27. Likewise we hold in the highest esteem those doctors and members of the nursing profession who, in the exercise of their calling, endeavor to fulfill the demands of their Christian vocation before any merely human interest. Let them therefore continue constant in their resolution always to support those lines of action which accord with faith and with right reason. And let them strive to win agreement and support for these policies among their professional colleagues. Moreover, they should regard it as an essential part of their skill to make themselves fully proficient in this difficult field of medical knowledge. For then, when married couples ask for their advice, they may be in a position to give them right counsel and to point them in the proper direction. Married couples have a right to expect this much from them.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Are you seriously claiming the Pope intended to allow a physician to advise parents to contracept?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

This is from the Vatican website:

Are you seriously claiming the Pope intended to allow a physician to advise parents to contracept?

Well in sect 24 he does talk about preventing conception…:ehh: . what is another word for preventing conception … then you have the “to avoid for the time being, or even for an indeterminate period, a new birth.” is that a definition of conception?

Actually, I find no need to install words in the Pope’s writtings. Regardless of the two translations posted I do not see any misunderstanding of the Popes writting. What I see is a desire by some to calm more than is written.

 

[Valke2]

Don’t babies come from the heart of God?

I’ll ask my doctor.

 

[rpp]

Don’t babies come from the heart of God?

I’ll ask my doctor.

A priest, or even a good rabbi, would give you a better answer. priestsforlife.org/

 

[Valke2]

Are you suggesting that folks who have an active Catholic conscience, i.e., well informed and formed conscience, need not apply in the medical health profession?

If they can administer medicine or nurse or whatever without making moral judgments (out loud) on their patients decisions, then by all means, get that MD

 

[Valke2]

The nurse doe not have to give a sermon and she does not have to recommend immoral therpay simply because the law allows it. We are humans, not robots.

I see. ANd should a devout catholic postman refuse to deliver my Victoria Secret cataloug or my Big & Busty DVD?

Should a devout catholic bus driver refuse to stop at bus stop that is in front of a planned parenthood building?

Should a devout catholic chef refuse to serve desert to an obese patron who has eaten two meals and consumed a loaf of bread (i.e., a glutton?)

 

[rpp]

I see. ANd should a devout catholic postman refuse to deliver my Victoria Secret cataloug or my Big & Bust DVD?

Should a devout catholic bus driver refuse to stop at bus stop that is in front of a planned parenthood building?

Should a devout catholic chef refuse to serve desert to an obese patron who has eaten two meals and consumed a loaf of bread (i.e., a glutton?)

These are very interesting questions and deserve some serious thought. Really! In fact, they actually deserve their own thread. Please start another one. This would be a good forum, but consider posting it on one of the Apologists forums.

How faithful and serious Catholics are to make these types of moral decisions is a very serious matter. Each situation is different, but one person cannot contribute to the evil of another.

I would say that while a nurse during study may be required to learn about contraception and even be required to make a presentation, that does not necessarily constitute support or promotion. Morality does not consis in living in a cave.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If they can administer medicine or nurse or whatever without making moral judgments (out loud) on their patients decisions, then by all means, get that MD

Guys
I do not wish to be argumentative but if a doctor advised me to lie on an insurance claim, misrepresent a condition, be involved in an abortion, euthanize grandpa, etc… That would not constitute sin on me. It is only when I act on that suggestion that I bring sin on to myself. When the doctor “recommends” an immoral action the doctor does sin this is rare. When the doctor “advises of the options” the doctor only states truth and is not in sin.