I am expected to teach artificial contraception to women

[Flo77]

Example: The use of condoms. We were told in the orientation that we can demonstrate to a patient how it is placed (using a prop). My problem here is—Isn’t that pushing men to commit the sin of Onan? If I was the one who taught a person to use it, wouldn’t his sin be my sin too? More so with me–because I know about this passage in the Bible.

I don’t know what you’ve been taught how to use a condom - but let me tell you as user: to slip it over has nothing to do with masturbation.

Btw: the sin of Onan was denying his brothers’ widow a son who should carry their name. What he did was coitus interruptus, not masturbation.

But what would you say is the worse sin: to use a condom or to make your partner ill, to risk a child you cannot support, and so on?

My teachers, priests and catechist always told us that sins against our and our partners’ life are worse than sins against Humana Vitae (The use of condoms we were taught during so called “Aids-Days” an informative meeting organized by our school especially by our teachers of religion).

Example: The use of pills. A professor told us that some of the pills makes the uterus inhospitable to a fertilized ovum. That is the same as abortion as Catholics believe that life begins at the time of conception.

Some pills can cause problems for the next generation (children of the woman who takes it), some pills can cause problems with the unborn.

Well. As far as I know there are two basic forms of the pill:
First type avoids the ovulation (=> no fertilized ovum possible)
Second type avoids the nidation (=> kind of early abortion).

Yes - I know about the consequences on the female body (and I also know about girls who took the pill to adjust their hormonal balance). But I can imagine cases in which a hormonal contraception would be the appropriate.

I feel that if anything happens to anyone—because I pushed for these artificial methods, I will be guilty of the sin also.

That is why it is such a dilemma for me to teach it.

Just my 2 cents: I think as nurse you have to know the methods and also you have to be able to teach them.
There always can come situations in which NFP is not the best choice or even the wrong choice, so you have to be able to give other advice.

Second Cent: If you don’t talk about a possible method and so your advice leads to illness, abortion, foundlings, etc. I think this sin is harder.

Yes: artificial contraception is against the commandments of the church.
But in real life you have always to balance between the letters of the church’s teachings and best for the person who need’s your help. Unfortunately they are not always identic.

A user in a German forum told the following story from a priest in latin america.
This priest told: ‘When I listened to confession young girls told me they had an abortion. They were absolved, but some month later they came again to confession and told about a second abortion. I asked them why they didn’t use condoms or the pill.
The girls answered: But Father, if I had an abortion I can come and confess and go to communion next sunday. If I use the pill I’m in the state of sin all the time.
It is a lot of work to explain these girls that an abortion is much worse than using artificial contraceptiva.’

 

[fix]

I don’t know what you’ve been taught how to use a condom - but let me tell you as user: to slip it over has nothing to do with masturbation.

Btw: the sin of Onan was denying his brothers’ widow a son who should carry their name. What he did was coitus interruptus, not masturbation.

Rendering the act intentionally sterile, no matter the means, is to make the act one of mutual masturbation. One would have closed the procreative aspect of the embrace.

But what would you say is the worse sin: to use a condom or to make your partner ill, to risk a child you cannot support, and so on?

That is a false choice. There is no choice, ever, to do evil. One may abstain if needed. No one dies from abstaining.

My teachers, priests and catechist always told us that sins against our and our partners’ life are worse than sins against Humana Vitae (The use of condoms we were taught during so called “Aids-Days” an informative meeting organized by our school especially by our teachers of religion).

They are all misinformed then. Intrinsically evil acts may never be done. Why set up a false choice?

Yes: artificial contraception is against the commandments of the church.

It is against the will of Christ.

But in real life you have always to balance between the letters of the church’s teachings and best for the person who need’s your help. Unfortunately they are not always identic.

This is moral relativism. The teachings of Christ, through His Church, are not a pie in the sky ideal to look at from a distance. They are to be lived out. They makes us free. They lead to happiness.

This priest told: ‘When I listened to confession young girls told me they had an abortion. They were absolved, but some month later they came again to confession and told about a second abortion. I asked them why they didn’t use condoms or the pill.
The girls answered: But Father, if I had an abortion I can come and confess and go to communion next sunday. If I use the pill I’m in the state of sin all the time.
It is a lot of work to explain these girls that an abortion is much worse than using artificial contraceptiva.’

This entire picture is wrong on many levels. It denies grace, truth, and the dignity of those girls. What a shame.

 

[setter]

Setter you may have the best intention, I am sure you do. But this post only floats on the river of De’nile, even the Pope acknowledge the hair splitting, general speaking, and placed the “grave consequences” restriction on such use

*The Church, Guarantor of True Human Values
[sect]18. It can be foreseen that this teaching will perhaps not be easily received by all: Too numerous are those voices-amplified by the modern means of propaganda-which are contrary to the voice of the Church. To tell the truth, the Church is not surprised to be made, like her divine founder, a “sign of contradiction,” *(22) yet she does not because of this cease to proclaim with humble firmness the entire moral law, both natural and evangelical. -Humanae Vitae, PPXII ( and yes it is the same file copy)

In all due respect, I cannot make any sense out of your above post. Your excerpt citation from HV only supports my assertion of the Church’s consistent position despite the prevailing winds of cultural/political opposition. I see nothing that supports the wayward point that you have been trying to assert.

 

[fix]

Texas Roofer:

The problem is our consciences are [less accurate than] below the truth, not above it. Meaning truth is superior to our conscience. We do not get to invent right and wrong. The act of contraception is always evil. The use of cleaning products are not always evil. We know this because we inform our consciences by assenting to the truth as taught to us by our Lord through His Church which is the final authority in these matters.

“In any event, it is always from the truth that the dignity of conscience derives. In the case of the correct conscience, it is a question of the objective truth received by man; in the case of the erroneous conscience, it is a question of what man, mistakenly, subjectively considers to be true. It is never acceptable to confuse a ‘subjective’ error about moral good with the ‘objective’ truth rationally proposed to man in virtue of his end, or to make the moral value of an act performed with a true and correct conscience equivalent to the moral value of an act performed by following the judgment of an erroneous conscience” (“Veritatis Splendor,” 63).

 

[Flo77]

Rendering the act intentionally sterile, no matter the means, is to make the act one of mutual masturbation. One would have closed the procreative aspect of the embrace

Tell me where is the difference between a couple which has two, three or four kids and uses pill or condoms in the meantime and a couple which uses NFP so successful that they have no children their whole life?

Who do you think is really open for the lords gift of children?

That is a false choice. There is no choice, ever, to do evil. One may abstain if needed. No one dies from abstaining.

No one dies from abstaining. That’s correct (even I don’t think subliming sexuality is healthy, but this is another topic).

They are all misinformed then. Intrinsically evil acts may never be done. Why set up a false choice?

They MAY never be done. Right.

But it happens every day, every hour, every minute, every second, everywhere on earth.

So give me an answer: should a teacher, priest, catechist ignore that men not always act in the morally best way?

Or is their job to avoid worse?

To try to minimize evil means not to accept or to honor it.

It is against the will of Christ.

Where does the bible tell about contraceptiva?

This interpretation of the 6th commandment has been done by the church. You won’t find any word of Christ to this question.

This is moral relativism. The teachings of Christ, through His Church, are not a pie in the sky ideal to look at from a distance. They are to be lived out. They makes us free. They lead to happiness.

Do you think the teaching of the church is the ideal way for all men?

I’m sorry it isn’t. Every priest/teacher/catechist is faced with situations in which sticking to the letters of the catechism and the church’s documents would cause more damage than beeing practical.

This entire picture is wrong on many levels. It denies grace, truth, and the dignity of those girls. What a shame.

So what should the priest do?
Ignoring that these girls have sex? Ignoring that they will have abortions and abortions as an accepted method of contraception?

We all know that beeing abstinent would be better. But men aren’t angels.

 

[setter]

They MAY never be done. Right.

But it happens every day, every hour, every minute, every second, everywhere on earth.

So give me an answer: should a teacher, priest, catechist ignore that men not always act in the morally best way?

Or is their job to avoid worse?

To try to minimize evil means not to accept or to honor it.

Do you think the teaching of the church is the ideal way for all men?

I’m sorry it isn’t. Every priest/teacher/catechist is faced with situations in which sticking to the letters of the catechism and the church’s documents would cause more damage than beeing practical.

We all know that beeing abstinent would be better. But men aren’t angels.

The voice of compromise and rationalization for sin and depending on one’s own resource and capabilities for living faith to God. Scripture warns about the fate those who are lukewarm in their faith.

“So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.” **Revelation 3: 16 **

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” Mark 10: 27

 

[st_ignatius110]

and uses pill

One huge difference is that NFP does not cause abortions!

 

[Flo77]

One huge difference is that NFP does not cause abortions!

Not at all.

There are pills which avoid ovulation and there are pills which avoid nidation.

A ovolum which has never been fertilized cannot be aborted.

 

[fix]

Tell me where is the difference between a couple which has two, three or four kids and uses pill or condoms in the meantime and a couple which uses NFP so successful that they have no children their whole life?

Who do you think is really open for the lords gift of children?

There may be just reasons to space, or avoid births. The moral issue is how are these achieved.

But it happens every day, every hour, every minute, every second, everywhere on earth.

So what. So do all types of sins. Should a man cheat on his wife because it happens often?

So give me an answer: should a teacher, priest, catechist ignore that men not always act in the morally best way?

Of course not. Nor should they encourage sin because one thinks the ends justify the means.

Or is their job to avoid worse?

To try to minimize evil means not to accept or to honor it.

Their job is to do good, avoid evil, and not lead another to hell. If a 13 year old wanted to try crack would you suggest finding the purest form of the drug or tell them it is never right and explain why it is never right?

Where does the bible tell about contraceptiva?

Jesus upheld all of the traditional moral law. Where does it say he dispensed us from any of it? Also, Christ founded a Church He left to guide us to salvation. He speaks to us through His vicar.

This interpretation of the 6th commandment has been done by the church. You won’t find any word of Christ to this question.

The Church and Christ cannot be separated.

Do you think the teaching of the church is the ideal way for all men?

Yes, it is the means of salavtion.

I’m sorry it isn’t. Every priest/teacher/catechist is faced with situations in which sticking to the letters of the catechism and the church’s documents would cause more damage than beeing practical.

This would make Jesus a liar.

So what should the priest do?
Ignoring that these girls have sex? Ignoring that they will have abortions and abortions as an accepted method of contraception?

We all know that beeing abstinent would be better. But men aren’t angels.

You set up false choices. There is no choice to sin one way or another. The choice is to follow God or reject Him. Sin is never the answer. Why do you think so little of people?

 

[Flo77]

The voice of compromise and rationalization for sin and depending on one’s own resource and capabilities for living faith to God. Scripture warns about the fate those who are lukewarm in their faith.

“So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.” **Revelation 3: 16 **

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” Mark 10: 27

This is no answer.

I know about the scripture and the high ideals Christ gave us and the church teaches us.

But we are not talking about ideal people, we are talking about sinners. Sinners who need practical help to find the way to salvation step by step.

If you want to climb a stair you also don’t just take a jump to reach the top.

Life is tricky. Like a stair between heaven and hell.

But it is not massive. Some steps are fragile, others will transform to a slide if you take it wrong.

So you need any advice you can get to reach the top. There is the teaching of the lord and the church as a handrail to come upstairs the save way - but men are like little children who just learn to walk stairs.

Most men don’t reach the top the handrail - they just clamp to the shoots which connect rail and stair.

They guess what the handrail is, but the could not reach it completely so they try to do their very best.

Sometimes they try to walk the stairs alone - and fail, sometimes they search for guidance and find the rails shoots again.

I think it would be sinful to cut of the shoots and expect everyone to reach the handrail or to risk he will struggle and slide down to hell.

As Bishop Burke says: our aim is it to go to heaven. And we have to take as many with us as possible.

 

[fix]

This is no answer.

I know about the scripture and the high ideals Christ gave us and the church teaches us.

But we are not talking about ideal people, we are talking about sinners. Sinners who need practical help to find the way to salvation step by step.

If you want to climb a stair you also don’t just take a jump to reach the top.

Life is tricky. Like a stair between heaven and hell.

But it is not massive. Some steps are fragile, others will transform to a slide if you take it wrong.

So you need any advice you can get to reach the top. There is the teaching of the lord and the church as a handrail to come upstairs the save way - but men are like little children who just learn to walk stairs.

Most men don’t reach the top the handrail - they just clamp to the shoots which connect rail and stair.

They guess what the handrail is, but the could not reach it completely so they try to do their very best.

Sometimes they try to walk the stairs alone - and fail, sometimes they search for guidance and find the rails shoots again.

I think it would be sinful to cut of the shoots and expect everyone to reach the handrail or to risk he will struggle and slide down to hell.

As Bishop Burke says: our aim is it to go to heaven. And we have to take as many with us as possible.

Pastoral guidance is important, but where can I find justifying evil acts is morally good? Does being pastoral mean allowing one to remain in ignorance? Does being pastoral mean we pretend the moral law is just an ideal, and in practice we ignore His will?

 

[st_ignatius110]

Not at all.

There are pills which avoid ovulation and there are pills which avoid nidation.

A ovolum which has never been fertilized cannot be aborted.

All pills are made to avoid ovulation but all major companies who produce the birth control pills put a disclaimer along with the pills that in case ovulation does happen then the pill can indeed act as an abortifacient.

 

[Flo77]

There may be just reasons to space, or avoid births. The moral issue is how are these achieved.

It’s not so easy as you think.

Why acts a wealthy couple for which it would no problem to raise children but avoiding it completely successful with NFP according to the will of the lord but a couple which has not the possibilities to raise more than 3 kids and uses then condoms or anything else.

One of the basic points of marriage is raising children - a point the first “morally acting” couple doesn’t fullfill.

So what. So do all types of sins. Should a man cheat on his wife because it happens often?

You don’t want to understand - or?

Noone want’s to legalize sin.

But to minimize the bad influence of the sin to the world must be first aim.

Of course not. Nor should they encourage sin because one thinks the ends justify the means.

Noone want’s to justify anything. The matter is to give helping hands to those who are not as angel-like as you.

Their job is to do good, avoid evil, and not lead another to hell. If a 13 year old wanted to try crack would you suggest finding the purest form of the drug or tell them it is never right and explain why it is never right?

Certainly I would explain why it is never right - but I also know I cannot hinder him/her if he/she really wants.

Same with teenage sex. You can explain, you can talk about the whole long day - but you never will deter all teenagers from it until their marriages.

So if you know about this: ignore it and risk venereal diseases, abortions, foundlings, etc.?

Jesus upheld all of the traditional moral law. Where does it say he dispensed us from any of it? Also, Christ founded a Church He left to guide us to salvation. He speaks to us through His vicar.

Where in the old testament is written about contraceptiva?

The Church and Christ cannot be separated.

The church as the body of the lord not.

But the Catholic Hierarchy is not always identic with him.

Why do you think so little of people?

I don’t think little of people. But I see that saints are very rare. Most of us try and try and try and never reach the aims you set here.

To accept that men are imperfect sinners would be something great.

 

[setter]

This is no answer.

This is an amazing statement for any Catholic to make in refuting the words of Jesus regarding where the power comes from to faithfully follow him and do what he commands.

I know about the scripture and the high ideals Christ gave us and the church teaches us.

…but do you believe the living Word of scripture?

But we are not talking about ideal people, we are talking about sinners. Sinners who need practical help to find the way to salvation step by step.

In every gospel narrative, Christ accpeted each person in personal encounter exactly where they are at, but did not expect nothing less than “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5: 48

If you want to climb a stair you also don’t just take a jump to reach the top.

Life is tricky. Like a stair between heaven and hell.

But it is not massive. Some steps are fragile, others will transform to a slide if you take it wrong.

“Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.” Ephesians 6: 11

“Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12: 12-14

So you need any advice you can get to reach the top. There is the teaching of the lord and the church as a handrail to come upstairs the save way - but men are like little children who just learn to walk stairs.

The problem is the “any advice you can get” which deviates from clear Church teaching in matters of faith and morals is why men settle for less than striving for holiness.

Most men don’t reach the top the handrail - they just clamp to the shoots which connect rail and stair.

They guess what the handrail is, but the could not reach it completely so they try to do their very best.

How many are actively seeking to know and live the truth to the fullest, whatever the personal cost of faithful discipleship to Jesus Christ?

"And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” Luke 9: 23

Sometimes they try to walk the stairs alone - and fail, sometimes they search for guidance and find the rails shoots again.

I think it would be sinful to cut of the shoots and expect everyone to reach the handrail or to risk he will struggle and slide down to hell.

Who is talking about cutting anyone off? I am simply talking about proclaiming the truth clearly and convincingly and letting folks know where they stand and the choices that they face.

As Bishop Burke says: our aim is it to go to heaven. And we have to take as many with us as possible.

But not dragging and kicking.

Article excerpt by Archbishop Raymond L. Burke:

Thirty-seven years have passed since Pope Paul VI addressed the teaching of Christ to what must be called a universal crisis of marriage life and love, namely the widespread acceptance of the use of artificial contraception within the conjugal union. Faithful to the perennial teaching of the Church, the Holy Father called married couples to respect the inseparable life-giving and love-giving dimensions of the conjugal union. He rightly observed that their adherence to the moral norm determines the future of married life and, therefore, of the life of the Church and all of society.

At the same time, the Holy Father cautioned about the breakdown of respect between a man and woman in marriage which is caused by the use of artificial contraception. He expressed especially his fear about the loss of the due respect for women which would result. He also noted the negative effect of the breakdown of observance of the moral law, especially among the young who are more easily tempted in such matters. What is more, he cautioned about the use of artificial contraception by political powers as a solution to what they view as national or international difficulties (n. 17).

stlouisreview.com/abpcolumn.php?abpid=8827

 

[fix]

It’s not so easy as you think.

Why acts a wealthy couple for which it would no problem to raise children but avoiding it completely successful with NFP according to the will of the lord but a couple which has not the possibilities to raise more than 3 kids and uses then condoms or anything else.

One of the basic points of marriage is raising children - a point the first “morally acting” couple doesn’t fullfill.

The Church says there can be serious reasons for spacing births, or avoiding them. That is a separate issue. The point is if that end, avoiding births, is licit the means to achieve it must also be licit.

You don’t want to understand - or?

Noone want’s to legalize sin.

But to minimize the bad influence of the sin to the world must be first aim.

It seems to grasp this point one needs to accept the authority of the Church. Contraceptive acts are always wrong. There is no use of double effect, or anything else, that would allow for contracepted intercourse. A good end is not justified by an evil means.

Noone want’s to justify anything. The matter is to give helping hands to those who are not as angel-like as you.

Helping hands? Leading another to sin is not a good idea. What did Christ say about that? Authentic help includes love and truth. There is no love in helping another sin.

Certainly I would explain why it is never right - but I also know I cannot hinder him/her if he/she really wants.

So, you would provide drugs?

Same with teenage sex. You can explain, you can talk about the whole long day - but you never will deter all teenagers from it until their marriages.

That is true for all sin. Does that mean we declare vice is licit?

So if you know about this: ignore it and risk venereal diseases, abortions, foundlings, etc.?

The cause of veneral diseases and abortion is not failure to commit contraception. Those things result from the choice to say no to God.

Where in the old testament is written about contraceptiva?

THE SIN OF ONAN

The church as the body of the lord not.

But the Catholic Hierarchy is not always identic with him.

Well, that is another thread.

In particular, as the Council affirms, "the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether in its written form or in that of Tradition, has been entrusted only to those charged with the Church’s living Magisterium, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ".41 The Church, in her life and teaching, is thus revealed as “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” ( 1 Tim 3:15), including the truth regarding moral action. Indeed, “the Church has the right always and everywhere to proclaim moral principles, even in respect of the social order, and to make judgments about any human matter in so far as this is required by fundamental human rights or the salvation of souls”.42
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

I don’t think little of people. But I see that saints are very rare. Most of us try and try and try and never reach the aims you set here.

To accept that men are imperfect sinners would be something great.

To imitate and live out the love of Christ is not possible for man by his own strength alone. He becomes *capable of this love only by virtue of a gift received. *As the Lord Jesus receives the love of his Father, so he in turn freely communicates that love to his disciples: “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love” (Jn 15:9). Christ’s gift is his Spirit, whose first “fruit” (cf. Gal 5:22) is charity: “God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us” (Rom 5:5). Saint Augustine asks: “Does love bring about the keeping of the commandments, or does the keeping of the commandments bring about love?” And he answers: “But who can doubt that love comes first? For the one who does not love has no reason for keeping the commandments”.29

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I hope everyone settles down a little
other:

The Church says there can be serious reasons for spacing births, or avoiding them. That is a separate issue. The point is if that end, avoiding births, is licit the means to achieve it must also be licit.

Yes avoiding children can be licit and if the Pope or Magisterium agrees so can be various methods.

 

[setter]

I hope everyone settles down a little

Yes avoiding children can be licit and if the Pope or Magisterium agrees so can be various methods.

What exactly does this statement mean? And what “various methods” are you possibly referring to? Please come out of the shadows and tell us.

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.