I am going nuts here!

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terillmorris

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I have been reading about those who say the Jews still have a valid covenant or not. I really dont know what "valid " means here. I think it is simple. We do not need to talk about “valid” and “invalid.” Here is the point in the discussion–simple question. Can Jews be saved if they reject Christ (of course invincible ignorance excuses and all that–I know so save it will ya) and continue on rejecting the truths of Christ’s church.??? I think the answer is clearly NO!!! So who cares if we say “valid” or “invalid?” I mean lets cut to the chase here. Jews need to be converted to be saved or why did Jesus die on the cross?
 
Is the One True God, the same God Catholics and Jews believe in, going to just use then discard His Chosen People? Can a people, chosen by God to bring knowledge of himself to all humanity be unchosen?

It is a hard question to reconcile.
 
terillmorris said:
I have been reading about those who say the Jews still have a valid covenant or not. I really dont know what "valid " means here. I think it is simple. We do not need to talk about “valid” and “invalid.” Here is the point in the discussion–simple question. Can Jews be saved if they reject Christ (of course invincible ignorance excuses and all that–I know so save it will ya) and continue on rejecting the truths of Christ’s church.??? I think the answer is clearly NO!!! So who cares if we say “valid” or “invalid?” I mean lets cut to the chase here. Jews need to be converted to be saved or why did Jesus die on the cross?
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Pope Pius IX makes it pretty clear:
Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore “But, the Catholic dogma that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church is well-known; and also that those who are obstinate toward the authority and definitions of the same Church, and who persistently separate themselves from the unity of the Church, and from the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, to whom ‘the guardianship of the vine has been entrusted by the Savior,’ (Council of Chalcedon, Letter to Pope Leo I) cannot obtain eternal salvation. The words of Christ are clear enough: ‘And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican’ (Matthew 18:17); ‘He that heareth you, heareth Me; and he that dispeth you, despiseth Me; and he that dispiseth Me, despiseth Him that sent Me’ (Luke 10:16); ‘He that believeth not shall be condemned’ (Mark 16:16); 'He that doth not believe, is already judged” (John 3:18); ‘He that is not with Me, is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me, scattereth’ (Luke 11:23). The Apostle Paul says that such persons are ‘perverted and self-condemned’ (Titus 3:11); the Prince of the Apostles calls the ‘false prophets … who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction’ (2 Peter 2:1)."
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Interesting that Pio Nono writes of persons who “persistently separate themselves” from the church. How does one separate oneself from something of which he is not a part? Clearly the quotation cited does not apply to those who are not Catholic from birth for they do not separate themselves from but are simply not part of the Catholic church.
We can condemn only those actions which a person does of his own free will. We cannot condemn when no action has been taken.

Matthew
 
Jesus say that no one come to the father but by him. Does that mean that those that live in parts of the world that the Gospel has not reached are condemned? Does that apply to to those he heritage does not recognize that Christ was and is the Son of the living God?
what of those who lived and died prior to the Coming of our Lord, are they condemned as well?

I don’t have answers for these Questions nor for the OP. I know that I have no option but to pray for God grace and Acceptance of Jesus as my Lord and savior. For I have heard the Gospel. As for all other all I can do is share with other my faith and Pray for God mercy for me and all men.
 
terillmorris said:
I have been reading about those who say the Jews still have a valid covenant or not. I really dont know what "valid " means here. I think it is simple. We do not need to talk about “valid” and “invalid.” Here is the point in the discussion–simple question. Can Jews be saved if they reject Christ (of course invincible ignorance excuses and all that–I know so save it will ya) and continue on rejecting the truths of Christ’s church.??? I think the answer is clearly NO!!! So who cares if we say “valid” or “invalid?” I mean lets cut to the chase here. Jews need to be converted to be saved or why did Jesus die on the cross?
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We need to listen carefully to what our beloved Pope says and does. We can not know God’s purposes. We can only serve Christ in love and charity towards all.
 
I really believe some of you are going to end up in hell because you wont preach the hard truth of salvation. That all non Catholics need to convert to the one true Church in order to be saved. It is so hard for some of you to accept it. Shame!!! I wouldnt want to be you on judgement day. Cowards!!! You would rather be liked than be right.
 
One cannot be saved outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If a person has rejected this Church, and the one faith of the Apostles, they cannot be saved.

It’s as simple as that. There’s no need to complicate the matter with vague and ambigious terms, or with feeble suggestions that human beings have no responsibility to adhere to the truth because “God loves everyone”. That isn’t helpful.
 
Dauphin said:
One cannot be saved outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If a person has rejected this Church, and the one faith of the Apostles, they cannot be saved.

It’s as simple as that. There’s no need to complicate the matter with vague and ambigious terms, or with feeble suggestions that human beings have no responsibility to adhere to the truth because “God loves everyone”. That isn’t helpful.
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We must always remember that the Church transcends time and space. God knows the heart and soul of each person and is able to bring a soul to His Church when and how He sees fit.

We must constantly pray for God’s Divine Mercy.
 
Dauphin said:
One cannot be saved outside the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. If a person has rejected this Church, and the one faith of the Apostles, they cannot be saved.

It’s as simple as that. There’s no need to complicate the matter with vague and ambigious terms, or with feeble suggestions that human beings have no responsibility to adhere to the truth because “God loves everyone”. That isn’t helpful.
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I think that is the key. Have the rejected knowning the church. If they have not been brought into the church then they can’t reject what they don’t know. Who’s fault is it for not bring the church to them? Ours so i don’t think God is going to punish them to for our lack of spreading the gospel.

Anyways why is everyone so focused on who is going to hell? I mean seriously i have enough issues with my own life that i am not going to sit here and pass judgement on anyone salvation for it is not up to me but up to GOD. Why not just leave it in his hands?
 
terillmorris said:
I have been reading about those who say the Jews still have a valid covenant or not. I really dont know what "valid " means here. I think it is simple. We do not need to talk about “valid” and “invalid.” Here is the point in the discussion–simple question. Can Jews be saved if they reject Christ (of course invincible ignorance excuses and all that–I know so save it will ya) and continue on rejecting the truths of Christ’s church.??? I think the answer is clearly NO!!! So who cares if we say “valid” or “invalid?” I mean lets cut to the chase here. Jews need to be converted to be saved or why did Jesus die on the cross?
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You are breaking ecumenical and interreligious protocol - common sense is not allowed! :tsktsk:

DD
 
The Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works, among other things, are necessary for salvation and that faith without works is dead. I’d rather be a person outside of the Church with works and a less-than-perfect faith than a bona fide Catholic in terms of membership in the Church with little to show for my faith in terms of works. I’d place my trust first in the love and mercy of God of which our Church speaks -even if I had never heard of this-towards those who love and are willing to deny self for others. For myself, to leave the CC would be to reject God. But if I had no formal knowledge of Him, I’d rather face Him knowing I had loved well then knowing I only had the right credentials. And if I have both, I have little to fear.
 
fhansen said:
The Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works, among other things, are necessary for salvation and that faith without works is dead. I’d rather be a person outside of the Church with works and a less-than-perfect faith than a bona fide Catholic in terms of membership in the Church with little to show for my faith in terms of works. I’d place my trust first in the love and mercy of God of which our Church speaks -even if I had never heard of this-towards those who love and are willing to deny self for others. For myself, to leave the CC would be to reject God. But if I had no formal knowledge of Him, I’d rather face Him knowing I had loved well then knowing I only had the right credentials. And if I have both, I have little to fear.
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You are correct, faith without works is what the Catholic Church teaches to CATHOLIC’S. And you are correct that both are needed for salvation, as faith without works is a dead faith. Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation, nor remission of sin. You have much to fear if you remain in your heretical belief’s; HELL. We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling; the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. The unanimous consensus of the Church Father’s is more Catholic’s go to hell than heaven. One should be very fearful, as the pit of hell will be deeper for the Catholic, than one that was never given the hope of salvation. Unbelieving Jews will not be saved unless they convert to the Catholic faith before they die. The Old Covenant ceased with the death of Jesus on the Cross. One must now believe in Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith in order to be saved.
 
terillmorris said:
I really believe some of you are going to end up in hell because you wont preach the hard truth of salvation. That all non Catholics need to convert to the one true Church in order to be saved. It is so hard for some of you to accept it. Shame!!! I wouldnt want to be you on judgement day. Cowards!!! You would rather be liked than be right.
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I for one are in complete agreement with you. The scriptures even explain it; Matthew 16: 15-19]; Matthew 28: 18-20]; John 10:16]; Ezechiel 34:23]; John 21:15-17]; *[Matthew 18: 17]; *[2Thessalonians 1 : 7–10]; [2Thessalonians 2 : 8–11]; [Luke 13, 22-27]; and the list goes on; it is also in Catholic Dogma.

I do however understand that there are certain exceptions that are explained in the moral theology, i.e. if one is completely unaware of the Catholic Church and is unable to find the Church; in those cases though right before death they are baptized Catholic due the intercession of Our Blessed Mother (there are documented cases of this). Also the mentally ill (retardation) fall into this category.
 
terillmorris said:
I have been reading about those who say the Jews still have a valid covenant or not. I really dont know what "valid " means here. I think it is simple. We do not need to talk about “valid” and “invalid.” Here is the point in the discussion–simple question. Can Jews be saved if they reject Christ (of course invincible ignorance excuses and all that–I know so save it will ya) and continue on rejecting the truths of Christ’s church.??? I think the answer is clearly NO!!! So who cares if we say “valid” or “invalid?” I mean lets cut to the chase here. Jews need to be converted to be saved or why did Jesus die on the cross?
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Did God mean it when he said “You will be my people and I will be your God” or not? If we can’t believe that he was faithful to his covenant with the Jews, why should we believe that he will be faithful to his covenant with us?

From the Catechism:

839
"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ";328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
 
I have an idea that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is going to be around for a long time.

It is a beautifully written book.

Do you believe that Pope John Paul II
and Pope Benedict XVI
are anti-popes?

I am relatively new to this way of thinking and find that hard to understand because I love them both so very much.
 
HelenRose said:
It is a beautifully written book.
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And an ambigiously written book…

In certain paragraphs it does not jive with what has been taught in Catechisms and Encyclicals of the past (the paragraph quoted by SuscipeMeDomine is a perfect example). That is why we should ignore it (not entirely, but for the most part) and read the old Catechisms, etc. as they are all in conformity with each other.
Do you believe that Pope John Paul II
and Pope Benedict XVI
are anti-popes?
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No, they’re real Popes.
 
SemperFidelis said:
Part of the problem is the CCC…
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I think you have to be wary of being more Catholic than the Pope. If someone can’t accept the Catechism as authentic teaching of the Church then there’s a major problem.
 
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