"I am in a state of grace" or "I am in the right relationship with God"

[MelanieAnne]

Perhaps in some capacity, but not quite Zooey… I appreciate what you’re getting at, but certainly in my area “I’m saved” means something quite different than “I’m in a state of grace”.

Just look at the gramatic structure of both, “I’m saved” speaks of finality, I was saved, it happend, it’s a done deal.

As opposed to

I’m in a state of grace

That is my current state is one of grace, if I were to die this very second it’s very likely I would go to heaven. But notice, it says “I’m in a state of”, a state is a mode of being, modes of being are very much subject to change.

I’m in a state of grace now, but Lord knows how long it’s going to last. Hopefully I’ll remain in this mode for a very long time, God willing I will remain in this mode until I die. But there is no guarantee of this.

Now I do realize the contrast I draw might not feel 100% appropriate to all protestants everywhere, but I will say that it is most appropriate 1) for my geographic area and 2) for the types of protestants typically targeting Catholics.

I agree that being “saved” is different from being in a “state of grace” and that “saved” has an element of finality to it.

However, many Protestants appear to use the word “saved” to mean a state that, once attained, cannot be undone (once saved, always saved) and it appears to me that it is more of a shorthand way of signaling acceptance of Jesus as their “personal savior”, another Protestant catch phrase.

It’s like we’re saying the same word but meaning totally different things by it.

 

[KathleenGee]

State of grace is temporary state of being free of serious, mortal sin…however, there is always the warning of Christ…those who persevere to the end will be saved…

So for a Catholic to say that they are in a state of grace…is a little shakey and a little presumptious.

I agree with Rinnie’s perspective that it is better we say we trust in Christ’s mercy.

 

[crazzeto]

State of grace is temporary state of being free of serious, mortal sin…however, there is always the warning of Christ…those who persevere to the end will be saved…

So for a Catholic to say that they are in a state of grace…is a little shakey and a little presumptious.

I agree with Rinnie’s perspective that it is better we say we trust in Christ’s mercy.

I don’t know if I can agree with the idea that God has made this process so mysterious that it is utterly impossible for one to make an honest determination. This isn’t to say a person can’t be fooling them selves, or that they couldn’t possibly be lieing outwardly.

I’m not going to make the claim that everyone walking into a confessional is ready for heaven when they walk about. But I will say that this process isn’t so mysterious that it is impossible to determain if you are 1) being honest with your self 2) open to the guidence of the spirit 3) have done at least basic homework into making a proper confession and examining your contience.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Rinnie

God bless you. I was waiting for a catholic to use the word simple in some way.

As a non catholic christian, I used the term savfed and as you are aware I am sure there is a lot of presumpttion that goes with the term “saved”

OSAS is a red flag that gets raised…warning stay away

I for one do not believe in OSAS just to let you know.

I believe exactly what you are staing here…

In order to be in a state of grace you cannot be in a state of sin. Its as simple of that.

As far as the other only you know if you are in the right relationship with God. No one can answer that for you.

Amen

I am in a state of Grace right after confession. I have confessed all of my sins, have been forgiven and ***I am sure ***I am in the right place with God.

**Rinnie can I ask you is it then that you are sure you will go to heaven?

that is until you…**

But once I sin I have once again separated myself with him. Then I must once again repent and confess my sin.

Amen

If its venial I do not need a Priest, if its Mortal I must have a Priest. But that is what a state of grace means you are at the moment free from sin. I would say being in a state of Grace for sure is in the right relationship with God.

and you would go to heavern should you die at that time only …yes?

Thank you and God bless

 

[KathleenGee]

May be I should clarify…

I go to confession, but I know I am a sinner and could fail again…so I put my trust in the Lord, my conscience is clear having gone to confession, but I put my trust more in the Lord’s forgiveness…I put my trust in the Lord.

 

[mpjw2]

May be I should clarify…

I go to confession, but I know I am a sinner and could fail again…so I put my trust in the Lord, my conscience is clear having gone to confession, but I put my trust more in the Lord’s forgiveness…I put my trust in the Lord.

Thank you Kathleen,

we all fail again after confession…noones perfect.

the point is like you said, after confession, we trust the Lord that He forgives us and should we die*** before ***the next time we fail…We trust the Lord to accept us into heaven.

I believe that…don’t you?

as Rinnie also posted

IF you are a Catholic and you have just confessed all of your sins and have been given complete absolution and you walk out of that Church you have a very very good chance of entering heaven. I believe right then and there you can trust the Lord …you are going to heaven You would have no mortal sin and according to the teachings of the Church if you die in the state of Gods grace you can enter heaven. Of course that is between you and God though. Only you and God know ones heart.

AMEN

But if you indeed did a perfect confession its a good place to be. A place I pray I will be in near the end. Actually wish I could be there every second.

I agree Rinnie

Here is a great read on reconciliation

Reconciliation: An Experience of Forgiveness
americancatholic.org/News…/YU/ay0199.asp

thank you and God bless you

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

State of grace is temporary state of being free of serious, mortal sin…however, there is always the warning of Christ…those who persevere to the end will be saved…

So for a Catholic to say that they are in a state of grace…is a little shakey and a little presumptious.

I agree with Rinnie’s perspective that it is better we say we trust in Christ’s mercy.

I am finding out Kathleen that language is a big challenge in a forum such as this.

You may post something with what you believe.

Unfortunately, after reading your post it may mean something totally different to me than the message you are sending…

If you know what I mean…I hope I was clear

God bless

mpjw

 

[MelanieAnne]

I am finding out Kathleen that language is a big challenge in a forum such as this.

You may post something with what you believe.

Unfortunately, after reading your post it may mean something totally different to me than the message you are sending…

If you know what I mean…I hope I was clear

God bless

mpjw

mpjw2 ~ I think you have defined the issue. The problem often is in the definition of terms. We can all talk about various things but if we don’t define certain words and terms precisely, we may be talking past each other.

Not that it’s on topic, but just as an example, Mormons talk about a lot of different Christian concepts, but their definition of many, of not all, words and terms is different from others. I believe that the Mormon church does this on purpose, actually ignoring on purpose the misunderstanding of potential converts, but of course I can’t actually know for sure. Certainly the hierarchy knows and the fact that they don’t correct the problem speaks volumes.

What this sort of difference of understanding shows, unfortunately, is that we cannot take for granted what words mean, what terms mean. Someone else may have an entirely different understanding of the words and terms they use.

So we always have to start out with defining what important words and terms mean. Only then can we actually have an informed dialog.

 

[mpjw2]

Normally, the priest would be the one to determine this whether sins are truly forgiven.

If the priest can discern that the sin is not repented of, even slightly, he can tell them they are not forgiven of that sin.

If the person makes a false confession (claiming to have repented when they indeed have not, or deliberately withholding sin they should have confessed) then they are not forgiven that sin and may be further guilty of making a false confession.

If you were truly penitent and did not withhold your sin, Reconciliation is absolute.

I agree Son Catcher a priest can sense sincerity in the person’s heart who is confessing

But the fact of the matter is, If it is a false confession and the priest accepts it as sincere,

the confessor may have fooled the priest but they can not fool God.

 

[mpjw2]

Your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist here: What either of these phrases means is what a non-Catholic means by “being saved” or “Being born again”.
The semantics of Christian conversation can be very challenging at times; often someone either (A) uses the same words to mean a different thing, or (B) uses different words to mean the same thing.
This happens, by the bye, between various Protestant groups as well as between Catholics & Protestants; I am still pretty much:shrug: in the dark about a LOT of what I hear/read from Presbyterians…

yes they can

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Melanie Anne

mpjw2 ~ I think you have defined the issue.

I appreciate you acknowledging my post…

The problem often is in the definition of terms. We can all talk about various things but if we don’t define certain words and terms precisely, we may be talking past each other.

for sure. I am here in this forum to try to find a way if possible to break down those communication barriers so that we christians as a whole family can better understand each other.

I was raise catholic and quite frankly the subject of salvation was foreign language to me totally

I at one time too felt threatened by those other christians who told me i needed Jesus Christ and also needed to be saved.

Can you relate???

I could not wait till they got out of my way

who the heck were they to tell me anything against what was taught to me by my parents, priests, and the nuns at my school…I even have an aunt who is a nun

well things happened in my life…another thread for story telling.

I am presently at a place I never in my life expected to be in while living my young adult years.

I mention that word saved to catholics today and i finding out that word means OSAS to a catholic…

Guess what?
I for a while did not know what the heck OSAS was

now I do and i am thinking …

Oh my God , there are christians who believe by Jesus dying for their sins gives them a green light to live any way they dang well please.

In as much as it was hard to believe, I have personally met christians who enjoyed being in sin, did not give it any 2nd thought, and when I questioned then about do you believe what you are doing is pleasing to God…

they told me off in not such a polite way.

then God led me here. I was not sure of why…I do now

and just to let you know it is not to encourage Catholics to leave the Catholic church

It is to find a way to communicate better with you

Melanie and all who read this…look at #26 of this thread

I believe I found some common ground and this thread has served its purpose…thank you God

being in a state of grace and/or being in the right relationship with God…

I believe means to Kathleen and Rinnie that they just went to confession and trust God their sins are forgiven whereby they also trust God to accept them into heaven should they …as Kathleen said…

die before the next time we fail

so simple and right to the point…

If I may add one extra point I firmly believe that if you as catholics fail, you do not have to wait for the next time you go to confession before a priest to confess that sin,

If you were to confess that sin sincerely to God in prayer and ask for forgiveness, you can trust the Lord to forgive you

God forbid you should die before you get to confession
I do not say that to scare you, but nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.

Want a good laugh?

I posted in another thread on the 5th of May #554

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6604114&postcount=554

the thread is at #1022

matthew just posted to me in 1021…

So far i have very little idea what you believe.

a read of 554 pretty much sums up what I believe

Problem is I have not used terms catholics understand

What this sort of difference of understanding shows, unfortunately, is that*** we cannot take for granted ***what words mean, what terms mean. Someone else may have an entirely different understanding of the words and terms they use.

Melanie …great comment…

Wow I am sorry I was long…I got carried away sharing my heart

God bless you all

mpjw

I am interested to see where this thread goes from here

Is this a start to breaking through our communication gap?

I pray to God it can be a start

 

[LilyM]

If I may add one extra point I firmly believe that if you as catholics fail, you do not have to wait for the next time you go to confession before a priest to confess that sin,

If you were to confess that sin sincerely to God in prayer and ask for forgiveness, you can trust the Lord to forgive you

God forbid you should die before you get to confession
I do not say that to scare you, but nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.

What you say is no surprise to Catholics, except those who are woefully ignorant of their faith. Among the Catholic teaching you were raised in, surely you must be aware of the concept of Perfect Contrition?

Of course one confesses to God directly as soon as one becomes aware of and/or repentant for one’s sins. And one will be saved by doing so - IF one dies without having had the opportunity to go to confession. However, the fact of being sorry doesn’t excuse one from the responsibility to get to confession as soon as possible.

And it is dangerous to rely on one’s private confession in the case of mortal sin, because confessions can be insincere and sins can be retained - if Christ gave His apostles authority to do so, what does it mean except that He also, if our confession is insincere (and certainly some are), will retain sins?

I use the following analogy. If my car breaks down in a remote place I might be able to patch it up with duct tape, chewing gum, hairpins or whatnot, sufficiently to get it working again. But I’m certainly not going to rely on that rough-and-ready patchup job to hold permanently. It won’t! Being sensible, I’m only going to rely on it to get my car as far as the nearest garage where it can be properly repaired.

Private confession is the rough-and-ready patchup job, the confessional is the garage where one can get a professional repair job done.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Lily love your signature

It is Easter every day Jesus has risen and is alive Alleluia

What you say is no surprise to Catholics, except those who are woefully ignorant of their faith. Among the Catholic teaching you were raised in, surely you must be aware of the concept of Perfect Contrition?

yes I am

**Of course one confesses to God directly **as soon as one becomes aware of and/or repentant for one’s sins.

Believe it or not you are the first Catholic on here I heard acknowledge that to me

And one will be saved by doing so - IF one dies without having had the opportunity to go to confession.

Oh my God Lily…God bless you…I knew catholics believe this but they are hesitant to proclaim it publically

Lilly…I can not speak for other Christians…but when I say I am saved I mean just what you stated.

However, the fact of being sorry doesn’t excuse one from the responsibility to get to confession as soon as possible.

I understand what the catholic belief is. I am sure you are aware I do not go to a priest in confession

However, I have trust in my spouse, men’s small group whom I confide in , or a counselor.
either one holds me acconuntable

And it is dangerous to rely on one’s private confession in the case of mortal sin, because confessions can be insincere and sins can be retained - if Christ gave His apostles authority to do so, what does it mean except that He also, if our confession is insincere (and certainly some are), will retain sins?

of course insincere confessions will be retained.

I believe the person who is confessing before God, whether a priest is present or not knows how sincere they are in their confession.

And if they were honest with themself they know from the Holy Spirit who dwells within whether or not their confession was forgiven or not.

I use the following analogy. If my car breaks down in a remote place I might be able to patch it up with duct tape, chewing gum, hairpins or whatnot, sufficiently to get it working again. But I’m certainly not going to rely on that rough-and-ready patchup job to hold permanently. It won’t! Being sensible, I’m only going to rely on it to get my car as far as the nearest garage where it can be properly repaired.

very good analogy

Private confession is the rough-and-ready patchup job, the confessional is the garage where one can get a professional repair job done.

thank you lily

bottom line is
I believe God will not punish…unforgive…a sincere confessing repentant heart of any of His children.

If the person is honest with themself and only God knows, God will not let that person down

In God we Trust

Amen

God bless you

 

[paul_c]

MPJW,
I think you are mistaken about the core issue here. You currently are under the illusion that the difference between what you believe and what Catholics believe is only a matter of terminology. It is not.

You want to believe that you are going to heaven. You want to believe that you can know that in life. You want guarantees.

Catholics don’t think that way at all. We never try to judge ourselves or others worthy of heaven or hll because that is God’s job. There are no guarantees in Catholic Theology. We try to love God and each other as best we can. We play the role of unworth servants. It may seem a paradox to you , but if you are trying to get to heaven, you will never get there. You need to serve without expecting any reward, doing it solely out of love. When you become completely selfless, you become completely holy and ready for heaven.

 

[crazzeto]

May be I should clarify…

I go to confession, but I know I am a sinner and could fail again…so I put my trust in the Lord, my conscience is clear having gone to confession, but I put my trust more in the Lord’s forgiveness…I put my trust in the Lord.

Certainly, I am still a sinner I struggle every day… I guess the point I was getting at is this, it’s not impossible to know when you are spiritually in a pretty good place, future failure not withstanding. That is to say, your earlier post made it sound like even immediatly after confession it is utterly impossible for someone to know where they are spiritually at that moment.

I would suggest otherwise, it’s not utterly impossible though it does take some effort. But as you say, I’m a sinner and I place my trust in the Lord. Amen.

 

[KathleenGee]

I guess that is my answer to the either/or…just do my best, draw on the sacraments, and trust in the Lord’s mercy.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Paul…good to hear from you again:thumbsup:

MPJW,
I think you are mistaken about the core issue here. You currently are under the illusion that the difference between what you believe and what Catholics believe is only a matter of terminology. It is not.

MelanieAnne disagrees

mpjw2 ~ I think you have defined the issue. The problem often is in the definition of terms. We can all talk about various things but if we don’t define certain words and terms precisely, we may be talking past each other.

You want to believe that you are going to heaven. You want to believe that you can know that in life.

as do your catholic brethern right on this thread…have you read their posts

after confession, right when their soul is in a state of grace and before the next time they sin they stated they are going to heaven

Do you not believe that about your soul?

what is the purpose of reconciliation then?

Catholics don’t think that way at all.

they don’t …read the posts on this thread again

LilyM in #32 for one

We never try to judge ourselves or others worthy of heaven or hell because that is God’s job.

you right God is the judge, but if your soul is in a state of grace there is nothing to judge and to heaven you will go

I am sorry if you do not believe that, I however do and other catholics do too

one of them is JRKH in the following thread who has assurance after confession

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6659298&postcount=30

There are no guarantees in Catholic Theology.

Paul you are right there are no guarantees but there is the promise of God

What does the promise of God mean to you?

I trust God not to break His promise

We try to love God and each other as best we can. We play the role of unworthy servants.

agree 100%

but if you are trying to get to heaven, you will never get there.

Thats good because I am not trying to get to heaven, I am trying to tell as many people as I can about the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

By Jesus’s sacrifice, a path to heaven has been made

You need to serve without expecting any reward, doing it solely out of love.

Absolutely…Did you read my post about me praying for my servers needs at a restaurant?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6655832&postcount=1

When you become completely selfless, you become completely holy and ready for heaven.

Paul I been saying all along, maybe God will not give me the time I need to be completely selfless…tonight just might be my last night on this earth…

then what?

JRKH answered that question…you just do not believe it

My question is why?

In God we trust

in all do respect Paul, do you trust God and his Promise?

mpjw

 

[paul_c]

mpjw
While definition of terms is an impediment to understanding, it is not the only impediment.

You are coming increasingly closer to the Catholic view point, which is good.

You disavow OSAS, you understand that God is the Judge.

Catholics do believe that if they are in the state of grace, they will ultimately go to heaven and Catholics should only recieve the eucharist when they are in the state of grace.

But Catholics don’t overtly think about that as meaning they are guaranteed heaven because they know that presumption is the devil’s trap. We know we need to focus on loving God and others, following the commandments. And we know that there is always the potential to fall from Grace through sin so we would never make the claims that you do, “I’ve been saved”. Just love. Stop worring about reward. That’s what all of us need to do.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Hi Paul…good to hear from you again:thumbsup:

MelanieAnne disagrees

mpjw

Um, mpjw, please don’t attempt to characterize what I agree or disagree with, especially if you do not know what I agree or disagree with. Feel free to enter into discussions, but kindly leave me out of it.

Just to clarify, I DID say, at one point, that many people will use certain words and terms and may erroneously assume that their listeners/readers have the same understanding of the words and terms as they do.

I did NOT say that differences of Catholic understanding and those of others is strictly a function of differences in terminology.

My point in pointing out the differences in terminology is that it is difficult to even have a conversation about an issue or a doctrine of faith when the various participants to the conversation have different definitions of the words themselves, much less a common understanding of the doctrine being discussed. You have to have a clear common understanding of the words and terms before any productive dialog can occur. Without that, it’s almost as if one person is speaking English and the other is speaking Chinese.