I am losing my sanity!!!

[Larry1700]

I did my best today to avoid think about this rather bitter topic…

I watched some DVDs of the Japanese Yu-Gi-Oh! episodes …I did not help me expunge those thoughts about the pernicious book…

I will watch more episodes while my parents are at Mass tomorrow.

You are a scientifically-minded person. You’re aware of the scientific method. Is it perhaps time to try something else? You might try going to Mass with your parents instead!

Have you talked to them about what’s troubling you?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Try “Brave New World” then think about the age of the book. The “Bell Curve” contains nothing new, it is an old subject revisited. If people are destined to misery based on IQ that is a look at our society not at the people with low IQ. I do not agree with the assessments made by book.

 

[jman507]

This reminds me of Chesterton saying that the insane do not lose their ability to reason, they have lost everything but their reason. They weave their reasoning in to such a tight circle, they block out other ideas. The sane people are able to have enough irrational thoughts to understand they might not understand everything.

So I’m wondering, do you think you have a low IQ that is making you miserable? Could it be possible for a person with a high IQ to be miserable while a person with a low IQ to be joyful? Maybe you need to spend some time with people with special needs.

There is also the problem with what actual is equal? Isn’t their something pretty basic that one of the advantages of sexual reproduction over asexual reproduction is the diversity of traits made by sexual reproduction. Environments always change, and some pure genetic types are more fit, granted their is also the luck of being in the right place at the right time. If a huge boulder falls on you, it would matter your genetic make-up.

If your going to make a triangle and a square equal, at best you will have to decide do you want it equal in parameter or area, you can’t do both. If you wanting to do it by number of sides, you better give up. If you want to make people equal, well you might have to settle for some trait. But the thing is do you have any idea if that grand scheme is doing anyone good or bad?

If you want to help society, well you can only do so much, other people have their own ideas too. Maybe you can help a few people out a bit more intimatly, get to know them. Go to the Boy’s and Girl’s Club. Go visit some people in the nursing home. Help build a house. In the end the problem with any rational idea about helping people out, is that you have no idea of the unintended consequences of such action. Maybe if you were God, you could understand what to do, but the problem is from our vantage point one couldn’t make out heads or tails if that being is doing good or bad, because we lack the ability to know all, and see it workout in context of everything.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

The Bell Curve argues that people who have a low IQ live in poverty and are prone to incarceration; thus, they live miserably lives.

Well that is a generalism easily dismantled. I work in a high needs area of a big city. I know plenty of poor kids with high IQs. I also know plenty of rich parents with low IQs.

 

[ribozyme]

Well that is a generalism easily dismantled. I work in a high needs area of a big city. I know plenty of poor kids with high IQs. I also know plenty of rich parents with low IQs.

How do you know those people have a “low IQ” or a “high IQ”? I bet you didn’t administer the WISC on them… I am are simply relying on what you percieve as “intelligence”.

I do not know what “intelligence” is? I would call someone “moronic” if they cannot complete a sequence such as this: Citrate, cis-aconotate, isocitrate, oxalosuccinate,a-ketoglutarate, Succinyl-CoA, succinate, fumarate, D-malate, ________ .

I would not draw any conclusions about innate characteristics from that though.

You are a scientifically-minded person. You’re aware of the scientific method. Is it perhaps time to try something else? You might try going to Mass with your parents instead!

Since I just watched hours of Japanese Yu-Gi-Oh!, I’ll respond in the manner of Seto Kaiba (he believes that magic and the supernatural is simply superstition), I think the notion of transubstantiation is substition and religion is a crutch for those who need emotional comfort.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
From: yu-jyo.net/001/001.html

(Japanese Kaiba reading Also Sprach Zarathustra)

Unfortunately, it did not help me deal with this issue.

 

[FCEGM]

. . . I think the notion of transubstantiation is substition and religion is a crutch for those who need emotional comfort. . .

I’m sure I’m not the only one who finds this strangely ironic.

 

[tdgesq]

How do you know those people have a “low IQ” or a “high IQ”? I bet you didn’t administer the WISC on them… I am are simply relying on what you percieve as “intelligence”.

IIRC, the book does note that we may be able to get a rough idea of a person’s IQ from observing him. It is true that we wouldn’t know with any kind of scientific precision what the number would be without administering the test. But the poster is simply verifying by observation what the data ultimately bears out - that a specific person that fits within the parameters of the sample may have an IQ several standard deviations above the median.

I think the notion of transubstantiation is substition and religion is a crutch for those who need emotional comfort.

Did someone here ask you to believe in transubstantiation? I must have missed it. I think that everyone in there own way is telling you that data from this statistical study and the conclusions drawn therefrom don’t indicate how we should act on them.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

ribozyme:

How do you know those people have a “low IQ” or a “high IQ”? I bet you didn’t administer the WISC on them… I am are simply relying on what you percieve as “intelligence”.

Fair enough. I did not administer an IQ test on them. I drew my conclusions about their intelligence because I am a teacher and because I observed them over a period of time in problem-solving situations and in learning situations.

ribozyme:

Since I just watched hours of Japanese Yu-Gi-Oh!, I’ll respond in the manner of Seto Kaiba (he believes that magic and the supernatural is simply superstition), I think the notion of transubstantiation is substition and religion is a crutch for those who need emotional comfort.

Hmmm. So you require quite a bit of proof from others but not a hekuvva lot from yourself? Is that how it works?

 

[SeekerJen]

I do not know what “intelligence” is? I would call someone “moronic” if they cannot complete a sequence such as this: Citrate, cis-aconotate, isocitrate, oxalosuccinate,a-ketoglutarate, Succinyl-CoA, succinate, fumarate, D-malate, ________ .

Please tell me you are joking. Not everyone who is intelligent studies the Krebs cycle. Memorization is not a good indicator of intelligence.

 

[Jennifer123]

Ribo-

I hope not to offend, but I for one am no longer going to allow myself to be a part of, what I perceive to be, manipulative and indulgent games.
I have felt in the past that you truly were looking for answers, seeking truth, but now I feel baited (“religion is a crutch”).

Intelligence is no substitute for compassion and empathy, the milk of human kindness. My hope for you is that you stop living in your head and develop a heart for I see a lonely future for you, and that is sad. Ideas, philosophies, “book learning”, is great, but it is no substitute for “living”. I hope you can extend some charity and spend time with those less fortunate, it will do you much good.

God Bless.

 

[ribozyme]

Ribo-

I hope not to offend, but I for one am no longer going to allow myself to be a part of, what I perceive to be, manipulative and indulgent games.
I have felt in the past that you truly were looking for answers, seeking truth, but now I feel baited (“religion is a crutch”).

Intelligence is no substitute for compassion and empathy, the milk of human kindness. My hope for you is that you stop living in your head and develop a heart for I see a lonely future for you, and that is sad. Ideas, philosophies, “book learning”, is great, but it is no substitute for “living”. I hope you can extend some charity and spend time with those less fortunate, it will do you much good.

God Bless.

No, I merely stated my own opinion when I said “religion is a crutch”. I also tried to say it in a somewhat humorous manner (by associating it with Seto Kaiba).

I made the reference to embryo selection because it seems likely that parents use it in that manner. One cannot easily reject the prospect of enhancing their progeny’s intelligence by one standard deviation. Instead of accusing me of chicanery, we should acknowledge the potential social implications of future reproductive technologies.

Maybe your correct, I spend a majority of my own free time reading (with the exception of yesterday and today, of course).

SeekerJen, yes I was joking as my tone was marked with levity. I do think “intelligence” is the ability to synthesis information derived from complex sources rather than reiterating it.

 

[ribozyme]

Ribo-

Intelligence is no substitute for compassion and empathy, the milk of human kindness. My hope for you is that you stop living in your head and develop a heart for I see a lonely future for you, and that is sad. Ideas, philosophies, “book learning”, is great, but it is no substitute for “living”. I hope you can extend some charity and spend time with those less fortunate, it will do you much good.

God Bless.

I suppose it is pathetic to say the last time that I meet with other people (besides school) was playing YGO at a card shop about two years ago.

Perhaps, this might be related to Asperger syndrome, as I easily get engrossed with one topic or another. I tend to gravitate towards rote memorization, but I also perceive myself as a computer which constantly assimilates information and processes it.

I think you might be correct.

BTW, SeekerJen, I looked it up, I got the wrong enantiomer of malate

 

[JimG]

Since you spend a lot of free time reading, perhaps you should diversify. Frank Sheed or Peter Kreeft or Mortimer Adler come to mind. I can’t believe that Yu-Gi-Oh is any good for your intellectual development.

 

[timotheos]

I fear The Bell Curve will bring out the worst in me and I might advocate cruel policies. I fear I might metamorphize into a compassionless person.

Ribozyme! You truth-seeker, you. I am pleased; your post has made my day. That quiet little voice in you, you know, the one that a rigorous scientific mind should be able to drown out, is alive and well.

I merely stated my own opinion when I said “religion is a crutch”.

I have said these very words, many years ago. I wanted the truth, not an anxiety-allaying crutch, and certainly not one that rendered my intellectual sensibilities superfluous. I wanted the self-assurance, the peace, that would only be possible by knowing the truth. To my surprise, I found both. You will too. Work at your own pace, test it all, reason through it, retain what is true. The other posters here have good ideas. Here’s another – Read the first couple chapters of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He wrote this as a collection of radio speeches during the time of the very real threat of a pro-eugenics juggernaut (WWII Germany). Don’t be swayed by the title, he doesn’t preach at all. His reasoning may very well resonate with you and the problems you are having with eugenics, and he may be a very good guide for you through this quandry.

Peace, Tim

 

[ribozyme]

Ribozyme! You truth-seeker, you. I am pleased; your post has made my day. That quiet little voice in you, you know, the one that a rigorous scientific mind should be able to drown out, is alive and well.

I have said these very words, many years ago. I wanted the truth, not an anxiety-allaying crutch, and certainly not one that rendered my intellectual sensibilities superfluous. I wanted the self-assurance, the peace, that would only be possible by knowing the truth. To my surprise, I found both. You will too. Work at your own pace, test it all, reason through it, retain what is true. The other posters here have good ideas. Here’s another – Read the first couple chapters of Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. He wrote this as a collection of radio speeches during the time of the very real threat of a pro-eugenics juggernaut (WWII Germany). Don’t be swayed by the title, he doesn’t preach at all. His reasoning may very well resonate with you and the problems you are having with eugenics, and he may be a very good guide for you through this quandry.

Peace, Tim

I do not know if calling me a “truth-seeker” was a sign of sarcasm, but I will not question your motives. But I will say this, I think Jennifer was correct when she stated: “I have felt in the past that you truly were looking for answers, seeking truth, but now I feel baited (“religion is a crutch”).”

No, I did not start this thread to denigrate religion… Instead I am worried that I might lose my sense of compassion and I believe that it is best that I expressed my feelings. However, I must add that I doubt I will “convert”. So if you want to accuse me of being “closed-minded”, go ahead.

Again, this topic was not about the existence of God, but the moral implications of such research (e.g. Linda Gottfredson, Richard Lynn, J.P. Rushton, Charles Murray’s work). Don’t ignore the public policy implications of Richard Lynn’s ideas.

For example:

My book* Eugenics (Westport, CT: Praeger, 2001) considers what measures could be taken to rectify this and discusses the genetic future of mankind. It is argued that genetic improvement is likely to evolve spontaneously through the technique of embryo selection in which women will use IVF to grow a number of embryos, have them genetically assessed and will select for implantation those with genetically desirable qualities.* It is also likely that some authoritarian states will use genetic engineering to improve the genetic quality of their populations for military purposes.**

rlynn.co.uk/

emphasis mine

 

[timotheos]

I do not know if calling me a “truth-seeker” was a sign of sarcasm, but I will not make any insinuations.

No sarcasm intended; the internet is a poor instrument for communicating intent and innuendo. I have read many of your posts on other threads, and have great respect for your honesty and the way you present your thoughts.

However, I must add that I doubt I will “convert”. So if you want to accuse me of being “closed-minded”, go ahead.

While you may have had accusations in the past from others, you will not get them from me. And conversion, if it is to happen, is between God and you. No one else need be involved; indeed, others tend to mess up the process.

-Tim

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… One cannot easily reject the prospect of enhancing their progeny’s intelligence by one standard deviation…

Ribozyme
What standad deviation would you use?

Bell shaped curves, standard deviation, before you answer let me remind you a good process engineer knows a dozen standard deviations of any individual process. I am sure you know that. Would you use the infant level, elementary school level, high school, adult level? Would you correct it for age, and education? Will it have a skew correction?

 

[ribozyme]

Ribozyme
What standad deviation would you use?

Bell shaped curves, standard deviation, before you answer let me remind you a good process engineer knows a dozen standard deviations of any individual process. I am sure you know that. Would you use the infant level, elementary school level, high school, adult level? Would you correct it for age, and education? Will it have a skew correction?

From my OP:

In Eugenics, Lynn argues embryo selection as a form of standard reproductive therapy would raise the average intelligence of the population by 15 IQ points in a single generation (p. 300). If couples produce a hundred embryos, he argues, the range in potential IQ would be around 15 points above and below the parents’ IQ. Lynn argues this gain could be repeated each generation, eventually stabilizing the population’s IQ at a theoretical maximum of around 200 after as little as six or seven generations.

Ask yourself what is “IQ” first?

By definition, an IQ test’s mean (median, and mode) is 100 and the standard deviation is 15. (Thus it is an ordinal scale). Different tests might use a different standard deviation, but this practice (using a 15 point standard deviation) was first adopted by David Wechsler. Of course, the test was normed using a sample from a “white” population (usually from Great Britain or the United States).

When I read IQ scores from the professional literature, I use the 15 point standard deviation assumption.

I hope you know why it is an oxymoron to say “raising everyone’s IQ to 200”.

To answer your other questions, I think that little children will not be administered the WAIS, but the WISC instead so that answers your question regarding age.

 

[Larry1700]

Since I just watched hours of Japanese Yu-Gi-Oh!, I’ll respond in the manner of Seto Kaiba (he believes that magic and the supernatural is simply superstition), I think the notion of transubstantiation is substition and religion is a crutch for those who need emotional comfort.

I know you’re too smart for this, but your statement makes it sound like you’re forming your philosophy of life from cartoons.

 

[ribozyme]

I know you’re too smart for this, but your statement makes it sound like you’re forming your philosophy of life from cartoons.

The reference to Seto Kaiba was to make it somewhat humorous.

No, on earlier post in this message board, I based my opinions on religion from my examination of the scientific literature (Namely I thank Robert Shapiro and Gerald Joyce). (This was before I was engrossed with eugenics, intelligence, and race).

In summary, I not only wanted an answer to the enigma of the origin of life, but I also wanted to satisfy my personal desire when I decided to pursue Catholicism. However, this was not my initial intention, as I was merely a curious student initially, and I initially did not intend to use science to satisfy my emotional needs. I then decided to read Shapiro’s book to get an in-depth technical review for the origin of life as I have previously read his cytosine paper and I perceived it a masterpiece as it showed he went above and beyond (he is a chemist and he delved into geology literature). I was disappointed with Shapiro’s book with this facet (it was an excellent layman summary of various origin of life hypothesis nevertheless), but Shapiro’s book did not disappoint me. His book has granted me an appreciation of proper science, in contrast to dogma. Also, and most importantly, that book made me realized my sins: I was using science to satisfy my emotional needs, and I have departed from my original intention: to search for truth. Because of this epiphany, I was now aware of my initial reason of why I doubted the existence of the Christian God: the problem of evil. I have subconsciously tried circumventing this by trying to convince myself that life was too complex to form by “prebiotic chemistry” thus requiring the action of an intelligent designer. After reading that book, I could not imagine myself worshipping the Christian God, which was a mortal blow to my nascent faith. I told Professor Shapiro in an e-mail correspondence this and I thanked him for writing Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth as that book gave me an appreciation for skepticism. I also perceive Professor Shapiro as some sort of hero because of his impact in my life.

iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=163978

Again, topic in this thread is not science vs. religion, although I do think they do not mix well.