I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Usagi]

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

The sacraments are outward signs by which we are incorporated into the Church, spiritually nourished for our ongoing sanctification, and given appropriate graces at key moments of our lives. They are aids on the journey, most certainly, but they are not the source of our salvation, even in “the Roman Catholic gospel” (which is Jesus’ and Paul’s and the Bible’s gospel).

I haven’t time to go through Paul’s letters right now (I’m at work, and probably shouldn’t even be posting this), but I’ll see what I can do for you later. Just wanted to point out that your take on “the Roman Catholic gospel” is … off.

Usagi

 

[Reformed]

My handy dandy Greek Dictionary says the “the gospel” tranlates into meaning “The Good Message”.

Paul later talks about his submission to God’s call that he is “determined not to know any thing among; you, save Jesus Christ, and him Crucified” (1 Cor. 2:2) and then in 1 Cor. 9:16

“For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!”

This to me means Paul’s message of the “gospel” is the good message of God’s grace by sending us Jesus Christ; that he was crucified that we might be reconciled to our Heavenly Father and have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (The words of Christ)
(John 3:16)

Excellent and thank you! Paul gets deeper into the gospel. Have you considered the heart of the gospel in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4?

 

[Reformed]

The sacraments are outward signs by which we are incorporated into the Church, spiritually nourished for our ongoing sanctification, and given appropriate graces at key moments of our lives. They are aids on the journey, most certainly, but they are not the source of our salvation, even in “the Roman Catholic gospel” (which is Jesus’ and Paul’s and the Bible’s gospel).

I haven’t time to go through Paul’s letters right now (I’m at work, and probably shouldn’t even be posting this), but I’ll see what I can do for you later. Just wanted to point out that your take on “the Roman Catholic gospel” is … off.

Usagi

Thank you for your post! It should be fun for you to see how Paul uses the sacraments in HIs gospel. I think Paul seperates the gospel from the sacraments too. Here is a verse to ponder at work.

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

 

[Kscrawler]

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments.

I’ts clearer to me now. There isn’t any discrepancy between Paul and the RC. But there is a misunderstanding on your part about what the Catholic church believes. As others on here have said Paul is only a part of the the Gospel, and by the way there is no such thing as a RC Gospel. The church and Paul have no disagreement.

In fact here is a link to a web site that can get you started. thepaulpage.com/ There you will find Protestant scholars rediscovering the truth of what we’ve been saying. Good luck, you seem sincere, if you are, you are about to start a journey that may change your life.

 

[Nickkname]

Thanks for the information. However, what you have posted may or may not be supported by Holy Scriptures specifically within the Epistles of the Apostle Paul (1/2 of the New Testament). We can all explain away our beliefs outside of the Scriptures. LDS Christians are very good at doing this. However, when I confront LDS Christians with the letters of Paul, there is nothing they can say. LDS Christians as you know, believe the Bible cannot be trusted. The difference here is that we (Protestants and Roman Catholics) believe the Bible to be God-breathed.

Actually everything I wrote is supported by history and by Scripture.

Now if you want to contest my claims or see whether I am right or not, than do the research.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’m not going to make it that easy for you. With the exception of the Book of Romans, the other Pauline Epistles are quite short. Do you at least agree that the Protestant Reformers broke from the Roman Church since they believed in another gospel grounded in Scripture alone? Does that imply that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent on Sacred Tradition to support the gospel proclaimed by Rome? Here is the apparent contrasting theme:

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s why we are on this thread.

Once again, it is the Catholic Church. Catholic. Catholic. Catholic. Quit dissin’ my Eastern Catholic brethren who hold to the same Catholic Faith that Jesus gave us, which His Apostles (even and especially Paul) preached. It’s very impolite not to mention inaccurate.

St Paul on baptism: 1 Corinthians 12:13 For through the baptism of the one Spirit we were all formed into one body, Jews or Greeks, servants or free men, and were all made full of the same Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12 in Him ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

St Paul on confession:
2 Corinthians 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

St Paul on Holy Communion:

1 Corinthians 11:23-29 For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread; 24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me, 25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord`s death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat the bread or drink the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh in an unworthy manner, eateth and drinketh judgment unto himself, if he discern not the body.

The Catholic Church does teach that God (not the priest, nor the Church) gives us grace through the Sacraments, but we also believe that God is not bound to the Sacraments and gives grace in countless other ways as well. It is Jesus Christ who does the working through the Sacraments of His Church.

 

[Reformed]

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments.

I’ts clearer to me now. There isn’t any discrepancy between Paul and the RC. But there is a misunderstanding on your part about what the Catholic church believes. As others on here have said Paul is only a part of the the Gospel, and by the way there is no such thing as a RC Gospel. The church and Paul have no disagreement.

In fact here is a link to a web site that can get you started. thepaulpage.com/ There you will find Protestant scholars rediscovering the truth of what we’ve been saying. Good luck, you seem sincere, if you are, you are about to start a journey that may change your life.

I wanted to stay within the writings of Paul. Are you saying half of the New Testament books (Paul’s letter) refutes the Roman Catholic way of salvation? We can discuss the other 1/2 of the New Testament on another thread. Let’s see if others conclude as you apparently have. It’s funny that the typical Catholic response to Scripture is apologetics work by ex-Protestant converts. Why seek the wisdom of men if we have divine revelation from God?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I’m not going to make it that easy for you. With the exception of the Book of Romans, the other Pauline Epistles are quite short. Do you at least agree that the Protestant Reformers broke from the Roman Church since they believed in another gospel grounded in Scripture alone? Does that imply that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent on Sacred Tradition to support the gospel proclaimed by Rome? Here is the apparent contrasting theme:

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s why we are on this thread.

 

[Thing]

I’m not going to make it that easy for you. With the exception of the Book of Romans, the other Pauline Epistles are quite short. Do you at least agree that the Protestant Reformers broke from the Roman Church since they believed in another gospel grounded in Scripture alone? Does that imply that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent on Sacred Tradition to support the gospel proclaimed by Rome? Here is the apparent contrasting theme:

The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments. This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s why we are on this thread.

I was confused about who wrote the highlighted part so I found it in its original post.
Continue.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thanks for posting Paul and following the theme of the thread. Although you quoted Paul, I’m not sure this is part of the proclamation of Paul’s gospel. Maybe you can help explain what you posted in regards to the gospel of God’s grace according to Paul?

In other words, what I’ve posted from Scripture isn’t clear all by itself? You need a teacher/commentary to help you understand it? Or is it that what I posted flies in the face of your anti-Biblical doctrine of Sola Fide?

We are saved because of Grace.
We have faith to believe in Christ because of Grace.
We do good works because of Grace.
We are obedient to God’s commands because of Grace.
We are able to persevere because of Grace.

It really is all about Grace. God’s Grace. Without which no one can hope to be saved.

 

[believers]

Catholics (ALL Catholics, not just Latin-Rite aka Roman Catholics) profess that Christ died for our sins every time Mass is celebrated. Did you think I was unaware that Christ died for our sins?

Are you aware that Jesus paid the price (redeemed/forgiven us) of Adam’s disobedience with His own blood on the cross? (that’s Grace) AND that this price is ONLY received through FAITH ALONE in the work of Jesus on the cross. It is this absolute faith in Jesus’ work on the cross that washes us from what the RCC calls “original” sin. After we are washed in the blood through FAITH ALONE… followers of Christ are called to repentance.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Are you aware that Jesus paid the price (redeemed/forgiven us) of Adam’s disobedience with His own blood on the cross? (that’s Grace) AND that this price is ONLY received through FAITH ALONE in the work of Jesus on the cross. It is this absolute faith in Jesus’ work on the cross that washes us from what the RCC calls “original” sin. After we are washed in the blood through FAITH ALONE… followers of Christ are called to repentance.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Not sure if you realize this, but I used to be an independent, fundamental, KJV Baptist. I know all the verses specially selected to support “faith alone.” Are you aware that the only time the words “faith alone” appear in Scripture are when it is soundly condemned?

 

[Thing]

Are you aware that Jesus paid the price of Adam’s disobedience with His own blood on the cross?

That is the mass. The very same sacrifice on the cross. His sacrifice extends throughout all time; Take ye, and eat. This is my body. 27 And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I’m not going to make it that easy for you. With the exception of the Book of Romans, the other Pauline Epistles are quite short. Do you at least agree that the Protestant Reformers broke from the Roman Church since they believed in another gospel grounded in Scripture alone? Does that imply that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent on Sacred Tradition to support the gospel proclaimed by Rome?

Yes, the reformers took the books of the bible and rejected Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church. They interpreted them in a novel way rather than within the context of the faith handed down from the apostles.

Here is the apparent contrasting theme:
The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments.

This statement doesn’t make sense to a Catholic. The sacrament of Baptism, for instance, imparts Sanctifying Grace (a share in God’s life) to the soul. But it is preceded by the Actual Grace (an impulse to do God’s will) of conversion. Both types of grace are God’s free gift. We grow in Sanctifying Grace or holiness in many ways, but the sacraments are great aids to this.

This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

The fact that Paul doesn’t often refer to the sacraments doesn’t equate to a rejection of them.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s why we are on this thread.

It will be interesting to look for indications of the sacraments in Paul’s writings.

 

[believers]

Not sure if you realize this, but I used to be an independent, fundamental, KJV Baptist. I know all the verses specially selected to support “faith alone.” Are you aware that the only time the words “faith alone” appear in Scripture are when it is soundly condemned?

I am NOT ashamed of the TRUE gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

I will ALWAYS preach the true gospel of Christ found ONLY in the Word of God. Through FAITH ALONE in Christ’s work on the cross… repentance.

 

[believers]

I’m not going to make it that easy for you. With the exception of the Book of Romans, the other Pauline Epistles are quite short. Do you at least agree that the Protestant Reformers broke from the Roman Church since they believed in another gospel grounded in Scripture alone? Does that imply that the Roman Catholic gospel is dependent on Sacred Tradition to support the gospel proclaimed by Rome?

Yes, the reformers took the books of the bible and rejected Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church. They interpreted them in a novel way rather than within the context of the faith handed down from the apostles.

Here is the apparent contrasting theme:
The Roman Catholic gospel is dispensed by the Roman Catholic Church through the many Roman Catholic sacraments.

This statement doesn’t make sense to a Catholic. The sacrament of Baptism, for instance, imparts Sanctifying Grace (a share in God’s life) to the soul. But it is preceded by the Actual Grace (an impulse to do God’s will) of conversion. Both types of grace are God’s free gift. We grow in Sanctifying Grace or holiness in many ways, but the sacraments are great aids to this.

This sacramental way of salvation is different than Paul’s gospel.

The fact that Paul doesn’t often refer to the sacraments doesn’t equate to a rejection of them.

I think you will find Paul does not support salvation through the Catholic Sacraments. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s why we are on this thread.

It will be interesting to look for indications of the sacraments in Paul’s writings.

The Gospel to the gentiles was committed to Paul… (that means he’s our appointed apostle unless you are Jewish) is by FAITH ALONE. Romans is a good place for you to start reading/study… aptly named the book of “Romans”

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I am NOT ashamed of the TRUE gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.

I will ALWAYS preach the true gospel of Christ found ONLY in the Word of God. Through FAITH ALONE in Christ’s work on the cross… repentance.

If repentance follows faith, then faith isn’t alone. If faith is void of works, it is a dead faith. The only way we can begin to have faith is by the grace of God, which also brings us to repentance and to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk therein. (Eph 2:10)

 

[believers]

Not sure if you realize this, but I used to be an independent, fundamental, KJV Baptist. I know all the verses specially selected to support “faith alone.” Are you aware that the only time the words “faith alone” appear in Scripture are when it is soundly condemned?

I’m absolutely not impressed that you were a fundamental KJV Baptist. Just because you attended doesn’t mean you were born-again. You missed the whole born-again thing. You basically attended gatherings of Christ’s called out people. You were in the same building… you read the same Word of God. I highly recommend that you believe and APPLY God’s Word and be saved through FAITH ALONE in Christ’s work on the cross. It’s the ONLY way.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’m absolutely not impressed that you were a fundamental KJV Baptist. Just because you attended doesn’t mean you were born-again. You missed the whole born-again thing.

How do you know this? Are you able to see through the Internet and see my soul’s condition?

You basically attended gatherings of Christ’s called out people. You were in the same building… you read the same Word of God.

Yes, I read and studied the Word of God, and I found that certain passages were ignored or explained away because they contradicted Baptist doctrine.

I highly recommend that you believe and APPLY God’s word and be saved through FAITH ALONE.

But God’s Word doesn’t say that I’m saved by faith alone.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Reformed,
Please give your definition of grace. Or, in other words, your understanding of what Paul means when he uses that term. That would help in where this discussion is going.