i am presbyterian i want to convert ..

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Heaven forbid I ever “sin boldly”. This is willful disobediance against God. Putting a person in mortal sin and loss of Faith. And we know where that leads.
God said if you love me you’ll obey my commandments. One can only conclude that if one sins boldly it is because they love themselves alittle too much and are blinded from the Truth.
Yes, God did say that if we love Him we would obey his commandments. So I’m not sure why Luther said what he did, even if it was hyperbolic speech, it was wrong, and unbiblical. We can and do achieve righteousness (from within) as opposed to just being the snow-covered dung hill (the snow representing Christ’s righteousness, and the dung hill being us) that Luther proposed/stated. God bless Jam.
 
Yes, God did say that if we love Him we would obey his commandments. So I’m not sure why Luther said what he did, even if it was hyperbolic speech, it was wrong, and unbiblical. We can and do achieve righteousness (from within) as opposed to just being the snow-covered dung hill (the snow representing Christ’s righteousness, and the dung hill being us) that Luther proposed/stated. God bless Jam.
well it’s not to say many Catholic saints weren’t predisposed to hyperbolic speech that was certainly unbiblical (shall I start quoting men like John Chrysostom … or shall we simply agree that sometimes people don’t articulate what they mean in the smartest way possible)?
 
well … of course Luther also said things like “we are not called to a life of ease, but to a struggle against our passions.” So I disagree with your assessment of Luther’s famous maxim “sin boldly” (you’re not looking deep enough into Luther’s words, but rather your just skimming the surface enough for your own purposes, which is to discredit him).
I don’t have to discredit him, he’s done that for himself.

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

“The imputation of righteousness we need very much, because we are far from perfect. As long as we have this body, sin will dwell in our flesh. Then, too, we sometimes drive away the holy spirit; we fall into sin, like Peter, David, and other holy men. Nevertheless we may always take recourse to this fact, that our sins are covered, and that God will not lay them to our charge. Sin is not held against us for Christ’s sake.”
 
well it’s not to say many Catholic saints weren’t predisposed to hyperbolic speech that was certainly unbiblical (shall I start quoting men like John Chrysostom … or shall we simply agree that sometimes people don’t articulate what they mean in the smartest way possible)?
The snow-covered dung hill was not hyperbolic speech, he truly believed that the only righteousness that we can attain to is the righteousness that was imputed to us through Christ. This is much different than what the CC teaches in that we are “imparted” with righteousness, that is, we can be or rather we ought to be righteous from within (we achieve this through grace).

P.S. I’m going to have to leave now, I’m going out to do some needed alterations for a dress. Talk to you guys later. God bless.
 
The snow-covered dung hill was not hyperbolic speech, he truly believed that the only righteousness that we can attain to is the righteousness that was imputed to us through Christ. This is much different than what the CC teaches in that we are “imparted” with righteousness, that is, we can be or rather we ought to be righteous from within (we achieve this through grace).

P.S. I’m going to have to leave now, I’m going out to do some needed alterations for a dress. Talk to you guys later. God bless.
the “snow covered dunghill” comment was probably because Luther was disgusted at the moral decadence of Rome when he visited there. Luther was personally a holy roller (though he didn’t find any problem with the institution of marriage as applied to the clergy). He was also somewhat of a freedom fighter by nature, and prone to hyperbolic statements.

I’m sure his constant fights with Catholics (after he initiated the reformation) dug him into an exceedingly aggressive stance against the church. Like in any war as the fight rolls on any army or military leader becomes more aggressive in their tactics. There’s only two ways wars are won … either with diplomacy or defeating the other army (by killing them in such a brutal fashion that they lose their will to fight).

Diplomacy, however, requires concession (and the idea that both parties win). The Catholic reaction to Luther’s complaints were hardly diplomatic or conciliatory. Rather the response was aggressive, which only drew an exceedingly aggressive response by the reformers. This is human nature whether you guys admit it to yourselves or not!
 
I don’t have to discredit him, he’s done that for himself.
However, still the same true Catholics (and when I say “true” I don’t mean those who have merely been baptized and confirmed as Catholics, I mean those who go to church on at least a somewhat frequent basis, believe in most Catholic teachings, etc.) are now outnumbered by protestants (particularly Pentecostals, who as far as “true believers” go are now the single largest Christian denomination in the world, and growing far faster than any other religion in the world … including Islam).

In fact Catholicism is a shrinking religion by any reasonable standard. It’s being killed by its own arrogance (as you’re displaying here) and of course (like all religion) the encroachment of secular society; and ultimately it will either change or die.

All your aggressive stance against protestants will do is quicken the death of your own religion. If you fail to take a diplomatic and conciliatory stance you become exceedingly dug into an aggressive stance of opposition and infighting (and you guys are losing more and more ground every day). I heard a statistic that said Brazil within the near future will be a majority protestant country. Brazil … imagine?

You obviously don’t win hearts and minds with harsh rhetoric, particularly in an area like religion (which in the western world requires voluntary assent).
 
However, still the same true Catholics (and when I say “true” I don’t mean those who have merely been baptized and confirmed as Catholics, I mean those who go to church on at least a somewhat frequent basis, believe in most Catholic teachings, etc.) are now outnumbered by protestants (particularly Pentecostals, who as far as “true believers” go are now the single largest Christian denomination in the world, and growing far faster than any other religion in the world … including Islam).

In fact Catholicism is a shrinking religion by any reasonable standard. It’s being killed by its own arrogance (as you’re displaying here) and of course (like all religion) the encroachment of secular society; and ultimately it will either change or die.

All your aggressive stance against protestants will do is quicken the death of your own religion. If you fail to take a diplomatic and conciliatory stance you become exceedingly dug into an aggressive stance of opposition and infighting (and you guys are losing more and more ground every day). I heard a statistic that said Brazil within the near future will be a majority protestant country. Brazil … imagine?

You obviously don’t win hearts and minds with harsh rhetoric, particularly in an area like religion (which in the western world requires voluntary assent).
I have only these words to say to you (inspired by the French revolutionaries):

Vivre l’Eglise Catholique!!! 😃
 
I have only these words to say to you (taken from the French revolutionaries):

Vivre l’Eglise Catholique!!! 😃
and look at the French today? Need I say more! I’m humming the tune Yankee Doodle Dandy in my brain right now 🙂
 
However, still the same true Catholics (and when I say “true” I don’t mean those who have merely been baptized and confirmed as Catholics, I mean those who go to church on at least a somewhat frequent basis, believe in most Catholic teachings, etc.) are now outnumbered by protestants (particularly Pentecostals, who as far as “true believers” go are now the single largest Christian denomination in the world, and growing far faster than any other religion in the world … including Islam).

In fact Catholicism is a shrinking religion by any reasonable standard. It’s being killed by its own arrogance (as you’re displaying here) and of course (like all religion) the encroachment of secular society; and ultimately it will either change or die.

All your aggressive stance against protestants will do is quicken the death of your own religion. If you fail to take a diplomatic and conciliatory stance you become exceedingly dug into an aggressive stance of opposition and infighting (and you guys are losing more and more ground every day). I heard a statistic that said Brazil within the near future will be a majority protestant country. Brazil … imagine?

You obviously don’t win hearts and minds with harsh rhetoric, particularly in an area like religion (which in the western world requires voluntary assent).
Keep in mind, Jesus said the path is narrow.

The reason Prots are growing is because they teach an easy (albeit false) (prosperity) gospel and pray on emotion, while pushing an entertainment type “worship”.

I don’t believe it’s because of harsh rhetoric but of lukewarmness on Catholic’s part to live out the Faith. Like you pointed out, a lack of true Catholics.
 
Keep in mind, Jesus said the path is narrow.

The reason Prots are growing is because they teach an easy (albeit false) (prosperity) gospel and pray on emotion, while pushing an entertainment type “worship”.

I don’t believe it’s because of harsh rhetoric but of lukewarmness on Catholic’s part to live out the Faith.
I don’t know about all that … but that is the mantra. I would say statistically speaking the biggest factors that influence things like disposition toward deviant behavior, divorce, etc. is education level and annual income (versus religious affiliation).

However, Pentecostals aren’t exclusively the purveyors of the prosperity gospel (though I suppose some are). Pentecostalism grew out of the Wesleyan holiness movement (and it holds to the doctrine of “entire sanctification” also know as “Christian perfection”).

So overall I would disagree with your assessment. The fastest growing elements within protestantism preaches a very dogmatic brand of theology (and can hardly be said to teach anything resembling “it’s OK to sin”). In fact much to the contrary.

Within protestantism it is often cited that Baptists and other evangelicals are the most likely to divorce. However, the actual truth is those from the deep, poor, and rural south are the most likely to divorce (and not Baptists per se, even though folks in those places are more likely to be Baptist). In fact northern Baptists (who are more educated and affluent) are no more likely to divorce than their Catholic or even atheist counterparts. So the nexus you’re trying to draw between Catholicism and holiness is fallacious.

Herein lies the problem that rears its head in these religious debates … the truth winds up getting drowned.
 
Good Fella:

well thought out post (you certainly gave me some homework). I do apologize but I had to cut out some of your post due to character limits. I do, however, understand your position, it’s certainly a common tool of apologetics to elude to our conscience. However, with regard to the lion … how much better were our cave men ancestors? I suspect not much.

I think what separates us from lower creatures is intelligence, which by and large is due to brain size (and this is a general rule applicable to all creatures). The only real intangible isn’t whether or not we had the intellectual capacity to form a conscience, but rather emotion (which is also common to many mammals).

Lewis’ logic seems adequate on its face … but upon deeper reflection I came to reject it. Paul would say evidence of god is evident by observing his creation (i.e. nature and the universe) … I’m paraphrasing of course; but I just don’t see it that way. If we want to use that mode of logic (which frankly I don’t think is a valid way to answer the ultimate question … does god exist) then why not also look at how difficult it is to harmonize biblical revelation with reality (and this doesn’t even begin to look at its internal inconsistencies).

I explained why I feel as I do earlier (I won’t rehash that stuff); but please know that I have considered the line of reasoning you’re presenting here. It’s not illogical to think as you do … I just don’t believe it’s the “most” logical way of thinking. Not that I claim a monopoly on logic, but I do firmly believe in this area I’m right. I can’t explain everything, nor am I dim witted enough to try. I just know the preponderance of the evidence weighs against religion.

Oh btw I think it’s cool that you find value in C.S. Lewis (who was a protestant … or Anglican to be more precise). There’s quite a few protestants and Catholics on this site who seem very narrow minded to me. It’s good to know there’s at least a few who aren’t.
Cool. :cool:

It’ll take my prayers and the grace of God to bring you back home - not logic, brother.
Out of respect for the OP: “Adios amigo!”
 
I don’t know about all that … but that is the mantra. I would say statistically speaking the biggest factors that influence things like disposition toward deviant behavior, divorce, etc. is education level and annual income (versus religious affiliation).

However, Pentecostals aren’t exclusively the purveyors of the prosperity gospel (though I suppose some are). Pentecostalism grew out of the Wesleyan holiness movement (and it holds to the doctrine of “entire sanctification” also know as “Christian perfection”).

So overall I would disagree with your assessment. The fastest growing elements within protestantism preaches a very dogmatic brand of theology (and can hardly be said to teach anything resembling “it’s OK to sin”). In fact much to the contrary.

Within protestantism it is often cited that Baptists and other evangelicals are the most likely to divorce. However, the actual truth is those from the deep, poor, and rural south are the most likely to divorce (and not Baptists per se, even though folks in those places are more likely to be Baptist). In fact northern Baptists (who are more educated and affluent) are no more likely to divorce than their Catholic or even atheist counterparts. So the nexus you’re trying to claim between Catholicism and holiness is fallacious.
Cmon, you’re smarter and more honest then that.
You know that Evangelical sects, including Pentacostalism, teaches that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and you’re on your way to Heaven.

Poor catechesis is also a major factor. Many Catholics nowadays don’t know their Faith and get sucked in when that meet Evangelicals that preach misconceptions about the Catholic Faith.
Which is easier, to live out the life as a Catholic, or just claim, yeah I believe in Jesus?..boom… done. Nothing else needed. 🤷
 
Cmon, you’re smarter and more honest then that.
You know that Evangelical sects, including Pentacostalism, teaches that all one has to do is believe in Jesus and you’re on your way to Heaven.

Poor catechesis is also a major factor. Many Catholics nowadays don’t know their Faith and get sucked in when that meet Evangelicals that preach misconceptions about the Catholic Faith.
Which is easier, to live out the life as a Catholic, or just claim, yeah I believe in Jesus?..boom… done. Nothing else needed. 🤷
Here’s a section taken from the Wiki entry for Pentecostalism:

*Pentecostal theology was shaped by the movements it grew out of: Wesleyan Holiness and Higher Life. Participants in these movements believed that after one’s conversion experience (the “first blessing”) there was a “crisis experience of sanctification” or the “second blessing”.[6] Wesleyan Holiness preachers taught that this experience would immediately eliminate sin in a Christian’s life, resulting in “sinless perfection.” Higher Life Christians shared this belief in a second blessing, but understood it differently. They saw it not as the total elimination of sin, but as “'full consecration’ that empowered them for evangelism.” Early Pentecostals, therefore, understood baptism in the Holy Spirit as this “second blessing” and speaking in tongues as its physical evidence.[6] The Wesleyan-Holiness orientation was the universal position in the early days of Pentecostalism espousing a three-fold process of conversion, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit.[citation needed] *

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

This is a pretty accurate synopsis of the Pentecostal faith (although there are various branches of Pentecostalism these days). If you read the numbers cited by the Wiki article they’re actually pretty conservative (I’ve seen much higher, upper end numbers cited, particularly in Africa … but there’s also a strong emerging Pentecostal movement in Latin America).

So I would say you’re blanket treatment of the evangelical movement is inaccurate (at least insofar as you think all evangelicals adhere to OSAS as you’re presenting it). Moreover, the evangelical movement is so dynamic it’s hard to define it in hard terms. What might have been true ten years ago is probably not true today, or at least less true today (while their movement has morphed into something else entirely). It’s like an evolving insurgency. You gear yourself to fight insurgents by creating defenses for tactics they’ve been using against you, but since an insurgency is generally very flexible they simply invent new tactics to counter your own counter-insurgency efforts.

In the end you wind up discovering that only diplomacy that truly wins hearts and minds will work.
 
Here’s a section taken from the Wiki entry for Pentecostalism:

Pentecostal theology was shaped by the movements it grew out of: Wesleyan Holiness and Higher Life. Participants in these movements believed that after one’s conversion experience (the “first blessing”) there was a “crisis experience of sanctification” or the “second blessing”.[6] Wesleyan Holiness preachers taught that this experience would immediately eliminate sin in a Christian’s life, resulting in “sinless perfection.” Higher Life Christians shared this belief in a second blessing, but understood it differently. They saw it not as the total elimination of sin, but as “'full consecration’ that empowered them for evangelism.” Early Pentecostals, therefore, understood baptism in the Holy Spirit as this “second blessing” and speaking in tongues as its physical evidence.[6] The Wesleyan-Holiness orientation was the universal position in the early days of Pentecostalism espousing a three-fold process of conversion, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit.[citation needed]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism
Does all this happen after excepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?
Can one lose their salvation in Penetecostal teaching?
 
Does all this happen after excepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?
Can one lose their salvation in Penetecostal teaching?
Yes they can … at least the Wesleyan variants of Pentecostalism (which historically is the roots of the Pentecostal faith). Remember John Wesley was the founder of the Methodist church (who are not associated with Pentecostals today, even though they share “Arminian” soteriology).

Arminians believe as Catholics do, which is that salvation can be lost (and is only gained in the first place by freely accepting the universally imputed prevenient grace of god). There is, however, a hybrid of Arminian soteriology that has dominated evangelical circles (which preaches free acceptance of grace, as Arminians do, but also OSAS … a variant of the reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints). Some Pentecostals do buy into this concept … but not all (and I don’t even think a majority).
 
Yes they can … at least the Wesleyan variants of Pentecostalism (which historically is the roots of the Pentecostal faith). Remember John Wesley was the founder of the Methodist church (who are not associated with Pentecostals today, even though they share “Arminian” soteriology).

Arminians believe as Catholics do, which is that salvation can be lost (and is only gained in the first place by freely accepting the universally imputed prevenient grace of god). There is, however, a hybrid of Arminian soteriology that has dominated evangelical circles (which preaches free acceptance of grace, as Arminians do, but also OSAS … a variant of the reformed doctrine of perseverance of the saints). Some Pentecostals do buy into this concept … but not all (and I don’t even think a majority).
I’ll be honest, there are so many protestant sects that I can’t keep up.
Where did you aquire the info that Pentecostalism is the fasting growing? Not questioning you, per se, just find this fascinating and I would genuinely like to see the break down.
 
I’ll be honest, there are so many protestant sects that I can’t keep up.
Where did you aquire the info that Pentecostalism is the fasting growing? Not questioning you, per se, just find this fascinating and I would genuinely like to see the break down.
I’ve read it from various sources … but here’s a few I found with a quick Google search:

foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3835

Here’s another portion of a Wiki entry:

From the period between 2000 and 2005, Pentecostalism experienced a global growth rate of 488% expanding from 115 million to 588.5 million[7] global adherents. This classes Pentecostalism as the fastest growing religion world wide.[8]

The article this is taken from is actually pretty good (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion). It discusses the unreliability of “claimed numbers” (although the numbers for Pentecostals seems pretty reliable).

It seems, in reality though, the fastest growing trend is secularism.
 
I’ve read it from various sources … but here’s a few I found with a quick Google search:

foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3835

Here’s another portion of a Wiki entry:

From the period between 2000 and 2005, Pentecostalism experienced a global growth rate of 488% expanding from 115 million to 588.5 million[7] global adherents. This classes Pentecostalism as the fastest growing religion world wide.[8]

The article this is taken from is actually pretty good (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion). It discusses the unreliability of “claimed numbers” (although the numbers for Pentecostals seems pretty reliable).

It seems, in reality though, the fastest growing trend is secularism.
Thanks. Interesting.
 
the “snow covered dunghill” comment was probably because Luther was disgusted at the moral decadence of Rome when he visited there. Luther was personally a holy roller (though he didn’t find any problem with the institution of marriage as applied to the clergy). He was also somewhat of a freedom fighter by nature, and prone to hyperbolic statements.

I’m sure his constant fights with Catholics (after he initiated the reformation) dug him into an exceedingly aggressive stance against the church. Like in any war as the fight rolls on any army or military leader becomes more aggressive in their tactics. There’s only two ways wars are won … either with diplomacy or defeating the other army (by killing them in such a brutal fashion that they lose their will to fight).

Diplomacy, however, requires concession (and the idea that both parties win). The Catholic reaction to Luther’s complaints were hardly diplomatic or conciliatory. Rather the response was aggressive, which only drew an exceedingly aggressive response by the reformers. This is human nature whether you guys admit it to yourselves or not!
Well, if the Catholic reaction was “hardly diplomatic or conciliatory” at times, it was because his views were heretical. So yes, there may have been some anger on the part of some Church members. But if recollection serves me right, the Catholic Church had given several chances for Luther to debate and dialogue his views with other Church members. This was done, as a way for the CC, to show Luther he was in error. He was excommunicated after several unsuccessful attempts by the Church to get Luther to recant his heretical views.

And the whole snow-covered dung hill analogy was not inspired by the wickedness he had seen in Rome, but rather his own scrupulosity:

"Like every victim of scrupulosity, he saw nothing in himself but wickedness and corruption. God was the minister of wrath and vengeance. His sorrow for sin was devoid of humble charity and childlike confidence in the pardoning mercy of God and Jesus Christ.

This anger of God, which pursued him like his shadow, could only be averted by “his own righteousness”, by the “efficacy of servile works”. Such an attitude of mind was necessarily followed by hopeless discouragement and sullen despondency, creating a condition of soul in which he actually “hated God and was angry at him”, blasphemed God, and deplored that he was ever born. This abnormal condition produced a brooding melancholy, physical, mental, and spiritual depression, which later, by a strange process of reasoning, he ascribed to the teaching of the Church concerning good works, while all the time he was living in direct and absolute opposition to its doctrinal teaching and disciplinary code.

Of course this self-willed positiveness and hypochondriac asceticism, as usually happens in cases of morbidly scrupulous natures, found no relief in the sacraments. His general confessions at Erfurt and Rome did not touch the root of the evil. His whole being was wrought up to such an acute tension that he actually regretted his parents were not dead, that he might avail himself of the facilities Rome afforded to save them from purgatory. For religion’s sake he was ready to become “the most brutal murderer”, “to kill all who even by syllable refused submission to the pope” (Sämmtliche Werke, XXXX, Erlangen, 284). Such a tense and neurotic physical condition demanded a reaction, and, as frequently occurs in analogous cases, it went to the diametric extreme.

The undue importance he had placed on his own strength in the spiritual process of justification, he now peremptorily and completely rejected. He convinced himself that man, as a consequence of original sin, was totally depraved, destitute of free will, that all works, even though directed towards the good, were nothing more than an outgrowth of his corrupted will, and in the judgments of God in reality mortal sins. Man can be saved by faith alone. Our faith in Christ makes His merits our possession, envelops us in the garb of righteousness, which our guilt and sinfulness hide, and supplies in abundance every defect of human righteousness."

newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm
 
However, still the same true Catholics (and when I say “true” I don’t mean those who have merely been baptized and confirmed as Catholics, I mean those who go to church on at least a somewhat frequent basis, believe in most Catholic teachings, etc.) are now outnumbered by protestants (particularly Pentecostals, who as far as “true believers” go are now the single largest Christian denomination in the world, and growing far faster than any other religion in the world … including Islam).

In fact Catholicism is a shrinking religion by any reasonable standard. It’s being killed by its own arrogance (as you’re displaying here) and of course (like all religion) the encroachment of secular society; and ultimately it will either change or die.

**All your aggressive stance ** against protestants will do is quicken the death of your own religion. **If you fail to take a diplomatic and conciliatory stance you become exceedingly dug into an aggressive stance ** of opposition and infighting (and you guys are losing more and more ground every day). I heard a statistic that said Brazil within the near future will be a majority protestant country. Brazil … imagine?

You obviously don’t win hearts and minds with harsh rhetoric, particularly in an area like religion (which in the western world requires voluntary assent).
I AM NOT BEING ARROGANT, I AM STATING THE ERROR OF HIS THEOLOGY.

As for my Pentecostal friends let them keep wasting their time converting Catholics, when they should be converting non-Christians, but I guess that would mean they do not view Catholics as Christian. :eek: You know the whole “whore of Babylon” and “anti-christ” bit the CC (which by the way is an insult to all us Catholics) has been branded with (labeled as such by our grandiose Hero of the Reformation, Luther).

Well, that’s the first time I’ve been called a “whore”.
 
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