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srferdave
Guest
If you “know” you must be able to show me some proof. Can you show me some proof?
I don’t believe that you would. Many Jews didn’t believe Jesus was God as he stood right in front of them.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
sure you know. you contradict yourself. one time you say you have doubts another you say you know for sure. which is it? to say that Jesus was never here and He never suffered and died is a blasphemy. i hope you repent soon. an innocent man has died. at least have some compassion.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
oh golly here we go
I never framed my lack of faith as merely a light dose of doubt. You know it’s funny, when you guys run out of arguments you either start inventing stuff or attacking (all that Christian love starts getting hurled in my direction).
As for the charge of blasphemy … religious zealotry is truly unimpressive, but I guess it can have some amusement value. Oh btw I don’t say with any serious conviction that Jesus never existed; I just don’t believe in god. That a man named Jesus existed and had a ministry is recorded by Josephus (notwithstanding the questionable reliability of Josephus, I’m willing to acknowledge it’s somewhat likely his reports were accurate).
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josie_L
Guest
Hmmm … funny I don’t feel very depressed? In fact the “world” ain’t really all that bad. I guess I could buy into fictitious mythology to help allay our natural fear of death & the unknown, but frankly I’d rather base my life on reality. What is the value of false hope anyway?
What is the value of no hope at all?
Religion is fallacy, pure & simple. I’m not going to believe in little bad angels and little good angels who sway me to act one way or the other (and who interestingly seem to elude our most powerful telescopes).
Can you see atoms? Or does it take a special kind of instrument to view what is hidden from sight? Faith is like this, it allows me to see things that cannot be seen .
I’d rather acknowledge that when I screw up … it’s ME screwing up. When I do well, it’s likewise ME doing well.
I likewise attribute my screw ups to myself (who else would I blame), but I always attribute anything good in my life to God. Actually, God is the reason I don’t screw up very often.
The typical response of religion, I’m arrogant, self-centered, and so on … or the “world” is out to get you. The way I see it’s just ancient men who anticipated logical objections to their mythology and set forth a theology that attempts to preempt those objections. I don’t say it was a bad strategy, indeed it was an excellent strategy (psychologically speaking). However, it doesn’t make it anymore true.
Well, those men you refer to died for their faith (I know I keep bringing it up), so I’m not sure how excellent a strategy it necessarily was for them if it was all a lie.
Can you tell me you never had doubt with regard to religion? Every now and then a little sinking feeling, what if it’s all a fairy tale? Will I just wither into dust …
Do you never doubt you may be wrong?
Anything could be true right, but I’m **pretty sure **religion isn’t.
Oh, so then you’re not completely sure, are you?
Every religion has the same mantra, a god who appeared to ancient men, but who for an always profound reason doesn’t show himself today (under any circumstances). Well, if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it’s usually a duck. Don’t kill, well I never had the urge to kill so I didn’t need that one. Honestly, integrity, loyalty, etc. the Army taught me all those things better than any church could. If a soldier molested a child, he would serve life in a harsh prison (that is for as long as he could survive in prison). You guys forgive em’? I don’t necessarily complain about forgiveness, when its warranted (and when a person has actually changed, or at least has the potential for change).
The CC made a very grave mistake with concern to the children who were abused. I don’t think it was the massive cover up (they were told by psychologists that the priest involved were pretty much healed of their pedophilia, only to go on continuing in their perversive ways) you are making it out to be, but yes, things could have been dealt with better and more forthrightly.
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Ross09
Guest
So, humble why are you on CAF? Do you still have questions you want answered or are you here to sow your doubts?oh golly here we go
I never framed my lack of faith as merely a light dose of doubt. You know it’s funny, when you guys run out of arguments you either start inventing stuff or attacking (all that Christian love starts getting hurled in my direction).
As for the charge of blasphemy … religious zealotry is truly unimpressive, but I guess it can have some amusement value. Oh btw I don’t say with any serious conviction that Jesus never existed; I just don’t believe in god. That a man named Jesus existed and had a ministry is recorded by Josephus (notwithstanding the questionable reliability of Josephus, I’m willing to acknowledge it’s somewhat likely his reports were accurate).
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
yes I can … but there’s no convincing religious zealots that religion is fiction …
yeah yeah yeah … if they never believed in mythological fairy tales of spitting oceans apart, canes turning into snakes, rivers turning into blood, and all the rest … humanity would be focused on more productive endeavors (you know … like reality).
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Mark77
Guest
Question everything and do not listen to any man’s opinion!
Humble in doubt said "but beyond that I see no reason to subscribe to any religion when logic and reason tells me none of it is true."
If you study Sacred Scripture, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and still do not believe, then at least your being honest, even if you are wrong!
"None of it is true???" The Church has always taught that all life is Sacred! NOT TRUE???
Jesus did for sinners even though He was without sin, sounds like a good example to me! NOT TRUE???
Do not confuse the sinners in the Church with the Truth of Jesus Christ. The Apostles that Jesus chose and trained denied and betrayed Him, yet HE IS TRUTH!!! NOT TRUE???
**The more “intelligent or intellectual” we are, the easier it is for us to lie to ourselves and to convince ourselves to take the easy way out and avoid facing the difficult Truth. The problem with the law is that it is has no compassion, no love. The law merely decides but does not resolve.
**
Jesus didn’t promise us popularity, He didn’t promise us wealth, fame or comfort. Quite the contrary, He asked us to sacrifice every selfish need to serve others and our reward will be eternal joy with Him In Heaven.
You can legitimately doubt, but at some point you must decide!
Don’t wait until the end of your life when you are asked to account for all that you have done. It is too late then! Even if you are an Atheist and only have to answer to your own conscience, would you be proud to say “i was totally selfish and did nothing to help others”?
i believe we will all stand in front of Jesus one day and have to explain every action we took or did not take!
Will you be proud of how you lived???
We all fall short of the ideal, but we can strive for beauty, for love, for perfection!
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
Humble in doubt said "but beyond that I see no reason to subscribe to any religion when logic and reason tells me none of it is true."
If you study Sacred Scripture, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and still do not believe, then at least your being honest, even if you are wrong!
"None of it is true???" The Church has always taught that all life is Sacred! NOT TRUE???
Jesus did for sinners even though He was without sin, sounds like a good example to me! NOT TRUE???
Do not confuse the sinners in the Church with the Truth of Jesus Christ. The Apostles that Jesus chose and trained denied and betrayed Him, yet HE IS TRUTH!!! NOT TRUE???
**The more “intelligent or intellectual” we are, the easier it is for us to lie to ourselves and to convince ourselves to take the easy way out and avoid facing the difficult Truth. The problem with the law is that it is has no compassion, no love. The law merely decides but does not resolve.
**
Jesus didn’t promise us popularity, He didn’t promise us wealth, fame or comfort. Quite the contrary, He asked us to sacrifice every selfish need to serve others and our reward will be eternal joy with Him In Heaven.
You can legitimately doubt, but at some point you must decide!
Don’t wait until the end of your life when you are asked to account for all that you have done. It is too late then! Even if you are an Atheist and only have to answer to your own conscience, would you be proud to say “i was totally selfish and did nothing to help others”?
i believe we will all stand in front of Jesus one day and have to explain every action we took or did not take!
Will you be proud of how you lived???
We all fall short of the ideal, but we can strive for beauty, for love, for perfection!
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
you guys are like quibbling with lawyers … a term of speech gets twisted into a thesis statement? Let me restate, I’m sure (not merely pretty sure).
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srferdave
Guest
if you can, what will it hurt to try. Show me the proof.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
that’s a red herring argument (and so typical of you guys). You know I didn’t mean to say life isn’t sacred … logical fallacy might sway a 15 year old, but not me.
How can anyone disconnect a church institution from the men who run the thing?
It’s the most absurd argument I’ve ever heard, yet it’s a hallmark of Catholicism.
ahh you’re such a martyr. I bet you think the world is out to get you, Catholics are always getting picked on, bla bla bla. Well, there’s a billion Catholics (the largest religion in the US), yet atheists are only a small sliver of the population. Maybe we should start to whine like you guys do. Ahhh, we’re always getting picked on by religious fanatics and zealots, people are always trying to shove their ancient mythology down our throats, etc. etc. etc.
what about my posts are too difficult to understand? I’ve decided a long time ago.
you know it’s funny, in ancient Catholicism people used to wait until the end of their lives to be baptized (because they thought any sin committed after baptism would get them tossed in hell).
As for the selfish rant … typical religious diatribe.
nice poetry …
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
I’ll indulge you; but first tell me why in every world religion god has always shown himself in profound ways to ancient men who lived thousands of years ago (destroying cities, flooding the entire earth, raising men from the dead, turning sticks into snakes and rivers into blood, and so on) yet hasn’t shown himself in an empirically verifiable way to modern man, not even once (at least in any way that can withstand rigorous scrutiny)?
Why?
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srferdave
Guest
He has shown himself in many ways. Many people have witnessed miracles since the time of Jesus. Its not only in the old testament. And if they were so verifiable what would be the point of Faith. Just because you don’t believe in the miracles he has performed doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen. Anyways, I am still waiting for your proof.
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Ross09
Guest
How about the incorrupt bodies of Catholic Saints? Jesus and Mary appearing to people? Eucharistic miracles?
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
the incorrupt bodies of Catholic saints frankly creeps me out. Here’s an example from a Wiki entry (link here). What you call a miracle I call a very macabre and bizarre ritual? As far as the alleged Eucharistic miracles, it’s all nonsense. I mean … man this stuff is strange to me. I guess you can get people to believe anything; but what does the body shown below look like to you? It looks like a dead and half way decomposed corpse to me … tell me why am I wrong to think this way? If this shocks the conscience I’m sorry … but this picture is from a Wikipedia article (I didn’t take it myself & I consider Wiki a “fairly” credible source of info).
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Ross09
Guest
How old is that body, and what should it look like considering how long it has been dead? Why does it creep you out? Are you scared of death?
For a law school graduate, you don’t seem to discern much. All of your posts seem off the cuff, very negative and closed minded, like you are trying to convince yourself of something. You sound so angry and frustrated. I will pray for you.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Of course you think anyone who disagrees with you must be angry, confused, and have an ill thought out position. It’s how we all think isn’t it (it’s called self-love and arrogance).
Anyway, please explain (besides not inquiring more about the body in question) how precisely have my posts been:
- negative
- closed minded
- angry
- frustrated
With regard to the body … the reason I didn’t inquire more is because even if the body has been preserved in its current state for a century (or longer) there’s no way to verify that it hasn’t been tampered with in some way. There’s several ways to preserve biological organisms (that we’ve known about for a long long time). I believe it’s all religious hat tricks (that man has been doing since the time of the Egyptians and Greeks).
People are scared to question their religion because of superstition (which is merely learned behavior). This superstition has been enforced by a lifetime of programming. Yet none of it has any basis in fact. No one here will listen to me, which is fine (even though I’m right). If religion makes you more psychologically comfortable then good for you, I’m one of those people who loves the truth … no matter how harsh.
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josie_L
Guest
Why do you believe in what Josephus had to say about Jesus (although supposedly with some reserve) but you can’t believe in what the writers/historians of the NT had to say about Jesus?oh golly here we go
I never framed my lack of faith as merely a light dose of doubt. You know it’s funny, when you guys run out of arguments you either start inventing stuff or attacking (all that Christian love starts getting hurled in my direction).
As for the charge of blasphemy … religious zealotry is truly unimpressive, but I guess it can have some amusement value. Oh btw I don’t say with any serious conviction that Jesus never existed; I just don’t believe in god. That a man named Jesus existed and had a ministry is recorded by Josephus (notwithstanding the questionable reliability of Josephus, I’m willing to acknowledge it’s somewhat likely his reports were accurate).
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josie_L
Guest
Was there a point in time during your conversion towards Atheism that you were angry at God?
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
No never … like I’ve said it was never an anger issue. Frankly when I was Christian I was able to reconcile the existence of evil & suffering with divine providence & sovereignty quite well (so, that common objection had little to do with my conversion, or I guess deconversion if that’s a word).
It solely about logic for me. When I deconstruct religion it’s obvious to me that it’s untrue.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Because Josephus never said he witnessed anyone raising people from the dead. He merely noted that there was a movement within ancient Palestine of Messianic Jews who were followers of Jesus. I believe at some point in time the truth became skewed, probably deliberately by zealous followers of a man who was probably just a spiritual sage of some sort … and who I imagine was very charismatic. In other words I think most of Christianity was just made up.
Even Judaism and fables of Abraham and Moses, splitting the Red Sea, a god turning the Nile into blood, and all the rest were simply myths that grew into a religion (perhaps because it eventually came to define the identity of the Jewish people). If you compare Judaism with earlier ancient pagan myths of the region, they all have very similar creation stories (and there’s many other similarities as well). These similarities are just to striking to be coincidental … at least from a reasonable perspective.
Interestingly archeologists cannot find a trace of proof for anything like the Exodus anywhere among all the artifacts and historical records of ancient Egypt.
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