i am presbyterian i want to convert ..

[josie_L]

well if it wasn’t you who said that another poster did & you jumped to their defense (which means you inferentially took on their position & the onus was on you to qualify your own position if it differed significantly). Moreover, with regard to the charge that I think religious people are stupid or lazy … I never said (nor inferred) anything of the sort.

I simply say if someone (religious or not) wants the good life then they need to work for it. Our plate of choices begin early, when we decide whether or not to attend college (and our choice of what to major in).

If someone was too lazy to attend college or they didn’t work hard enough in high school (and as a result they’re too stupid) then whose fault is that? It’s their fault, not the government, not societies, not anyone but their own. This is what peeves me about this whole line of thinking.

You guys have this dark worldview that imagines we’re the huddled oppressed masses because we have to pay our Visa bill, our mortgage, and car payment every month. You act like they had it so much better in the glory days of yesteryear. It’s not only you, this is a common theme here in America and yes you’re darn right I think it’s absurd. I don’t find it an overly arduous task to pay my bills each month, it takes less than an hour for goodness sake. I’m glad I have a car, when my ancestors had to walk to work each day. I’m glad I have heating and electricity, my ancestors had to gather wood and procure oil for their lamps. I’m glad we have a currency system and supermarkets, our ancestors had to hunt for their food, sometimes at the risk of their own lives.

So yes indeed I loudly affirm that we have it much better today than our grandparents did, much less our predecessors more remote in time (who were hunter gathers and lived an agrarian existence). Frankly if anything we have it too good. Moreover, most women don’t work out of necessity … they work out of choice. So it’s even wrong to blame society or economics for our latch key households. These are individual choices & it’s not too hard to be successful in America today if we make good choices. This is what people should understand, not that they’re destined for some sort of dark existence because one day they’ll have to pay bills and work for a living. If anything we have much more time today for musings such as religion as compared to our predecessors.

However, at the same time yes we have to work. Don’t get me wrong, if you want to go live in the woods, pitch a tent with your family, hunt for your food, and all the rest … you can probably go ahead and do that. I’m not sure how you figure you’ll have more time to pray or worship god … although you’ll have plenty of more things to pray for (you know, like rain, that you won’t get yourself killed by some bear in the woods while you’re hunting for your food, etc.).

We should optimistic. The world isn’t all gloom and doom … unless you want it to be. It’s funny how you folks always wonder how an atheist can be happy (when it seems we’re really more optimistic about life than anyone)?

Would you say that the 20th century was the worst century humanity has ever experienced?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Would you say that the 20th century was the worst century humanity has ever experienced?

that’s setting up a red herring. What I say is that today we have it better than ever (or more accurately maybe about ten years ago we had it better than ever … but that’s still modern times).

Now you want to bring WWII or Stalin or whatever into this analysis & that’s irrelevant. Was the 20th century the worse century in world history? I say the 20th century gave us both the worse and the best things humanity has ever seen.

Yes, European fascism and communism were horrible, no one denies that. However, American progress has been the beacon of light for the human race. We’ve shown that no longer does man need to remain mired in ancient superstition, racial insanity, old ideas that deny human freedom, etc. We’ve shown the world what man can do. The automobile, electricity, the telephone, radio, television, film, microwaves, computers, the internet, astonishing progress in medical science, and the list can go on endlessly.

Man I love America … and the 20th century was our century. We saved the world, not any god. We are putting mankind on a footing toward peace and prosperity, not any fictitious god.

 

[josie_L]

that’s setting up a red herring. What I say is that today we have it better than ever (or more accurately maybe about ten years ago we had it better than ever … but that’s still modern times).

Now you want to bring WWII or Stalin or whatever into this analysis & that’s irrelevant. Was the 20th century the worse century in world history? I say the 20th century gave us both the worse and the best things humanity has ever seen.

Yes, European fascism and communism were horrible, no one denies that. However, American progress has been the beacon of light for the human race. We’ve shown that no longer does man need to remain mired in ancient superstition, racial insanity, old ideas that deny human freedom, etc. We’ve shown the world what man can do. The automobile, electricity, the telephone, radio, television, film, microwaves, computers, the internet, astonishing progress in medical science, and the list can go on endlessly.

Man I love America … and the 20th century was our century. We saved the world, not any god. We are putting mankind on a footing toward peace and prosperity, not any fictitious god.

No, it is not a red herring. I am asking a perfectly valid question, as you seem to think that with “progression” comes enlightenment. And therefore if we are a people more enlightened, how is it that we committed the worst atrocities in the history of mankind in the 20th century than we had in all the combined centuries of the past. Now, my next question is this: How much do the worst things derived in the 20th century outweigh the best things? I think that the “worst things” quite outstrip the best. So, I am going to ask again, was the 20th century the worst century ever in the history of Mankind?

P.S. I would say that the 20th century was a century that belonged to the tyrants. Although, I thank the freedom fighters such as Americans and others (such as Canadians) who fought valiantly against oppression.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

No, it is not a red herring. I am asking a perfectly valid question, as you seem to think that with “progression” comes enlightenment. And therefore if we are a people more enlightened, how is it that we committed the worst atrocities in the history of mankind in the 20th century than we had in all the combined centuries of the past. Now, my next question is this: How much do the worst things derived in the 20th century outweigh the best things? I think that the “worst things” quite outstrip the best. So, I am going to ask again, was the 20th century the worst century ever in the history of Mankind?

P.S. I would say that the 20th century was a century that belonged to the tyrants. Although, I thank the freedom fighters such as Americans and others (such as Canadians) who fought valiantly against oppression.

see that goes to my assertion that Christians view the glass as half empty and atheists (ironically enough, as I’ve only recently learned) view the glass as half full.

the tyrants do not get the 20th century in my book … nor should they in anyone’s book. The USA gets the 20th century. What still remains of 20th century tyranny in this world? Not a darn thing right … but what still remains of American influence? It permeates everywhere.

Case closed … don’t mess with Uncle Sam cause we always win in the end!!! Oh yeah, Canada is very cool in my book too (they’ve always been right there with us, like our little brother).

 

[James1982]

Hi lesonal,

I know I’m coming really late to this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in that it could actually take 3 years just to decide between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

This post wins; thread over. I tip my hat to you, sir. :tiphat: Well played, well played indeed.

As to the original poster, I have nothing to add but only would advise him/her to seek truth wherever he/she can find it.

 

[josie_L]

see that goes to my assertion that Christians view the glass as half empty and atheists (ironically enough, as I’ve only recently learned) view the glass as half full.

the tyrants do not get the 20th century in my book … nor should they in anyone’s book. The USA gets the 20th century. What still remains of 20th century tyranny in this world? Not a darn thing right … but what still remains of American influence? It permeates everywhere.

Case closed … don’t mess with Uncle Sam cause we always win in the end!!! Oh yeah, Canada is very cool in my book too (they’ve always been right there with us, like our little brother).

I am a very positive thinking person, but we’re talking about 20th century history here. And in the 20th century, there was a slew of tyrants that made life on earth a realistic hell. Yes, in the end the good guys won, but that doesn’t negate the fact that tens of millions upon millions of people were persecuted, tortured, and/or killed all in the name of ideologies (so maybe I shouldn’t say that the 20th century belonged to the tyrants as much as it came pretty close to it).

As for stating what still remains of 20th century tyranny today? Take a look at Palestine and Israel. That was a mess, my American friend, that was started as a result of WWII.

You still haven’t answer my question; is the 20th century the worst century in the history of mankind? Would this be called badgering the witness?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I am a very positive thinking person, but we’re talking about 20th century history here. And in the 20th century, there was a slew of tyrants that made life on earth a realistic hell. Yes, in the end the good guys won, but that doesn’t negate the fact that tens of millions upon millions of people were persecuted, tortured, and/or killed all in the name of ideologies (so maybe I shouldn’t say that the 20th century belonged to the tyrants as much as it came pretty close to it).

As for stating what still remains of 20th century tyranny today? Take a look at Palestine and Israel. That was a mess, my American friend, that was started as a result of WWII.

You still haven’t answer my question; is the 20th century the worst century in the history of mankind? Would this be called badgering the witness?

well my Canadian friend … isn’t it nice to know our European ancestors started all this baloney and not us? We’re working on it … but it’s work in progress. Who knows whether Israel was a good idea or not, but at this point there’s no reversing it … so anyways.

Bottom line … always place your bets on the USA, we always win in the end. It’s not even to tout our successes in an arrogant way … because our victories equate to victory for all concerned. In fact those who initially thought they lost wind up winning far more than we do. They start with insanity and we bring them light. Like Jesus and Buddha … except we’re the real light. Human freedom … can there be a greater gift?

I say the heck with ancient mythology … let’s celebrate logic and continue in our vigilance to free humanity from their dark existence and ancient nonsense. In this vein I’m proud we went to Iraq … and I believe long term Bush will be viewed as a hero. I also freely place my confidence in our new commander and chief, because there’s just something about America, I can’t explain it … but we’re always who the world looks to.

The weak, the oppressed, the hungry, the downtrodden, etc. look to America for their salvation, because they know we’re real salvation … not just fairy tales in story books. I hope we can free Darfur and put Africa and Latin America on a firm footing toward self reliance. I hope we ultimately succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and bring them freedom, the greatest gift. What is grace, can there be a greater grace than freedom? There’s probably no god … but there’s an America who runs a close second.

 

[josie_L]

well my Canadian friend … isn’t it nice to know our European ancestors started all this baloney and not us? We’re working on it … but it’s work in progress. Who knows whether Israel was a good idea or not, but at this point there’s no reversing it … so anyways.

Bottom line … always place your bets on the USA, we always win in the end. It’s not even to tout our successes in an arrogant way … because our victories equate to victory for all concerned. In fact those who initially thought they lost wind up winning far more than we do. They start with insanity and we bring them light. Like Jesus and Buddha … except we’re the real light. Human freedom … can there be a greater gift?

I say the heck with ancient mythology … let’s celebrate logic and continue in our vigilance to free humanity from their dark existence and ancient nonsense. In this vein I’m proud we went to Iraq … and I believe long term Bush will be viewed as a hero. I also freely place my confidence in our new commander and chief, because there’s just something about America, I can’t explain it … but we’re always who the world looks to.

The weak, the oppressed, the hungry, the downtrodden, etc. look to America for their salvation, because they know we’re real salvation … not just fairy tales in story books. I hope we can free Darfur and put Africa and Latin America on a firm footing toward self reliance. I hope we ultimately succeed in Iraq and Afghanistan, and bring them freedom, the greatest gift. What is grace, can there be a greater grace than freedom? There’s probably no god … but there’s an America who runs a close second.

Darn it, I accidently erased my whole post, this is me attempting to write a second time.

Well, then, I wanted to make the point that, for much of its existence America has been a Christian nation, it still is (although with a lessening force), has such, did it never occur to you that the principles/practices of Christianity enforced by Americans throughout the ages has had a positive effect on the successes of America? I mean just look at the what the “protestant work ethic” has done in its role in enabling America to be a force of Industrial might . Anyways, I truly believe that God has blessed America for her Christian faithfulness, and quite honestly, I hope He continues to do so. I believe many key aspects of Christianity play a positive role in attaining a well-functioning society. And freedom, which is a gift of God, is to be appreciated and sought after (and God bless those who fought and keep fighting the good fight), but it should not be exalted as some kind of God in and of itself. It should in no way replace grace, which is the ultimate freedom, the gift of eternal life. God bless you, my American friend.

 

[DiesMikael]

I would suggest you just ask your parents if they mind you convert, and if they don’t then surely you would not be disobeying them by converting.

The catechism says the 4 commandment involves: Obedience that requires the child to obey his parents as long as he lives at home "when it is for his good or the good of the family except when that obedience requires the child to do something he deems to be morally wrong.

I don’t know if you want to classify you being forced to go against your own conviction regarding what you personally belief as “morally wrong”… but I don’t think it is such a far-fetched argument to make.

Plus, would it have dire consequences for you or your family if you converted?

We can’t know that.

But I don’t think honoring your parents means you obey them in everything, specially when it comes to forcing you to believe something you don’t think is the truth.

Just my 5 cents.

 

[DiesMikael]

As for stating what still remains of 20th century tyranny today? Take a look at Palestine and Israel. That was a mess, my American friend, that was started as a result of WWII.

I don’t think the state of Israel was a result of WWII, more likely because of the spread of communism and anti-jew pogroms that resulted in growing number of jewish refugees in Palestine

Not that is matters much. Just wanted to suggest a more plausible idea.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Darn it, I accidently erased my whole post, this is me attempting to write a second time.

Well, then, I wanted to make the point that, for much of its existence America has been a Christian nation, it still is (although with a lessening force), has such, did it never occur to you that the principles/practices of Christianity enforced by Americans throughout the ages has had a positive effect on the successes of America? I mean just look at the what the “protestant work ethic” has done in its role in enabling America to be a force of Industrial might . Anyways, I truly believe that God has blessed America for her Christian faithfulness, and quite honestly, I hope He continues to do so. I believe many key aspects of Christianity play a positive role in attaining a well-functioning society. And freedom, which is a gift of God, is to be appreciated and sought after (and God bless those who fought and keep fighting the good fight), but it should not be exalted as some kind of God in and of itself. It should in no way replace grace, which is the ultimate freedom, the gift of eternal life. God bless you, my American friend.

I hate when that happens (it happens to me frequently … makes me want to toss my laptop out the window, but it was too expensive … LOL).

Anyway, I hate to point out the obvious, but you guys constantly fight with protestants and aver they lack almost any positive virtue whatsoever … yet now you appeal to the protestant work ethic? I think in many of our discussions you and other Catholic posters were berating how hard we work in this country … yet now you applaud work (even the protestant work ethic) to win your point? Hmmmmm (as I’m scratching my head)

… not to nit pick (but it’s just too obvious not to point out).

 

[josie_L]

I hate when that happens (it happens to me frequently … makes me want to toss my laptop out the window, but it was too expensive … LOL).

Anyway, I hate to point out the obvious, but you guys constantly fight with protestants and aver they lack almost any positive virtue whatsoever … yet now you appeal to the protestant work ethic? I think in many of our discussions you and other Catholic posters were berating how hard we work in this country … yet now you applaud work (even the protestant work ethic) to win your point? Hmmmmm (as I’m scratching my head)

… not to nit pick (but it’s just too obvious not to point out).

Firstly, we are not fighting, we are arguing out our differences; and these differences happen to be important to us and our Protestant brethren because it is relevant to Truth. Secondly, the Protestant work ethic is not doctrine so I needn’t view it skeptically. And thirdly, the CC has many good things to say about Protestants. I myself especially like their enthusiasm. Anyways, don’t you bicker with your brother and sister at all? I kind of view Protestants in like manner. And just for the record, there is a decidely anti-catholic stance/approach that some of our Protestant posters take when writing out their posts. This is not to say that some of our Catholic posters can’t at times be rude, but we have never claimed that they are not Christian. I have since the course of writing my posts have had people throw in question my Christianity. I take offense and rightly so when confronted with this, but I have always played fair.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t think the state of Israel was a result of WWII, more likely because of the spread of communism and anti-jew pogroms that resulted in growing number of jewish refugees in Palestine

Not that is matters much. Just wanted to suggest a more plausible idea.

Well, what ensued during WWII, i.e., the Holocaust, had a great impact on the necessity of forming a Jewish homeland, I believe it was Lord Balfour of England (as part of the U.N.)that put out the idea of taking what was Palestine and partitioning it to create the state of Israel. And so it was in the year of 1948 that the state of Israel was formed.

 

[Peter_J]

This post wins; thread over. I tip my hat to you, sir. :tiphat: Well played, well played indeed.

LOL. Thanks, James. I didn’t even realize I’d said something remarkable.

 

[spankyg]

I hate when that happens (it happens to me frequently … makes me want to toss my laptop out the window, but it was too expensive … LOL).

Anyway, I hate to point out the obvious, but you guys constantly fight with protestants and aver they lack almost any positive virtue whatsoever … yet now you appeal to the protestant work ethic? I think in many of our discussions you and other Catholic posters were berating how hard we work in this country … yet now you applaud work (even the protestant work ethic) to win your point? Hmmmmm (as I’m scratching my head)

… not to nit pick (but it’s just too obvious not to point out).

humble_in_doubt, are you athiest? Or are you agnostic?

Just curious, and it’s not like we are on topic anyway.

 

[Nino]

First congratulations on your courage and faith…it is not easy to do what you propose to do! The blood of martyrs runs thru your veins. I read 'A Vatican LIfe line 44" by Major William Simpson…also a presbyterian from Scotland who was a tank commander in ww2,captured in North Africa,sent to Italy to a concentration camp,escaped,make his way to Rome ,and worked in the underground with Catholic Prelate, Monsg,Hugh OFlaherty…saving thousands of lives…I had the high honor of knowing Major Simpson…his words on the Catholic Church caused his church to disown him but so what…he faced tougher enemies…so go with it.may God sustain you in your quest for the Truth…amen

 

[DiesMikael]

Well, what ensued during WWII, i.e., the Holocaust, had a great impact on the necessity of forming a Jewish homeland, I believe it was Lord Balfour of England (as part of the U.N.)that put out the idea of taking what was Palestine and partitioning it to create the state of Israel. And so it was in the year of 1948 that the state of Israel was formed.

I would love to continue this dialogue but since it is kinda off topic I don’t think I will.

Will say this: Sure the holocaust did add to the growing number of jewish refugees in Palestine but I would not go so far as to say the holocaust was a major factor in the birth of Israel.

I would rather say it was began with the wave of jews coming to Israel because of communist pogroms which led to a much stronger presence of Zionism in Palestine and then having the british trying to equalize the growing tension between the arabs and jews in Palestine deciding it would be best to split it between the two.

What caused the state of Israel is such an interesting topic, but like I said; Bit off topic, so sorry about that.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble_in_doubt, are you athiest? Or are you agnostic?

Just curious, and it’s not like we are on topic anyway.

well I guess I’m someone who simply says religion is false, yet I don’t discount the possibility of something out there that we don’t know about. There’s a scale of atheism. Not even a good scientist would discount the possibility that other things exist in the universe, within another dimension, or wherever – whom are more powerful and advanced than we are. If such a thing is out there who can imagine what form it takes. However, I do believe positively religion is false.

The problem is with religion is its obviously false, whereas simply believing anything is possible is logical. I am an atheist though … I wouldn’t say I’m merely agnostic.

 

[Good_Fella]

shouldn’t you ask your parents first? Doesn’t your bible say obey thy mother and father …

just askin!

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his own household.”
Matthew 10, 34-36

“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me.”
*Matthew 10, 37 *

One wouldn’t be dishonoring his parents, whether they are Presbyterian or Jewish, by becoming a Catholic if he wishes to convert to draw closer to our Lord as his disciple. But until he is of legal age, he should obey his parents and abide by their will. Still he is free to attend Mass on Sundays on his own unless his parents strictly forbid him. He doesn’t have to tell them where he’s been unless they ask him. Jesus himself slipped away from his parents to preach in the temple when he was twelve, and after they found him and returned home he continued to obey them as he always did in keeping with the fourth commandment.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[josie_L]

well I guess I’m someone who simply says religion is false, yet I don’t discount the possibility of something out there that we don’t know about. There’s a scale of atheism. Not even a good scientist would discount the possibility that other things exist in the universe, within another dimension, or wherever – whom are more powerful and advanced than we are. If such a thing is out there who can imagine what form it takes. However,** I do believe positively** religion is false.

The problem is with religion is its obviously false, whereas simply believing anything is possible is logical. I am an atheist though … I wouldn’t say I’m merely agnostic.

Put aside religion for a moment, and ask yourself the question, why do you believe that the idea of a God is false? I mean greater minds than yours, such as Albert Einstein, were theists. And from the above paragraph, you state “I don’t discount the possibility of something out there that we don’t know about.” How do you reconcile what you’ve just said while claiming your an Atheist?