i am presbyterian i want to convert ..

[humble_in_doubt]

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche

In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point.
Friedrich Nietzsche

It is impossible to suffer without making someone pay for it; every complaint already contains revenge. (not sure if I agree, but I can see what he means to an extent)
Friedrich Nietzsche

It is not a lack of love, but a lack of friendship that makes unhappy marriages.
Friedrich Nietzsche (hey, I actually agree with him on this one)

One ought to hold on to one’s heart; for if one lets it go, one soon loses control of the head too.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Not necessity, not desire - no, the love of power is the demon of men. Let them have everything - health, food, a place to live, entertainment - they are and remain unhappy and low-spirited: for the demon waits and waits and will be satisfied.
Friedrich Nietzsche (I agree again )

One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.
Friedrich Nietzsche

One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly.
Friedrich Nietzsche (wow, this should be the slogan for euthanasia enthusiasts).

Perhaps I know best why it is man alone who laughs; he alone suffers so deeply that he had to invent laughter.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Maybe you can help me to understand what he means by some of these quotes I posted.

I think their meaning is pretty apparent don’t you? Can you find anything here you would seriously disagree with (leaving aside his comments on Christianity)?

With regard to his “die proudly” comment I don’t think Nietzsche supported the idea of euthanasia (he himself had brain cancer & never tried to commit suicide as far as I know – but it has been well over ten years since I seriously studied Nietzsche so I could be wrong). He was also prone to hyperbole in a big way (I think it’s a German thing).

The maxim that one must have chaos within ones self is such a beautiful statement to me. What is a quite confined life? It’s a lesser life IMO.Also, who can argue with his “don’t let go of your heart” comment?

As far as hope is the worse of all evils – such a true statement. After all what is the value of false hope? Nothing at all …

If you lack water, dig a well. If your life is boring … make it exciting. If you live in a place you don’t like … make it better or move. These are real things – not false hope. There really is water under the water table. There really are great places on earth. Anyone can choose to live an interesting life, etc. Imagine all the precious time wasted by billions of people believing in false mythology that isn’t real & offers exactly nothing.

 

[josie_L]

I think their meaning is pretty apparent don’t you? Can you find anything here you would seriously disagree with (leaving aside his comments on Christianity)?

With regard to his “die proudly” comment I don’t think Nietzsche supported the idea of euthanasia (he himself had brain cancer & never tried to commit suicide as far as I know – but it has been well over ten years since I seriously studied Nietzsche so I could be wrong). He was also prone to hyperbole in a big way (I think it’s a German thing).

The maxim that one must have chaos within ones self is such a beautiful statement to me. What is a quite confined life? It’s a lesser life IMO.Also, who can argue with his “don’t let go of your heart” comment?

As far as hope is the worse of all evils – such a true statement. After all what is the value of false hope? Nothing at all …

If you lack water, dig a well. If your life is boring … make it exciting. If you live in a place you don’t like … make it better or move. These are real things – not false hope. There really is water under the water table. There really are great places on earth. Anyone can choose to live an interesting life, etc. Imagine all the precious time wasted by billions of people believing in false mythology that isn’t real & offers exactly nothing.

Francis, I’ll answer your questions concerning Nietzche (albeit later during the day) but I wanted to tell you that there are other questions directed to you in the page preceding this one. Can you answer them?

 

[DLClark]

I am 15 now ia m what i am becouse of my parents, but i want to convert to catholicsm or orthodox…becouse they came earlier…uhhh how do i propose of doing so?

Why? What in Protestantism do you not like.
Here is a question for.
Q. Do you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven?

 

[Tomster]

Why? What in Protestantism do you not like.
Here is a question for.
Q. Do you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven?

A. No one knows for sure. We will know for sure the split second after we die where our works will follow us.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

If anyone were to listen to me Bob I’d advise them (as long as they had sufficient self-control and intellectual fortitude) to give up religion all together (because quite simply it’s not true). I a big fan of the real world – and fantasy land has little appeal for me.

What has that to do with what I sent you? By the way, Nietzsche was the wise acre that Hitler used to form his great way of thinking about the Master Race. Really fine philosophy of life. Saying religion is this or that is not reasonable if no reasons are given for the statement. bob

 

[humble_in_doubt]

What has that to do with what I sent you? By the way, Nietzsche was the wise acre that Hitler used to form his great way of thinking about the Master Race. Really fine philosophy of life. Saying religion is this or that is not reasonable if no reasons are given for the statement. bob

obviously Bob you’ve never read Nietzsche. Suffice it to say Nietzsche hated racism and racists. Hitler liked him sure … but if you want to begin to parse out who influenced Hitler the most, then let’s look at a few quotes shall we:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Now you’ve never heard me define Hitler as a Christian … however, to use the fact that he liked Nietzsche’s philosophy to build your straw man of guilt by association is not only illogical, but it cheapens your argument & it sounded, well, sort of bitter to be honest?

 

[josie_L]

obviously Bob you’ve never read Nietzsche. Suffice it to say Nietzsche hated racism and racists. Hitler liked him sure … but if you want to begin to parse out who influenced Hitler the most, then let’s look at a few quotes shall we:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Now you’ve never heard me define Hitler as a Christian … however, to use the fact that he liked Nietzsche’s philosophy to build your straw man of guilt by association is not only illogical, but it cheapens your argument & it sounded, well, sort of bitter to be honest?

I have read that Nietzsche’s philosophy did influence fascism (the idea of a superman . . .etc.). And the above comments were nothing more than rhetoric to garner support from the masses (giving them a false sense of security).

 

[josie_L]

**Comment #1

Imagine all the precious time wasted by billions of people believing in false mythology that isn’t real & offers exactly nothing.

Comment #2

I know what religion is – opiate for the masses. As for me … I don’t like opiates

Comment #3

I’m a big fan of the real world – and fantasy land has little appeal for me. **

How dare you treat what I believe in so callously, it shows a disrespect for the person to whom you’re speaking to. I tried to be good-natured, but your statements kept getting more and more hurtful. You’ve just trivialized my whole life by insulting the God that I love with all my heart. . . and you knew this. I also expected you to conduct yourself with civility but you have chosen to be patronizing and condescending instead. And furthermore, you’ve just disrespected an 80 year old man, with whom you got angry just because he had the audacity to correlate Nietzsche with Hitler/fascism. I don’t think I want to say anymore, except, God bless you Francis.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

obviously Bob you’ve never read Nietzsche. Suffice it to say Nietzsche hated racism and racists. Hitler liked him sure … but if you want to begin to parse out who influenced Hitler the most, then let’s look at a few quotes shall we:

"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."

[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exposed."

[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on his personal Christian feelings. Published in "My New Order", quoted in Freethought Today April 1990]

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

"Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve."

[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"

[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]

Now you’ve never heard me define Hitler as a Christian … however, to use the fact that he liked Nietzsche’s philosophy to build your straw man of guilt by association is not only illogical, but it cheapens your argument & it sounded, well, sort of bitter to be honest?

It’s not guilt by association but guilt by adaptation. Please give me your sources on Hitler’s statements. bob

 

[PA650]

I have read that Nietzsche’s philosophy did influence fascism (the idea of a superman . . .etc.). And the above comments were nothing more than rhetoric to garner support from the masses (giving them a false sense of security).

I have heard of Nietzsche’s supposed influence on fascist ideology, at least Hitler’s version of fascism. Although I find that assertion to be a distortion of his philosophical points. Not a similar example, but I now and again read about Luther’s antisemitism being an influence on the Holocaust, which reminded me of your claim linking the thoughts of Nietzsche to fascism.

 

[josie_L]

I have heard of Nietzsche’s supposed influence on fascist ideology, at least Hitler’s version of fascism. Although I find that assertion to be a distortion of his philosophical points. Not a similar example, but I now and again read about Luther’s antisemitism being an influence on the Holocaust, which reminded me of your claim linking the thoughts of Nietzsche to fascism.

Yes, I have heard of this too (Luther’s antisemitism influencing the Holocaust), I don’t necesssarily believe it, but I guess his remarks didn’t help either. I think there are many factors that led to the Holocaust - German pride and nationalism, the aftermath of the War, the Depression, Darwinism, a history of anti-semitism, certain philosophies . . . etc.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

It’s not guilt by association but guilt by adaptation. Please give me your sources on Hitler’s statements. bob

I gave sources (under each quote you’ll find its source – most are from his book). Secondly, have you ever read Nietzsche? Do you have the faintest idea what you’re talking about?

Can you provide a single racist quote from Nietzsche? Of course not … because there is none (accept within the space between your ears).

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Yes, I have heard of this too (Luther’s antisemitism influencing the Holocaust), I don’t necesssarily believe it, but I guess his remarks didn’t help either. I think there are many factors that led to the Holocaust - German pride and nationalism, the aftermath of the War, the Depression, Darwinism, a history of anti-semitism, certain philosophies . . . etc.

Of course Hitler was Catholic not Lutheran.

Let’s see if I’m following correctly.

1. a church uses fear tactics to scare peasants out of their scarce money in order to repay loans it used to enhance the lavish living standards of its leaders; loans taken from relatives of the church hierarchy (where the conflict of interest & corruption couldn’t be more obvious).
2. then a man rises up and inspires his people to rebel against this church. Indeed that man initially didn’t want to rebel – but hoped to rectify the situation (not knowing the corruption went right up to the very top).
3. the church vilifies this man, who was only fighting and advocating on behalf of his people, a people who again the church was clearly exploiting.
4. the church continues to vilify this medieval man in the modern era – even accusing him of providing a source of inspiration for fascism (and the holocaust).
5. ironically the man responsible for fascism and the holocaust belonged to the church in question.

These are the objective facts.

If this behavior were present in an individual we would call him or her a sociopath. I’m left wondering – how do we define institutional sociopathy? Hmmm … I think I just did

 

[josie_L]

Of course Hitler was Catholic not Lutheran.

Let’s see if I’m following correctly.

1. a church uses shameful fear tactics to scare peasants out of their scarce money in order to repay loans it used to enhance the lavish living standards of its leaders; loans taken from relatives of the church hierarchy (where the conflict of interest & corruption couldn’t be more obvious).
2. then a man rises up and inspires his people to rebel against this church. Indeed that man initially didn’t want to rebel – but hoped to rectify the situation (not knowing the corruption went right up to the very top).
3. the church vilifies this man, who was only fighting and advocating on behalf of his people, a people who again the church was clearly exploiting.
4. the church continues to vilify this medieval man in the modern era – even accusing him of providing a source of inspiration for fascism (and the holocaust).
5. ironically the man responsible for fascism and the holocaust belonged to the church in question.

These are the objective facts.

If this behavior were present in an individual we would call him or her a sociopath. I’m left wondering – how do we define institutional sociopathy? Hmmm … I think I just did

You win Francis, the CC is horrible and bad!

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Hitler was also Austrian, so what?

Gee it’s never significant when the tables are turned huh? But the fact that Hitler read a few Nietzsche books makes Nietzsche the inspiration for the Third Reich ay (forget about the fact that Hitler was born and raised Roman Catholic).

Once again – classic sociopathy.

It gets better though – because even during his reign as chancellor of German Hitler still professed to be a Catholic. This makes it real difficult to believe he was true to the call of Friedrich Nietzsche (who not only was an atheist – but was THE all time atheist who gave a new meaning to the word for goodness sake).

So whatever …

 

[humble_in_doubt]

You win Francis, the CC is horrible and bad!

hey … you said it not me

 

[josie_L]

Gee it’s never significant when the tables are turned huh? But the fact that Hitler read a few Nietzsche books makes Nietzsche the inspiration for the Third Reich (forget about the fact that Hitler was born and raised Roman Catholic).

Once again – classic sociopathy.

Then I too am a sociopath, Francis! I won’'t argue with you on this matter anymore. And I won’t be riled by your comments either. Go follow your God, Nietzsche and be happy! You obviously can’t stomach any criticism of him (because you so faithfully adhere to his philosophy).

 

[josie_L]

hey … you said it not me

God bless you, Francis.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Then I too am a sociopath, Francis! I won’'t argue with you on this matter anymore. And I won’t be riled by your comments either. Go follow your God, Nietzsche and be happy! You obviously can’t stomach any criticism of him (because you so faithfully adhere to his philosophy).

No – it’s you who can’t stomach critique of your church. Nietzsche isn’t even my favorite philosopher
,

 

[Bob_McKissick]

I gave sources (under each quote you’ll find its source – most are from his book). Secondly, have you ever read Nietzsche? Do you have the faintest idea what you’re talking about?

Can you provide a single racist quote from Nietzsche? Of course not … because there is none (accept within the space between your ears).

I must confess an ignorance of Nietzsche and a real indifference to him and the philosophers who are like him. They were pre-Einstein and the Big Bang. Materialism is based on pre-atomic theories. The here and now, the sensible and material. With the A-bomb Materialism was made immaterial non-sense as mater was reduced to energy. Aristotle has brilliantly survived the Blast. bob