i am presbyterian i want to convert ..

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no there was no mistranslation … Chrysostom was attacking BOTH Jews and Judaizing Christians; and he said some pretty horrible things against the Jews in his homilies (unbiased scholars are pretty unanimous – Chrysostom was the most antisemitic prominent Christian figure in history).

Anyway I have no interest in convincing you to like Luther (obviously I don’t expect a committed Catholic to like Luther) … I’m just glad we have no church controlling us and our government these days (and I credit his rebellion, at least in part, for that).
You know Francis, you’d be surprised to know that I’m happy that there is a separation of State and Church as well. However, I’m not happy that it happened at the expense of Truth, by the bedlam of Christian beliefs that have been birthed by the reformation. I don’t see the reformation in a positive light as you do.

P.S. I do not mean that the Church or its members shouldn’t play a role in bringing about changes in our society.
 
You know Francis, you’d be surprised to know that I’m happy that there is a separation of State and Church as well. However, I’m not happy that it happened at the expense of Truth by the bedlam of Christian beliefs that have been birthed by the reformation. I don’t see the reformation in a positive light as you do.

P.S. I do not mean that the Church or its members shouldn’t play a role in bringing about changes in our society.
to me anything that drives man toward the realization that we don’t need to imagine fictitious gods in order to behave ourselves or act with civility is a step in the right direction. The only reason why I think the reformation helped in that regard is because it eventually forced religious tolerance (since the only other option would have been perpetual civil war) & as a result it’s become exceedingly acceptable to have no religious preference at all.

Most of our founders were only moderately religious (and some only barely religious). They were enlightenment thinkers in the tradition of John Locke. These were the people who have brought us to where we are today. We’ve only acquired freedom, useful philosophy, scientific and medical advancement, etc. by rebelling against religion; never by capitulating to it and its theocratic tendencies.
 
to me anything that drives man toward the realization that we don’t need to imagine fictitious gods in order to behave ourselves or act with civility is a step in the right direction. The only reason why I think the reformation helped in that regard is because it eventually forced religious tolerance (since the only other option would have been perpetual civil war) & as a result it’s become exceedingly acceptable to have no religious preference at all.

Most of our founders were only moderately religious (and some only barely religious). They were enlightenment thinkers in the tradition of John Locke. These were the people who have brought us to where we are today. We’ve only acquired freedom, useful philosophy, scientific and medical advancement, etc. by rebelling against religion; never by capitulating to it and its theocratic tendencies.
How was your restudy of Aristotle’s logic? You seem to have disappeared form sight. I think you are doing a really good job of throwing up smoke to vail your subconscious urge to return to the Church. Christ said, “I would that you were hot or cold, but being luke warn I will puke you out of My mouth!” Your are cold now, but will heat up in the future. You are in my prayers. bob
 
How was your restudy of Aristotle’s logic? You seem to have disappeared form sight. I think you are doing a really good job of throwing up smoke to vail your subconscious urge to return to the Church. Christ said, “I would that you were hot or cold, but being luke warn I will puke you out of My mouth!” Your are cold now, but will heat up in the future. You are in my prayers. bob
Bob,
I also get the feeling that Humble is resisting and it is a matter of time before he surrenders. He is in my prayers as well. 🙂
 
How was your restudy of Aristotle’s logic? You seem to have disappeared form sight. I think you are doing a really good job of throwing up smoke to vail your subconscious urge to return to the Church. Christ said, “I would that you were hot or cold, but being luke warn I will puke you out of My mouth!” Your are cold now, but will heat up in the future. You are in my prayers. bob
no I’ve been real busy at work the last week (I do have a life you know). Concerning Aristotle … do you know he thought objects of different density (or mass) fall at different rates of speed (obviously the laws of gravity prove him wrong). The real idea theists take from Aristotle is his theory of causation & the idea that there must be a first cause which is not in itself caused. While Aristotle was obviously wrong about many (if not most) things … his work in metaphysics remains important for the validation of theism. However, his theory of causation remains unproven.

You might say discovery of the big bang validates the idea of a first cause, however, how do we know the big bang didn’t have an underlying cause that was itself caused by something else, and that underlying cause wasn’t caused by yet something else, and so on? Frankly, we don’t. We’re not even entirely sure there aren’t hidden dimensions out there (although to spite the misconceptions of many – unification theories like string theory do not propose this, even though they do propose more than four dimensions. However, there are other theories that do propose hidden dimensions or alternate universes).

IMO you give Aristotle way too much credit … when we know he was wrong about many things. The only thing we can say is that his theory of causes (or “first cause” which he proposes is god) cannot be conclusively debunked. This doesn’t mean that there’s not plenty of circumstantial evidence that can be used to debunk the various religions practiced in the world today – because there’s plenty. I think I can make a case against all Abrahamic religions (and other faith systems) quite well … but I cannot prove that there isn’t a first cause that wasn’t itself caused (no one can at this point).

However, even I entertain the idea of a grand architect of some sort. The idea that nature created itself is counter-intuitive (even to a non-theist such as myself).
 
to me anything that drives man toward the realization that we don’t need to imagine fictitious gods in order to behave ourselves or act with civility is a step in the right direction. The only reason why I think the reformation helped in that regard is because it eventually forced religious tolerance (since the only other option would have been perpetual civil war) & as a result it’s become exceedingly acceptable to have no religious preference at all.

Most of our founders were only moderately religious (and some only barely religious). They were enlightenment thinkers in the tradition of John Locke. These were the people who have brought us to where we are today. We’ve only acquired freedom, useful philosophy, scientific and medical advancement, etc. by rebelling against religion; never by capitulating to it and its theocratic tendencies.
Of all the absurdities I’ve heard Francis, you telling me that if society hadn’t rebeled against religion we would still be living in some sort of “dark age”, is tops. I can’t understand how you do not see that were it not for the cultural, philosophical and scientific lineage of the Church which provided the foundation (and more) for modern science, art, you name it, we would not have the advancements we speak and see of today (it still extends its patronage/(name removed by moderator)ut into such fields).

The Church was never anti-science, never anti-medical, never anti-philosophical (heck you even accused her of being too philosophical in her theology).

And I too pray for you.
 
Of all the absurdities I’ve heard Francis, you telling me that if society hadn’t rebeled against religion we would still be living in some sort of “dark age”, is tops. I can’t understand how you do not see that were it not for the cultural, philosophical and scientific lineage of the Church which provided the foundation (and more) for modern science, art, you name it, we would not have the advancements we speak and see of today (it still extends its patronage/(name removed by moderator)ut into such fields).

The Church was never anti-science, never anti-medical, never anti-philosophical (heck you even accused her of being too philosophical in her theology).

And I too pray for you.
First I didn’t say what you’re inferring (I really wish people would stop putting words in my mouth around here). However, if you want to talk about the dark ages … the churches role is a mixed bag. Sure they kept up monasteries; however, they also enforced a very dark theocratic Europe. It wasn’t until rediscovery of early Roman writings (such as the writings of Cicero), which kicked off the renaissance — that Europe finally began to free itself from the grip of the church and once again immerse herself itself in humanism.
 
First I didn’t say what you’re inferring (I really wish people would stop putting words in my mouth around here). However, if you want to talk about the dark ages … the churches role is a mixed bag. Sure they kept up monasteries; however, they also enforced a very dark theocratic Europe. It wasn’t until rediscovery of early Roman writings (such as the writings of Cicero), which kicked off the renaissance — that Europe finally began to free itself from the grip of the church and once again immerse herself itself in humanism.
No, they did not force a “very dark theocratic Europe”, the Church recognized the right of kings and queens to rule, they do not seek to take away their power (although some church members throughout time most certainly abused their positions). The theocracy to which you refer to is more in line with Islam.

the·oc·ra·cy (th-kr-s)
n. pl. the·oc·ra·cies
  1. A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.
  2. A state so governed.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

theocracy
Noun
pl -cies
  1. government by a god or by priests
  2. a community under such government [Greek theos god + kratos power]
    theocrat n
    theocratic adj
    theocratically adv

Collins Essential English Dictionary 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006​

Theocracy
  1. a system of government in which God or a deity is held to be the civil ruler; thearchy.
  2. a system of government by priests; hagiarchy.
  3. a state under such a form of rule. — theocrat, n. — theocratic, adj.
And would the humanism you refer to create the chaos that ensued the reformation? And what happens to a human being when there are emmersed in self-love, that is what I think of “humanism” (the kind of humanism as defined by the Enlightenment)?
 
First I didn’t say what you’re inferring (I really wish people would stop putting words in my mouth around here). However, if you want to talk about the dark ages … the churches role is a mixed bag. Sure they kept up monasteries; however, they also enforced a very dark theocratic Europe. It wasn’t until rediscovery of early Roman writings (such as the writings of Cicero), which kicked off the renaissance — that Europe finally began to free itself from the grip of the church and once again immerse herself itself in humanism.
I also posted this to enlighten people to the fact that the middle ages (500-1500) was not a period of darkness (there was much learning and culture involved in this period):

The Middle Ages lasted for a thousand years and were filled with bloodshed, slavery, superstition, and ignorance!"

Anyone who has attended a history class, conversed with an “enlightened” secularist, or debated an anti-Catholic is familiar with this sort of remark. The Middle Ages, that period from roughly 500 to 1500, sometimes called the “Dark Ages,” is, in the minds of most people, characterized by dim thinking and dull living—not to mention disease and hypocrisy.

Not so, insists the famed French historian and archivist Régine Pernoud (1909–1999). Pernoud wrote numerous books about the Middle Ages, most notably Joan of Arc: By Herself and Witnesses. In Those Terrible Middle Ages! Debunking the Myths, the author has an axe to grind and isn’t afraid to let the sparks fly when it comes to expressing her frustration with the lack of accurate teaching about the Middle Ages. “The Middle Ages is privileged material,” she writes. “One can say what one wants about it with the quasi-certitude of never being contradicted.”

Originally published in 1977 for a French audience, this book is both a helpful introduction to the real Middle Ages and a pithy commentary on the importance of a sound education in history, something many Americans have never been exposed to.

Pernoud notes Chesterton’s statement “that a man is truly a man only when he has looked at the world while standing on his head with his feet in the air,” an observation that captures Pernoud’s ability to right the record by turning stereotypes and fallacies upside down. Her concern is that what passes for an education in history within public schools is often little more than a string of stereotypes held together by the glue of gullibility.

“The Middle Ages still signifies a period of ignorance, mindlessness, or generalized underdevelopment,” she writes, “even if this was the only period of underdevelopment during which cathedrals were built!” Pernoud laments that the strides made in scholarship in this area have yet to reach the general public, a situation that hasn’t changed much since the 1970s, at least on this side of the Atlantic.

The heart of Pernoud’s argument is that the revival of Roman law and the infatuation with Greek and Roman culture that occurred in much of western Europe during the sixteenth century eclipsed all that existed between the “two periods of light, antiquity and the Renaissance.” The intermediate period—the “middle” age—came to be viewed as “crude” and “obscure,” failing to measure up to the eternal standards of ancient Greece and Rome.

In the realm of art the result was “an anathema on the Middle Ages. All that was not in conformity with Greek or Latin modeling was mercilessly rejected” and even purposefully targeted for destruction. But the great cathedrals were all built during the Middle Ages. The literary forms of the epic and the novel were products of the same era, as well as the bound book (codex), which replaced the use of scrolls.

The Middle Ages produced scholars of incredible learning—Isidore of Seville (unofficial patron saint of the Internet, since the structure of his extensive dictionary, Etymologies, was similar to what is now called a database), Bede the Venerable, Gregory of Tours, and Hildegarde of Bingen. The latter is not, as Pernoud demonstrates, an exception: Many women religious were outstanding scholars and theologians. Another, Petronilla of Chemillé, was an abbess who presided over convents of both women and men—at the ripe age of 22.

Far from being a time when women were “oppressed,” the Middle Ages witnessed a flowering of the feminine element in the Church, society, and home. It was in the seventeenth century that women began to lose privileges and authority, essentially reverting to the status of property under the revived Roman law. Similarly, slavery, which had died out during the Middle Ages, emerged again with the “colonial expansion that characterized the classical period.” As Pernoud takes pains to show, the feudal system was a far cry from slavery—despite modern misconceptions––and was a way of life built upon honor, specific rights, and a deep commitment to the agrarian life.

Pernoud also addresses the two issues most commonly mentioned in ordinary conversation about the Middle Ages: the Crusades and the Inquisition. But the former she touches on too briefly, and she provides only a general overview of the historical context of the latter. One wishes she had spent more time on both subjects, especially since they are so misunderstood and are such significant parts of the erroneous perspective many people have about the Middle Ages.

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009revw.asp
 
no I’ve been real busy at work the last week (I do have a life you know). Concerning Aristotle … do you know he thought objects of different density (or mass) fall at different rates of speed (obviously the laws of gravity prove him wrong). The real idea theists take from Aristotle is his theory of causation & the idea that there must be a first cause which is not in itself caused. While Aristotle was obviously wrong about many (if not most) things … his work in metaphysics remains important for the validation of theism. However, his theory of causation remains unproven.

You might say discovery of the big bang validates the idea of a first cause, however, how do we know the big bang didn’t have an underlying cause that was itself caused by something else, and that underlying cause wasn’t caused by yet something else, and so on? Frankly, we don’t. We’re not even entirely sure there aren’t hidden dimensions out there (although to spite the misconceptions of many – unification theories like string theory do not propose this, even though they do propose more than four dimensions. However, there are other theories that do propose hidden dimensions or alternate universes).

IMO you give Aristotle way too much credit … when we know he was wrong about many things. The only thing we can say is that his theory of causes (or “first cause” which he proposes is god) cannot be conclusively debunked. This doesn’t mean that there’s not plenty of circumstantial evidence that can be used to debunk the various religions practiced in the world today – because there’s plenty. I think I can make a case against all Abrahamic religions (and other faith systems) quite well … but I cannot prove that there isn’t a first cause that wasn’t itself caused (no one can at this point).

However, even I entertain the idea of a grand architect of some sort. The idea that nature created itself is counter-intuitive (even to a non-theist such as myself).
Aristotle was completed by St. Thomas. His five proofs of God are convincing. What I can’t get is why a atheist would waste his/her time arguing about the non-existence of God when the Great Oblivion is approaching at break neck speed. If I were an atheist I wouldn’t give a damn what anyone else thought or what was said by some dead German philosopher. I would be doing MY THING 'til the Grime Reaper came to drag my souless bones to the hole I was born to fill. Praying for you! bob
 
Aristotle was completed by St. Thomas. His five proofs of God are convincing. What I can’t get is why a atheist would waste his/her time arguing about the non-existence of God when the Great Oblivion is approaching at break neck speed. If I were an atheist I wouldn’t give a damn what anyone else thought or what was said by some dead German philosopher. I would be doing MY THING 'til the Grime Reaper came to drag my souless bones to the hole I was born to fill. Praying for you! bob
five proofs of God? There are no proofs of god … there’s just conjecture unsupported by any empirical evidence. As for your threat of eternal hell for my sapless soul … golly; can’t you guys come up with new material? The threat of hell thing lost its appeal soon after the average western man became literate for goodness sake 🙂
 
five proofs of God? There are no proofs of god … there’s just conjecture unsupported by any empirical evidence. As for your threat of eternal hell for my sapless soul … golly; can’t you guys come up with new material? The threat of hell thing lost its appeal soon after the average western man became literate for goodness sake 🙂
Well, now!! Look who’s putting words in mouths!! I didn’t mention hell or Hell, you did. I said that Oblivion is where atheists themselves claim to be going not hell. You’re still wasting time with endless arguments that have no purpose if God doesn’t exist. I suggest that you get down on your knees and say, “God, if you exist, show me what you want me to do!” Are you afraid to do this simple thing? Don’t be, just try it! If there is no God it won’t make any difference. It there is a God, you will be surprised. Still waiting a Home for your return with best wishes and prayers, bob mck.
 
Well, now!! Look who’s putting words in mouths!! I didn’t mention hell or Hell, you did. I said that Oblivion is where atheists themselves claim to be going not hell. You’re still wasting time with endless arguments that have no purpose if God doesn’t exist. I suggest that you get down on your knees and say, “God, if you exist, show me what you want me to do!” Are you afraid to do this simple thing? Don’t be, just try it! If there is no God it won’t make any difference. It there is a God, you will be surprised. Still waiting a Home for your return with best wishes and prayers, bob mck.
dude with all due respect … I was raised Catholic, prayed every day for decades, studied theology, and the whole bit. There is nothing else I can do that I haven’t done already. Moreover, it doesn’t matter because the overwhelming evidence tells me conclusively that the bible is simply not true. Whether or not there’s some sort of higher power (frankly I think there probably is) – it’s not the god described by any world religion; that’s for sure!
 
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