I am rather confused about the Apparition in Fatima - 1917

[Harmony1988]

members.chello.nl/~l.de.bondt/fatimaEng.htm

Then Lucia asked, “ Shall I also go to Heaven?” -----“ Yes.”—And Jacinta?”-----“as well”-------“And Francesco?”----“He too, but he must first say a lot of rosaries.”

I’m rather skeptical about these version of events, and I am not sure if this is how exactly it happened, because Francesco is listed as being born in 1908, which means he was only 9 when the Blessed Virgin appeared. At 9 how much could he have sinned for him to say ‘a lot of rosaries’ ?

If not much, how much hope do we have of getting into heaven by looking at these rather depressing set of events…

To further add"

Then Lucia asked about two girls’ aged 16 and 20, who had died recently, if they were in Heaven. “The first is and the second not”. Was the reply.

Of course it’s not mentioned what exactly the 20 year old had done, but all this talk of who is in heaven and who is not is a bit eerie.

 

[Conservative]

members.chello.nl/~l.de.bondt/fatimaEng.htm

I’m rather skeptical about these version of events, and I am not sure if this is how exactly it happened, because Francesco is listed as being born in 1908, which means he was only 9 when the Blessed Virgin appeared. At 9 how much could he have sinned for him to say ‘a lot of rosaries’ ?

If not much, how much hope do we have of getting into heaven by looking at these rather depressing set of events…

To further add"

Of course it’s not mentioned what exactly the 20 year old had done, but all this talk of who is in heaven and who is not is a bit eerie.

I believe in the book, “Our Lady Came to Fatima”, it explained somewhat simply. Perhaps, what sins we have are measured not just by our age, but by mentality and intent - particularly intent and whether or not we’ve expiated or shown sorrow for them. But I agree with you - if a youngster at that age and that time of relative innocence needed to say lots of rosaries, I sure hope they say at least a year’s worth of Gregorian Masses for my soul! (God help me) The 20-year-old we do not know - and let’s face it, it’s between the soul and God.

I got scared out of my skin once I read a post here about how few get to Heaven based on a saint’s writings. Then, in another post reading so many who read the “Diary” of St. Faustina - about Our Lord’s Mercy - even at the moment of death. So, that sure gives us all pause to wonder about these young souls you asked about.

May God help and protect us; Our Lady intercede for us; Our Lord have Mercy on us!

 

[Conservative]

A footnote to my earlier reply - I think the book, “Our Lady Came to Fatima” ***may have explained a little/given some insight ***about Francisco - not others.

 

[marymol]

Having entertained similar thoughts , like o.p. , at one time, on the subject at hand, would like to share the later insight into these messages !

When we consider the hours and minutes of days and years , yes, even for a nine year old, and how little of it may be truly spent to be in touch with God,to seek and do His will, a God with whom one wants to spend eternity , then even several rosaries , to ask for that privilege , would it be too much …this esp. so , since rosary has such an intercessory power , on behalf of others who are in the grip of sin and death -since we get to call on The Mother and thus do the pleasing will of our Lord , to magnify His presence !

In the case of Bl. Francisco, he also had the privilege and thus more responsibility of seeing what happens -( persons going to hell ! ) when one lives, for the littleness or nothingness of this world , in contrast to eternity ,with God’s love and presence !

It is the choice , to diminish one to the state of a worm when compared to the glory of heaven … for Bl.Francisco , it seemed to have become a fire of zeal as seen by his many hours spent in prayer and penance !

As to the girl who , from what I have read , was to be in purgatory ,’ till the end of the world ’ - well, even if that is 2or 300 years, still , compared to eternity …not too much …and may be she is grateful , to be praying for many others to escape hell -and for the eternal joy she gets to share with them for her sufferings !

May many lukewarm hearts be able to recognise the reality of these truths and be able to follow what seems like the narrow path in the midst of a world that seem to offer so much in choices - in paths of hell !

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death !

 

[BennyBoy89]

I’m not bashing anyone’s personal piety, but Fatima kinda freaks me out, although I do include the prayer in my rosary, simply because I like the prayer. Sure, we must “work out our salvation in fear and trembling,” but I’m very uncomfortable with promoting the belief that you can make up for your sins by “praying lots of rosaries.”

St. Louis de Montfort, who I admire in many ways, sometimes comes across that way in his book, The Secret of the Rosary.

One thing that I’ve noticed about many apparitions is that they often say what the people experiencing them want them to say. If the Church approves them, then that’s fine with me, but I think the people that believe in them can sometimes take them too far.

Once again, I am not attacking anyone’s beliefs or private devotions, but expressing my personal feelings.

I happen to have a devotion to the Divine Mercy.

 

[BennyBoy89]

Let me clarify some of my previous statements:

While I don’t believe that by simply praying the rosary will make up for your sins (nothing we do can make up for our sins, that’s why we have God’s grace), I do believe that it is an excellent penance for the sins we’ve comitted.

Make sense? I hope so.

 

[marymol]

Thank you for your posts and the beautiful icon pictures and for being a person pf prayer !

This , in no way to insist that persons have to say the Rosary or be fully devoted to Fatima ( and many persons these days like Divine Mercy devotion the most - another reflection of the richness of the Banquet of our Church !)

As to Bl.Francisco being asked to say many rosaries, we are not told it is because of his own personal sins ;it is concievable that even for a 9 y.o , sins of self will and selfishness , not wanting to obey parents etc: could have been there ; or more likely , as in the case of most, sins of omissions - not wanting to turn our wills to things of eternity, to care for our neighbor or even about our own destiny ! !

Does not those few words to Bl.Francisco help many to ask themselves -’ what shall I do…’ and thus to keep us from the sin of presumption - that mercy is not a ticket to be spent in self will and lukewarmenss but trusting in God to help us to move in the right direction !

Rosary too is God’s merciful way , through pure motherly mercy- to help us to grow in love for God and for neighbor .

It help us to carry out our duty to love our neighbor when we ask Bl.Mother, to pray for those who are at the hour of death - when every second of our lives unfold before us …and we see what could have been …with a moment of our will turned to God …or to ourselves and against God …and we realise what we deserve …

Divine Mercy devotion too may even be the fruit of devotion to Bl.Mother - given to a The Church for having been faithful in given matters, and thus God blessing her even more , to fulfill the need of our times !

Peace !

 

[Eilish_Maura]

• Divine Mercy devotion too may even be the fruit of devotion to Bl.Mother - given to a The Church for having been faithful in given matters, and thus God blessing her even more , to fulfill the need of our times !*

Peace !

Huh??

 

[glenaitken]

Let me clarify some of my previous statements:

While I don’t believe that by simply praying the rosary will make up for your sins (nothing we do can make up for our sins, that’s why we have God’s grace), I do believe that it is an excellent penance for the sins we’ve comitted.

Make sense? I hope so.

Benny, this is the same thing. It’s hard for any one to explain this stuf to a 9 yr old. I see the whole thing as Mary speaking to children on theier level.

 

[marymol]

Huh??

Fatima is subtley and yet profoundly beautiful for the way God shows how He uses the little and weak of this world ( ? paparazzi would be the subtle scornful term by the rich and powerful! ) - to show He cares about small and great things of nations and persons and this at a time when atheistic thinking seemed to have won the world !

Pope John paul 11 was to be the one to show how faithfulness in our Lord’s call for unity would be so richly blessed as seen by the fall of communism and reurgence of faith in those lands after the consecration of Russia ; it was through the same Pope that the prophesied misunderstandings (from mistranslation ! ) about the Divine Mercy devotion was also lifted ! A powerful prophetic message there too - how Church(s) and persons misunderstand the messages …and dogmas …and thus prevented from benefits of mercy and union !

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Fatima is subtley and yet profoundly beautiful for the way God shows how He uses the little and weak of this world ( ? paparazzi would be the subtle scornful term by the rich and powerful! ) - to show He cares about small and great things of nations and persons and this at a time when atheistic thinking seemed to have won the world !

Pope John paul 11 was to be the one to show how faithfulness in our Lord’s call for unity would be so richly blessed as seen by the fall of communism and reurgence of faith in those lands after the consecration of Russia ; it was through the same Pope that the prophesied misunderstandings (from mistranslation ! ) about the Divine Mercy devotion was also lifted ! A powerful prophetic message there too - how Church(s) and persons misunderstand the messages …and dogmas …and thus prevented from benefits of mercy and union !

I do not see any connection between the BVM and the Divine Mercy apparition - nor do I see any reason to give her ‘credit’ on any level for anything about it.

 

[BennyBoy89]

Benny, this is the same thing. It’s hard for any one to explain this stuf to a 9 yr old. I see the whole thing as Mary speaking to children on theier level.

Perhaps you’re right. The Church approves of Fatima, so that’s good enough for me. I just feel that sometimes, devotees of Fatima get too wrapped up in “Fatima” and not the message of Fatima: the Gospel.

 

[Andruschak]

Perhaps you’re right. The Church approves of Fatima, so that’s good enough for me. I just feel that sometimes, devotees of Fatima get too wrapped up in “Fatima” and not the message of Fatima: the Gospel.

Thank you for this “heads up”. I am thinking about a pilgrimage to Fatima in March 2009, staying 6 nights in Fatima.:heaven:

 

[BennyBoy89]

Thank you for this “heads up”. I am thinking about a pilgrimage to Fatima in March 2009, staying 6 nights in Fatima.:heaven:

May God bless your journey, Andruschak. As for me, I’d love to go to the Holy Land one day.

 

[water]

I do not see any connection between the BVM and the Divine Mercy apparition - nor do I see any reason to give her ‘credit’ on any level for anything about it.

I suggest you read the entire book of Saint’s Faustina diary. From there, read other books on Virgin Mary and Passion of Christ.

 

[glenaitken]

Perhaps you’re right. The Church approves of Fatima, so that’s good enough for me. I just feel that sometimes, devotees of Fatima get too wrapped up in “Fatima” and not the message of Fatima: the Gospel.

I think that you’re right, but God will guide them since they are close to His mother. Don’t stress too much about it.

 

[Harmony1988]

Woah, looking at some of these posts, if I’m not in hell, I’d be in purgatory a very, very long time. Longer than 1000 years for sure, though purgatory isn’t really chronologically based, since it’s more to do with wiping out any desire to sin and desiring only God.

 

[SongofShepherds]

I suggest you read the entire book of Saint’s Faustina diary. From there, read other books on Virgin Mary and Passion of Christ.

Also, Mary is in St. Faustina’s diary as well.

---

Speaking about the Brimstone aspect of Fatima,

It took me a while to find the exact photos:

We commonly envision the child visionaries like this:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Jacinta_Francisco_Lucia_Fatima.jpg

Now look at this one:

romancatholicblog.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/fatima_hell.jpg

This is known as a picture of them after the vision of hell. It makes one think!
Kind of scary!

 

[SongofShepherds]

Perhaps you’re right. The Church approves of Fatima, so that’s good enough for me. I just feel that sometimes, devotees of Fatima get too wrapped up in “Fatima” and not the message of Fatima: the Gospel.

Well, what is the message of Fatima? I find this statement errant because a lot of this is probably before your time.

Very clearly, right after World War II, the Blue Army emerges in 1947 with a Fatima Apostolate that gets understandably stronger during the “Red Scare” years of the '50s-'60s and really remains so but not as popular in the following decades, American culture drastically changed and so did the Church. So I would believe to an extent, as the threat of Communism was real, a lot of people came out for Fatima to combat Communism as it is even implicit in the messages and some including the really radical sect of Fatima followers see the message as saving mankind, through consecrating Russia, through saying the Rosary, Making First Friday Devotions to save oneself and wearing the Scapular and they also see the Miracle of the Sun as how serious God was about this message because only God could do that Miracle. Those who truly believe that the Sun danced and spin in Fatima, say it is a Miracle that is unprecedented since Biblical times.

Cuban Missile Crisis? Say a Rosary! So, there are probably some wrapped up in the whole Fatima episode but I think, there were very real concerns. After all, those in support of Pope John Paul II, will say, Russia was consecrated ( a point in contention we know with some, but basically, I believe Russia was consecrated), and the Iron Curtain, the Berlin Wall came down in the late '80s, early '90s.

John Paul II shot, spared his life on May 13th ('80 or '81, around there), Fatima Feastday while in fact, we would see Pope John Paul II, Carol Wojtyla as a challenge to the system of Communism.

So, certainly, Fatima followers can assert a number of issues of why they feel they stand on solid ground in their devotion.

 

[BennyBoy89]

Well, what is the message of Fatima? I find this statement errant because a lot of this is probably before your time.

Very clearly, right after World War II, the Blue Army emerges in 1947 with a Fatima Apostolate that gets understandably stronger during the “Red Scare” years of the '50s-'60s and really remains so but not as popular in the following decades, American culture drastically changed and so did the Church. So I would believe to an extent, as the threat of Communism was real, a lot of people came out for Fatima to combat Communism as it is even implicit in the messages and some including the really radical sect of Fatima followers see the message as saving mankind, through consecrating Russia, through saying the Rosary, Making First Friday Devotions to save oneself and wearing the Scapular and they also see the Miracle of the Sun as how serious God was about this message because only God could do that Miracle. Those who truly believe that the Sun danced and spin in Fatima, say it is a Miracle that is unprecedented since Biblical times.

Cuban Missile Crisis? Say a Rosary! So, there are probably some wrapped up in the whole Fatima episode but I think, there were very real concerns. After all, those in support of Pope John Paul II, will say, Russia was consecrated ( a point in contention we know with some, but basically, I believe Russia was consecrated), and the Iron Curtain, the Berlin Wall came down in the late '80s, early '90s.

John Paul II shot, spared his life on May 13th ('80 or '81, around there), Fatima Feastday while in fact, we would see Pope John Paul II, Carol Wojtyla as a challenge to the system of Communism.

So, certainly, Fatima followers can assert a number of issues of why they feel they stand on solid ground in their devotion.

I completely understand what you are saying, and I meant no disrespect toward those who have a devotion to Fatima. Personally, I just have mixed feelings about it and lack a strong attraction to it in my spirituality. Who knows? Maybe God will show me otherwise one of these days?

I’m glad that you mentioned the Miracle of the Sun though, because that is one thing that does attract me to Fatima.